Requesting member Catya Sher

[Wrayun]

No, thats my point. I dont understand what makes Catya "dangerous." I also dont understand why she is viewed as an intruder.

Seriously?

So as a non-Pukhtoon, non-Muslim, or someone that doesn't disclose any of that and I constantly get involved in Muslim and Pukhtoon affairs, without ever disclosing my own position or affiliations, I wouldn't be considered an intruder?

She questions Toramana, Osho, Baygham etc. who are Pukhtoons...she also pats those people on the back who question Admin Khan, PF staff, and their motives...she is not an intruder? She questions who is who, and why, and where. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. enough is enough.

I admit, Catya is not dangerous, she is harmless, she is a cute little butterfly. Though I want to know, what gives her the right to get involved in discussions when she is not part of the ethnicity, or religion? Where does such "passion" come from? Why she has those beliefs? Why she question certain ethnic traits, religious beliefs, political views...in regards to Pukhtoons and Muslims.

She is very well intruding. Sometimes when requested not to, especially by me. When she does intrude, specifically addressing me, I will call her out.

It's nothing personal.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Seriously?

So as a non-Pukhtoon, non-Muslim, or someone that doesn't disclose any of that and I constantly get involved in Muslim and Pukhtoon affairs, without ever disclosing my own position or affiliations, I wouldn't be considered and an intruder?

She questions Toramana, Osho, Baygham etc. who are Pukhtoons...she also pats those people on the back who question Admin Khan, PF staff, and their motives...she is not an intruder? She questions who is who, and why, and where. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. enough is enough.

I admit, Catya is not dangerous, she is harmless, she is a cute little butterfly. Though I want to know, what gives her the right to get involved in discussions when she is not part of the ethnicity, or religion? Where does such "passion" come from? Why she has those beliefs? Why she question certain ethnic traits, religious beliefs, political views...in regards to Pukhtoons and Muslims.

She is very well intruding. Sometimes when requested not to, especially by me. When she does intrude, specifically addressing me, I will call her out.

It's nothing personal.

Hows it any different than when Edge gets blasted by Faye? I am not disagreeing with your right to seek information... but I think that the gang up mentality, whether it be against a single girl on the forum or against one of the guys is something we have to watch out for.

It appears that we have a reasonable amount of information on Catya... about as much as any of us. For instance, one might know my profession... we know Catya's as well (she was involved in media)... we know Catya is a Salafi (per the folks she cheers)... we also know she appears to not approve of my reading American sources (per her disapproval of Mike Scheuer and my admiration for the CIA Analyst's capabilities)... we also know that she is Turkish.

So I mean I think we ought to dilineate where Catya differs in her behavior from other non Pashtuns and what we do not know about her that we do know about others.

[faye]

did i blast, b.a.? damn, i try to maintain an equalibrity. i think scimitarx can defend himself.

[Wrayun]

Hows it any different than when Edge gets blasted by Faye? I am not disagreeing with your right to seek information... but I think that the gang up mentality, whether it be against a single girl on the forum or against one of the guys is something we have to watch out for.

It appears that we have a reasonable amount of information on Catya... about as much as any of us. For instance, one might know my profession... we know Catya's as well (she was involved in media)... we know Catya is a Salafi (per the folks she cheers)... we also know she appears to not approve of my reading American sources (per her disapproval of Mike Scheuer and my admiration for the CIA Analyst's capabilities)... we also know that she is Turkish.

So I mean I think we ought to dilineate where Catya differs in her behavior from other non Pashtuns and what we do not know about her that we do know about others.

Actually, she never admitted that she is Muslim. She never admitted when asked if she was a Turk. In fact she laughed at Toramana for assuming her to be. There is no gang here. I think I am the only one that questioned her. Most members, including the Staff, have been very kind and forgiving.

I don't want to assume that she is a Salafi, because she cheer leads for certain Salafi's. First I need to established that she is a Muslim, she won't even admit that. That is what's troubling. If she doesn't even admit to being a Muslim, why is she supporting a certain position amongst Muslims? She hasn't admitted whether she is Turk, or Mongol, let alone a Pukhtoon. That begs the question why, and for what she interferes in Pukhtoon affairs, and questions Pukhtoons when it comes to their own internal matters.

If there is a gang, it's her and her flock of zealots, who disrespect not only senior members, but also the staff. She vigorously pats them in approval, when their positions are appallingly flawed.

Grana, I'm not an angel but I try to be fair as much as humanly possible. I'm not picking on her because I got a personal vendetta against her. Most of the time I ignore her fruity color posts....not worth my time. But when she addresses me, in regards to Pukhtoon and Muslim affairs, without ever disclosing her affiliations...She is not so innocent.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

did i blast, b.a.? damn, i try to maintain an equalibrity. i think scimitarx can defend himself.

I agree, thats my point... it should stay between you two.

[randolph85]

i think its hilarious when sher questions my loyalty to afghanistan and islam.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Actually, she never admitted that she is Muslim. She never admitted when asked if she was a Turk. In fact she laughed at Toramana for assuming her to be. There is no gang here. I think I am the only one that questioned her. Most members, including the Staff, have been very kind and forgiving.

I don't want to assume that she is a Salafi, because she cheer leads for certain Salafi's. First I need to established that she is a Muslim, she won't even admit that. That is what's troubling. If she doesn't even admit to being a Muslim, why is she supporting a certain position amongst Muslims? She hasn't admitted whether she is Turk, or Mongol, let alone a Pukhtoon. That begs the question why, and for what she interferes in Pukhtoon affairs, and questions Pukhtoons when it comes to their own internal matters.

If there is a gang, it's her and her flock of zealots, who disrespect not only senior members, but also the staff. She vigorously pats them in approval, when their positions are appallingly flawed.

Grana, I'm not an angel but I try to be fair as much as humanly possible. I'm not picking on her because I got a personal vendetta against her. Most of the time I ignore her fruity color posts....not worth my time. But when she addresses me, in regards to Pukhtoon and Muslim affairs, without ever disclosing her affiliations...She is not so innocent.

True but the exact equal and opposite is Graveyard wrorre's concern with those that he feels have atheistic affiliations, heap insults on the Prophet Muhammad, yet do not delineate their belief system openly either right? They do this because they realize that by hiding behind the notion that: "well gee wiz, I don't have to be your definition of Muslim, I pretty much take exception to all facets of Islamic law, I am willing to outright be ahistorical and accuse the Prophet of rape... but I sure as heck will step right back under the umbrella so I can call you a Salafi." Yet these folks are afforded, by both you and me, the right to free speech.

[Wrayun]

True but the exact equal and opposite is Graveyard wrorre's concern with those that he feels have atheistic affiliations, heap insults on the Prophet Muhammad, yet do not delineate their belief system openly either right? They do this because they realize that by hiding behind the notion that: "well gee wiz, I don't have to be your definition of Muslim, I pretty much take exception to all facets of Islamic law, I am willing to outright be ahistorical and accuse the Prophet of rape... but I sure as heck will step right back under the umbrella so I can call you a Salafi." Yet these folks are afforded, by both you and me, the right to free speech.

Actually, those who insult the Prophet Muhammad, are openly none Muslims. I don't know any Muslim on this site that has insulted the Prophet Muhammad, or accused him of rape, and continued to denote themselves as Muslims.

Graveyard concern is mostly with the open secular atheists. And they don't hide their positions, unlike Catya. At least, those guys have a connection to Pukhtoons on a personal and a cultural level if they no longer hold the same religious beliefs.

Catya has none. If she has, that's what I am looking for her to share.

[Wrayun]

i think its hilarious when sher questions my loyalty to afghanistan and islam.

I laugh, or cringe, in disbelief, when she questions people like Toramana, Baygham, Osho, and even Maseed. People I often refute or disagree with. What does that say?

[Wrayun]

I do think that the matter of atheists who mock Islam and the Prophet (pbuh) should be far more pressing of an issue.

Waryun, I also think you should PM people your questions rather than publicize your thoughts here??

My questions concerns the public, it's not a personal matter. If it was personal, you wouldn't have heard about it.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Actually, those who insult the Prophet Muhammad, are openly none Muslims. I don't know any Muslim on this site that has insulted the Prophet Muhammad, or accused him of rape, and continued to denote themselves as Muslims.

Graveyard concern is mostly with the open secular atheists. And they don't hide their positions, unlike Catya. At least, those guys have a connection to Pukhtoons on a personal and a cultural level if they no longer hold the same religious beliefs.

Catya has none. If she has, that's what I am looking for her to share.

I refer you to Baygham's commentary disparaging the Prophet in the context of Tommy Franks occupying an Afghan village and having his pick of any woman he wants to sleep with. Subsequently, when called out, he retreated behind the Islamic umbrella and indicated that he had no desire to comply with anyone else's definition of Islam except his own and would not delineate his beliefs.

Another example was his comment here referring to the Quran as "fairy tales":
http://www.pashtunforums.com/religio...67/index3.html

His exact words as follows:
"Ahadith Stories
Quran fairytales,

Myth and stories have always been used to culturally absorb cosmological, social and environmental catastrophes along with day to day changes and such. Muslims are not unique in creating such fantasies."

The Quran answers him quiet cogently itself and reminds him of others before him who were rebuked:

Surah 6 Verse 25 "Of them there are some who (pretend to) listen to thee; but We have thrown veils on their hearts, So they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they saw every one of the Signs, they will not believe in them; in so much that when they come to thee, they (but) dispute with thee; the Unbelievers say: 'These are nothing but TALES OF ANCIENTS.'"
*Note how beautifully the Quran predicts such statements against it and staves them off.

As I said, I could care less if he says it. My point is we have to be consistent. He makes open hints in ways that are no different than Catya's peppering the forum with some oddities. Yet, he is not held to the same standard that Catya has to be held to. I find this problematic. If she has to delineate very carefully and in writing her religious beliefs, then so too should the Renegade Yusufzai Clan (not to be mistaken for the devout Yusufzai clan) on here.

Just as one is not willing to accept her statements delineate her beliefs so too should one not be willing to accept the refrain from these folks thaty allege "well maybe I'm just a different type of Muslim than you. And I state this so I can hide behind the general umbrella of Islam so as to attack it from within and render myself immune to attack."

My personal preference is to live and let live and not intrude into these matters... but if has to be done then it should be done thoroughly and to all comers.

[Roshina]

I laugh, or cringe, in disbelief, when she questions people like Toramana, Baygham, Osho, and even Maseed. People I often refute or disagree with. What does that say?

Gosh, tell me about it! She once dedicated an entire thread to ME about MY beliefs :D I told her I sincerely appreciated her love for and devotion to me, but I was not going to tell her what my religious beliefs were if they're not already obvious to her. Lo and behold - she made her own conclusions, saying stuff like, "SEE? We should really investigate this matter further. WHO is she? WHAT are her religious beliefs?", etc., etc. Or was it someone else who'd opened the thread and she was the one running it? Not sure, but she even also dared to make a ridiculous comment like, "Why is she not using her real name on here?" (Hold on, what?!) And then when I asked her what HER real name was, she wouldn't' respond. Heavens, at least I have a blog that clearly expresses my beliefs -- what do you have to give any indication of your own sense of faith? Nothing. Only stories that God knows whether they're fictional or not.

I don't think people's religious beliefs are important for anyone to know. However, when you have a non-Muslim like her running around, ridiculing certain factions of Pashtuns/Muslims and accusing them of having beliefs that they don't claim to themselves, then you one HAS to wonder: What the hell is a non-Muslim, non-Pashtun AMERICAN/Western journalist doing thinking she (or he) has some divine right to tell ME what MY beliefs are or decide for ME whether I'm Pashtun or Muslim or not!

And good question - why is she still not a Muslim despite the orthodox Muslim influence on her all over PF?

Wrayun, you're a very unbiased and rational guy. Thank you for being you. I forgive you for your anti-secularism thoughts, but I commend you for your honesty and fairness, for not taking sides at least in this matter. I mean, had you wished, you coulda just let the matter go, right? It's not like you're a secularist or another of those people Catya Jaan is always mocking and harassing and demanding they be banned. May you live forever in peace and safety. Sara zamung. Aameen.

Catya Jaan, it's okay if you don't answer - but now you understand why *I*, too, didn't want to answer your question when you asked about mine. But in my case, at least my religion is very clear: I'm Muslim. Yours isn't. Someone will ask you a simple question like "are you a Muslim?" and, from what I've noticed, you'll say, "Go read my 1600 posts to find the answer." Hold on - what?! Don't be embarrassed of being a non-Muslim. I actually respect non-Muslims more than Muslims here because they tend to be more honest about their beliefs. So what are you afraid of? And, besides, we've got several non-Muslims and non-Pashtuns around here.

If you're Muslim, however, I apologize for assuming you're not, though I think it wouldn't harm you to just say it clearly that you're a Muslim then.

Were she a Muslim doing what she does, I would understand and I don't think we'd have an honest reason to confront her like this. But this way, an American, non-Muslim, non-Pashtun journalist choosing sides and attacking certain individuals over others when she HERSELF does not adhere to their beliefs is a concern indeed. If she's a Muslim and doing it, whatEVER type of Muslim she believes herself to be, then all's well. But otherwise, we need to be cautious.

[Wrayun]

I refer you to Baygham's commentary disparaging the Prophet in the context of Tommy Franks occupying an Afghan village and having his pick of any woman he wants to sleep with. Subsequently, when called out, he retreated behind the Islamic umbrella and indicated that he had no desire to comply with anyone else's definition of Islam except his own and would not delineate his beliefs.

Another example was his comment here referring to the Quran as "fairy tales":
http://www.pashtunforums.com/religio...67/index3.html

His exact words as follows:
"Ahadith Stories
Quran fairytales,

Myth and stories have always been used to culturally absorb cosmological, social and environmental catastrophes along with day to day changes and such. Muslims are not unique in creating such fantasies."

The Quran answers him quiet cogently itself and reminds him of others before him who were rebuked:

Surah 6 Verse 25 "Of them there are some who (pretend to) listen to thee; but We have thrown veils on their hearts, So they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they saw every one of the Signs, they will not believe in them; in so much that when they come to thee, they (but) dispute with thee; the Unbelievers say: 'These are nothing but TALES OF ANCIENTS.'"
*Note how beautifully the Quran predicts such statements against it and staves them off.

As I said, I could care less if he says it. My point is we have to be consistent. He makes open hints in ways that are no different than Catya's peppering the forum with some oddities. Yet, he is not held to the same standard that Catya has to be held to. I find this problematic. If she has to delineate very carefully and in writing her religious beliefs, then so too should the Renegade Yusufzai Clan (not to be mistaken for the devout Yusufzai clan) on here.

Just as one is not willing to accept her statements delineate her beliefs so too should one not be willing to accept the refrain from these folks thaty allege "well maybe I'm just a different type of Muslim than you. And I state this so I can hide behind the general umbrella of Islam so as to attack it from within and render myself immune to attack."

My personal preference is to live and let live and not intrude into these matters... but if has to be done then it should be done thoroughly and to all comers.

Baygham is an atheist, he has made that very clear. It is unfair to compare him to Catya. Baygham has owned up to his beliefs as an "atheist Pukhtoon". He has specifically stated how he feels about Islam, and religion in particular. There is no question about it. He has left no doubt as to where he stand. He attacks Salafis, and non-Salafis like myself, openly. The Yousafzai clan, at the end of the day, are Yousafzai. They leave little doubt about it.

On the other hand, Catya hides behind her ambiguity while attacking others who have no leverage to work with against her. Is she a Muslim? Is she a Pukhtoon?

You are right, live and let live, but the problem is that Catya has a tendency of not following such a golden rule. She want's to live, and then wants others to live a certain way, a way which she won't endorse openly or indulge in as to why she supports it in the first place. She just does, and that's not enough. She should not question others and their loyalties, identities, when she is not willing to share her own.

It's called double-standards.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Gosh, tell me about it! She once dedicated an entire thread to ME about MY beliefs :D I told her I sincerely appreciated her love for and devotion to me, but I was not going to tell her what my religious beliefs were if they're not already obvious to her. Lo and behold - she made her own conclusions, saying stuff like, "SEE? We should really investigate this matter further. WHO is she? WHAT are her religious beliefs?", etc., etc. Or was it someone else who'd opened the thread and she was the one running it? Not sure, but she even also dared to make a ridiculous comment like, "Why is she not using her real name on here?" (Hold on, what?!) And then when I asked her what HER real name was, she wouldn't' respond. Heavens, at least I have a blog that clearly expresses my beliefs -- what do you have to give any indication of your own sense of faith? Nothing. Only stories that God knows whether they're fictional or not.

I don't think people's religious beliefs are important for anyone to know. However, when you have a non-Muslim like her running around, ridiculing certain factions of Pashtuns/Muslims and accusing them of having beliefs that they don't claim to themselves, then you one HAS to wonder: What the hell is a non-Muslim, non-Pashtun AMERICAN/Western journalist doing thinking she (or he) has some divine right to tell ME what MY beliefs are or decide for ME whether I'm Pashtun or Muslim or not!

And good question - why is she still not a Muslim despite the orthodox Muslim influence on her all over PF?

Wrayun, you're a very unbiased and rational guy. Thank you for being you. I forgive you for your anti-secularism thoughts, but I commend you for your honesty and fairness, for not taking sides at least in this matter. I mean, had you wished, you coulda just let the matter go, right? It's not like you're a secularist or another of those people Catya Jaan is always mocking and harassing and demanding they be banned. May you live forever in peace and safety. Sara zamung. Aameen.

Catya Jaan, it's okay if you don't answer - but now you understand why *I*, too, didn't want to answer your question when you asked about mine. But in my case, at least my religion is very clear: I'm Muslim. Yours isn't. Someone will ask you a simple question like "are you a Muslim?" and, from what I've noticed, you'll say, "Go read my 1600 posts to find the answer." Hold on - what?! Don't be embarrassed of being a non-Muslim. I actually respect non-Muslims more than Muslims here because they tend to be more honest about their beliefs. So what are you afraid of? And, besides, we've got several non-Muslims and non-Pashtuns around here.

If you're Muslim, however, I apologize for assuming you're not, though I think it wouldn't harm you to just say it clearly that you're a Muslim then.

Were she a Muslim doing what she does, I would understand and I don't think we'd have an honest reason to confront her like this. But this way, an American, non-Muslim, non-Pashtun journalist choosing sides and attacking certain individuals over others when she HERSELF does not adhere to their beliefs is a concern indeed. If she's a Muslim and doing it, whatEVER type of Muslim she believes herself to be, then all's well. But otherwise, we need to be cautious.

How is that any different or less dangerous than Baygham's commentaries which hedge around blatant disbelief, referring to the Quranic ayaahs as fairy tales, blasting the Prophet, yet willing to refer to himself as a "different type of Muslim" in order to render himself intellectually immune from attack?

He should be just as blatant in having to answer how one can refer to the Quran with such non respectful terms that the Quran itself condemns VERBATIM and associates directly with unbelief. In fact, it uses nearly the exact same word "fairy tales" nearly equals "stories of the ancients."

Catya outsider status automatically delineates her say in the matter to having less relevence. The hidden threat from within is hardly less of a matter than the one from without. After all, that same hidden threat is typified in the likes of Mr. Karzai, Mr. Sherpao, Mr. Khalikzaad and many others who claim to speak for Pashtuns... yet are a part of the apparatus killing them day in and out.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Baygham is an atheist, he has made that very clear. It is unfair to compare him to Catya. Baygham has owned up to his beliefs as an "atheist Pukhtoon". He has specifically stated how he feels about Islam, and religion in particular. There is no question about it. He has left no doubt as to where he stand. He attacks Salafis, and non-Salafis like myself, openly. The Yousafzai clan, at the end of the day, are Yousafzai. They leave little doubt about it.

On the other hand, Catya hides behind her ambiguity while attacking others who have no leverage to work with against her. Is she a Muslim? Is she a Pukhtoon?

You are right, live and let live, but the problem is that Catya has a tendency of not following such a golden rule. She want's to live, and then wants others to live a certain way, a way which she won't endorse openly or indulge in as to why she supports it in the first place. She just does, and that's not enough. She should not question others and their loyalties, identities, when she is not willing to share her own.

It's called double-standards.

Really? Where? With me in all our exchanges, he has stated his adherence to a brand of Islam but refuses to delineate it. The same goes for Toramana.

I actually like Toramana wrorre and enjoy our little back and forths.. so I am not suggesting an online trial.

I am just pointing out I have not been able to find a single statement, except from Lawanaay Zalmaay that he is athiest.

No hard feelings... Im out because I got early rounds tomorrow. I hope the issue gets resolved, but I would say that if you are concerned about Catya's influence, I would need some evidence that she actually is capable of influencing anybody. No offense to her, but I generally gloss over her posts as they are ideological or opinionated.

Oh well, to each their own. Salamoona and good night.