Intro

[ذو الفقار]

But your opinion that Hazrat Ali should have been the first Khalifa is not supported by any Sunni scholar , be that Imam Abu Hanifa or anyone else.

Perhaps, it is my personal feeling. Nevertheless I whole-heartedly accept the Khilafa of sayyidina Abu Bakr Radi Allahu anhu.

As a Sunni, for me the issue of succession to Prophet is not a theological one but an administrative one, so there is room for Ijtehad in it. Those who say that Khilafa of Sahibain (Radi Allahu anhuma) was illegitimate are clearly wrong, but I do not say their view is tantamount to Kufr. To be a Muslim the basic requirement is to believe in Allah, His Angels, His Scriptures, His Prophets and Resurrection/Hereafter. There is no requirement to believe in Khilafat ar Raashida, though that was a historical reality.

But I reject the rule of Yazeed Paleed, and the Sahaba themselves rebelled against him, particularly Abdullah b. al-Zubair (Radi Allahu anhuma). Many of my fellow Panjpiris like Maulana Ataullah Bandiyalvi seem to have a soft spot for Yazeed and the Umayyads, but I passionately differ with them on that subject.

[ذو الفقار]

I should also clarify that I’m not born into a Panjpiri family, I actually come from a Qadiani background but then I decided to move toward mainstream Sunni Islam about 12 years ago. I tested the waters and spent time with different sects and groups, including Tablighi Jamaat (spent 40 days ‘Chilla’) and Salafis, but ultimately decided that the Panjpiri school of thought was most suitable to my ideas about Islam. I find the Panjpiri school to be the most pure stream out of all the various streams because of its emphasis on Tawhid above all else. Its beliefs are most rational and Quraanic. As I grew up in a Qadiani family, apart from the belief in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the promised Messiah, our beliefs were also quite close to the Panjpiris in all other doctrinal matters, thus when I learned about the Panjpiris their history and beliefs I knew immediately this is the Maslak that is meant for me because I was already familiar with those beliefs and ideas coming from a Qadiani background.

Let me be specific about which beliefs:

1. Magic is unreal, the story of magic being done to Prophet (alaihis salam) is fabricated

2. Dead cannot hear or answer prayers, nor are they aware of anything that happens in this world after they die

3. Life and punishment of the grave is not in this actual earthly ditch where the corpse is placed but is in a parallel dimension separate from this world

4. The Prophet ﷺ is not alive in his grave in Medina, his soul is in the highest realm of Janna. Same with the souls of the Martyrs
5. It is Shirk to wear amulets or hang “Ta’widh” even if they are only Qur’anic verses

6. It is forbidden to build any structure on a grave, all graves should be level to the ground (all the so-called “mazaaraat” should be bulldozed)

*I was disappointed that the Taliban rightfully blew up the Buddha idols of Bamiyan but left alone the idolatrous Mazaaraat structures where people worship the deceased. Buddhism is dead in Afghanistan and no one worshiped those statues, but many Muslims were and continue to worship the Mazaars so it was more critical to demolish the Mazaars than the Buddha statues

[maneatinglizard]

Magic is clearly mentioned in the Quran. I don't know how you can deny it when its pretty clearly and unambiguously referred to in the Quran (and Sahih Hadith).

[marwat]

I should also clarify that I’m not born into a Panjpiri family, I actually come from a Qadiani background but then I decided to move toward mainstream Sunni Islam about 12 years ago. I tested the waters and spent time with different sects and groups, including Tablighi Jamaat (spent 40 days ‘Chilla’) and Salafis, but ultimately decided that the Panjpiri school of thought was most suitable to my ideas about Islam. I find the Panjpiri school to be the most pure stream out of all the various streams because of its emphasis on Tawhid above all else. Its beliefs are most rational and Quraanic. As I grew up in a Qadiani family, apart from the belief in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the promised Messiah, our beliefs were also quite close to the Panjpiris in all other doctrinal matters, thus when I learned about the Panjpiris their history and beliefs I knew immediately this is the Maslak that is meant for me because I was already familiar with those beliefs and ideas coming from a Qadiani background.

Let me be specific about which beliefs:

1. Magic is unreal, the story of magic being done to Prophet (alaihis salam) is fabricated

2. Dead cannot hear or answer prayers, nor are they aware of anything that happens in this world after they die

3. Life and punishment of the grave is not in this actual earthly ditch where the corpse is placed but is in a parallel dimension separate from this world

4. The Prophet ﷺ is not alive in his grave in Medina, his soul is in the highest realm of Janna. Same with the souls of the Martyrs
5. It is Shirk to wear amulets or hang “Ta’widh” even if they are only Qur’anic verses

6. It is forbidden to build any structure on a grave, all graves should be level to the ground (all the so-called “mazaaraat” should be bulldozed)

*I was disappointed that the Taliban rightfully blew up the Buddha idols of Bamiyan but left alone the idolatrous Mazaaraat structures where people worship the deceased. Buddhism is dead in Afghanistan and no one worshiped those statues, but many Muslims were and continue to worship the Mazaars so it was more critical to demolish the Mazaars than the Buddha statues

is the conversion from qadiyani to mainstream sunni widespread? how the decision went with your family. ahle hadith and wahabi have the same belief too.

[ذو الفقار]

There are some very learned people in Canada so inshallah there should be someone close by who may be a better person to talk Islam with than randoms on an Internet forum.

Regrettably my Panjpiri/Tawhidi maslak has a very small presence in Canada. The nearest Mosques and Musallas to my home are dominated by the Raiwindis (TJ). I merely pray in the mosque, attend the Friday service, but I have no interest in learning from their scholars or imams. When I was in Pakistan recently then I spent time with people of my own Maslak including going to religious gatherings to learn more about my beliefs. Alhamdulillah our Maslak is growing very fast in Pakistan, especially in the western Punjab region (Bhakkar, Sargodha, Mianwali, Talagang, etc.). But compared to other sects we are still relatively small. I do believe we have a much larger presence in the NWFP but in the big cities of Karachi and Lahore we are virtually unheard of.

The so-called Islamic scholars here in Canada are a huge disappointment, I suspect the same is true in the West in general. Their preaching style is very boring and dry and they focus on issues that don’t interest me.

[ذو الفقار]

Magic is clearly mentioned in the Quran. I don't know how you can deny it when its pretty clearly and unambiguously referred to in the Quran (and Sahih Hadith).

Laat, Manaat, Uzza, Baal are mentioned in the Holy Quraan too. Should I believe in them also? (God forbid)

[ذو الفقار]

is the conversion from qadiyani to mainstream sunni widespread? how the decision went with your family. ahle hadith and wahabi have the same belief too.

Yes there is a huge exodus away from the Qadiani jamaat toward mainstream Sunni Islam. I was part of that exodus. My family is fairly irreligious and don’t care what sect anyone belongs to as long as they are basically Muslim. Most of my family have left Qadiani jamaat, in fact most of them left before I did (but that was because they got intermarried with Sunnis so their conversions were mostly due to social pressure but mine was genuine)

Salafis or Ahle Hadith do have some similar beliefs as us about not worshiping the deceased, but they also differ with us on many critical issues, such as magic, Ta'widh, and believing that Prophets are alive in their graves, and that the punishment of the grave is literally inside the earthen burial plot

[marwat]

Yes there is a huge exodus away from the Qadiani jamaat toward mainstream Sunni Islam. I was part of that exodus. My family is fairly irreligious and don’t care what sect anyone belongs to as long as they are basically Muslim. Most of my family have left Qadiani jamaat, in fact most of them left before I did (but that was because they got intermarried with Sunnis so their conversions were mostly due to social pressure but mine was genuine)

Salafis or Ahle Hadith do have some similar beliefs as us about not worshiping the deceased, but they also differ with us on many critical issues, such as magic, Ta'widh, and believing that Prophets are alive in their graves, and that the punishment of the grave is literally inside the earthen burial plot

how does it matter whether punishment of the grave is literally inside the earth or in some other dimension, or whether prophets are alive in their graves or not. one simple way to know is to dug their graves, but if it would mean disrespect, they how about saying that we are uncertain about the matter, rather than making sects over these small issues, this does not affect our lives anyway neither are these our islamic obligations to know the uncertain.

[ذو الفقار]

how does it matter whether punishment of the grave is literally inside the earth or in some other dimension, or whether prophets are alive in their graves or not. one simple way to know is to dug their graves, but if it would mean disrespect, they how about saying that we are uncertain about the matter, rather than making sects over these small issues, this does not affect our lives anyway neither are these our islamic obligations to know the uncertain.

If the Prophets are alive in their graves, it means they are alive in this world, as the graves are inside this world. If someone is alive in this world it means they are not deceased. The Holy Quraan very much emphasizes that the Prophet Sallallahu alaihi wasallam will die like all other mortals, and that once Allah takes a soul at death He withholds it from ever coming back into this world.

You say that these are small issues, but these small issues are the basis for the widespread shirk and grave worship among our people. When people believe that someone is alive in the grave they will go to that grave and start talking to him. Next they will believe the inmate of the grave can hear them because he is living inside the grave. There is now this strange belief of an entire underground where everyone is living buried beneath the Earth! Therefore, in order to cut the very roots of this shirk and superstition of grave worship Allah Most High has announced that after death the soul is taken away and never comes back to this temporal world, the deceased cannot hear, and all the Prophets have died. End of story.

If you dig up any grave all you will find are bones and dust. Holy Quran and Sunna teach this reality to, which is in fact an observable reality, not something from the unseen or uncertain. So how can it be said that mere fossilized bones and decomposed corpses are living? It is just as irrational as praying to a statue made of bronze or stone thinking it can hear you. Lifeless inanimate object cannot hear you just as lifeless dead bones cannot hear you. Idolatry is the most absurd thing

I mean just think for one moment. If the Prophet Sallallahu alaihi wasallam is alive in the grave, did the Sahaba bury a living breathing person (God forbid)?

[marwat]

If the Prophets are alive in their graves, it means they are alive in this world, as the graves are inside this world. If someone is alive in this world it means they are not deceased. The Holy Quraan very much emphasizes that the Prophet Sallallahu alaihi wasallam will die like all other mortals, and that once Allah takes a soul at death He withholds it from ever coming back into this world.

You say that these are small issues, but these small issues are the basis for the widespread shirk and grave worship among our people. When people believe that someone is alive in the grave they will go to that grave and start talking to him. Next they will believe the inmate of the grave can hear them because he is living inside the grave. There is now this strange belief of an entire underground where everyone is living buried beneath the Earth! Therefore, in order to cut the very roots of this shirk and superstition of grave worship Allah Most High has announced that after death the soul is taken away and never comes back to this temporal world, the deceased cannot hear, and all the Prophets have died. End of story.

If you dig up any grave all you will find are bones and dust. Holy Quran and Sunna teach this reality to, which is in fact an observable reality, not something from the unseen or uncertain. So how can it be said that mere fossilized bones and decomposed corpses are living? It is just as irrational as praying to a statue made of bronze or stone thinking it can hear you. Lifeless inanimate object cannot hear you just as lifeless dead bones cannot hear you. Idolatry is the most absurd thing

I mean just think for one moment. If the Prophet Sallallahu alaihi wasallam is alive in the grave, did the Sahaba bury a living breathing person (God forbid)?

First of all I am sunni deobandi, and I share your views regarding someone is alive or dead in a grave, at first I though that this does not affect our lives whivh side we believe but as you have pointed out correctly, I agree. But there are other issues which does not for example the green turban sect believe that Muhammad PBUH was made of nour, light and was not earthly like other human being. Does this affect us. We are not to be judged afterlife whether we have correctly find out or not.

[ذو الفقار]

First of all I am sunni deobandi, and I share your views regarding someone is alive or dead in a grave, at first I though that this does not affect our lives whivh side we believe but as you have pointed out correctly, I agree. But there are other issues which does not for example the green turban sect believe that Muhammad PBUH was made of nour, light and was not earthly like other human being. Does this affect us. We are not to be judged afterlife whether we have correctly find out or not.

I don't consider the green turbans to be true Muslims. They are mushrikin in our view. We don't even eat their Zabiha. They believe many other things not just that Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم is Noor, they also believe he is Mukhtaar-e-Kull (omnipotent), Haadir and Naadir (omnipresent), aalim-ul-Ghaib (omniscient). They supplicate to the deceased and are steeped in idolatry.

[toughpashtun]

First of all I am sunni deobandi, and I share your views regarding someone is alive or dead in a grave, at first I though that this does not affect our lives whivh side we believe but as you have pointed out correctly, I agree. But there are other issues which does not for example the green turban sect believe that Muhammad PBUH was made of nour, light and was not earthly like other human being. Does this affect us. We are not to be judged afterlife whether we have correctly find out or not.

The official Deobandi position is that Prophets are alive in their graves.The Panjpiris are an off shoot who believe the opposite , thats why mainstream Deobandis consider them to be a separate sect.

[salman47]

I am a Muslim(i don't believe in Sects, my Family never taught any of the children about sects)... I am a bit strict when it comes to Hadith.
I agree with most of what you say, esp. The Grave part!
But I beg to differ with you on Magic. It is real and it exists.

P.S. In Turkiye, all Turks are Hanfi Muslims. Most of them believe one thing about Saints, it is that they are Shaheed, and since Quran says that 'Shaheed are not dead', they take it literally i.e. (According to my Turk friend)'it is ok to ask the saint for *something*'
Had a very lengthy argument with him, which ended up in me talking to a wall. Like really can't they see the shirk?

[ذو الفقار]

I am a Muslim(i don't believe in Sects, my Family never taught any of the children about sects)... I am a bit strict when it comes to Hadith.
I agree with most of what you say, esp. The Grave part!
But I beg to differ with you on Magic. It is real and it exists.

P.S. In Turkiye, all Turks are Hanfi Muslims. Most of them believe one thing about Saints, it is that they are Shaheed, and since Quran says that 'Shaheed are not dead', they take it literally i.e. (According to my Turk friend)'it is ok to ask the saint for *something*'
Had a very lengthy argument with him, which ended up in me talking to a wall. Like really can't they see the shirk?

Thanks for your feedback. BTW Are you Turkish or Pashtun? In other thread you were praising Bacha Khan and whole bunch of other dudes I have no clue about.

[ذو الفقار]

This is what I look like



As you can see I look like a Pathan but I am Punjabi and Hyderabadi. I am mistaken for being Pathan because of my appearance and style of dress, but that is because I belong to the Panjpiri / Mamati maslak.