Are Tajiks with past Pashtun or Afghan root/tribal names are considered Pashtuns?

[Nick]

Nick your post tells me that you are Pashtun by ethnicity and Dari is what you speak linguistically.
Pashto is not used as a medium to define who is Pashtun. This logic is flawed and I can show you show. If you belong to a Pashtun tribe and have Pashtun blood and seek to learn Pashto, you are Pashtun.

I appreciate and thank you but I am not in that level to be considered Pashtun. You see I won't buy the so called Ethnicity. My reasons as fallows.

The word that was not found in old days, the so called Ethnicity has been put on table by Anthropologists not long ago, and ever since those in the field of "Defining" the groups of people ie "Ethnics" by simply classifing and dividing Races, by the "New world Order" are those natural scientists who are called "Ethologist". Just as in old day there was the unfamous "racialogist" often in the court of Kings, nowadays our society has accepted to what Ethnologists have presented. You should note that Islamic culture and Islamic laws does not allow "Racialogy" or "ethnology" in fact many Muslims altogether ban Humanism or Human Scinece as in theory, these scientist reject God.

Not only I decline to accept being a Pashtun but it makes feel weird. How am I Pashtun? By defination both inside Afghanistan and outside (Althought outside is sometimes caused more confusion) Pashtuns are classified by their tongue. My tongue by all means in not Pashtu, therefore its an abuse to those who proudly speak Pashtu. In terms of the fact that I am the so called "Backstaper" or "Loser" but the fact that I can't communicate in their tongue.

The fact that I don't speak Pashtu is one major error for those who socider themselves Pashtun and don't speak Pashtu. I have meet many Afghans with Qwami names defined as Pashtun, but inside their walls Dari is what rules. That's just the way Afghan society is, we are devoted Muslims, our inner watan, village or town or region makes decision to what Language we should speak, in one destrict of Balkh there are all Pashtu speakers and one may wonder "Why" isn't Balkh majority "Dari" how was it that districts inside Provinces have different languages? If we go to India we are Indian, we go to Punjabistan we are Urduzuban, if we live in Iran we are Persian, in short we will speak the language of what majority people around us speaks.

Even If I was a pashtun, Pashtu was written write in my forehead, and lets assume that I move away from Toronto's Pashtun cummunity, Immigrated in some Canadian town called Armstrong in BC province (BTW I have been there its a beautiful place), lets for the purpose of job. The chances are I would probably buy a house there and lets assume I have two kid, now the future of my kids are unknown, far from muslim society. I am very sure my kids would be lost in terms of accepting Islamic culture, and it will be foreign for them, after all throughout their life time, and school ages the would never see a person with scar, or any person leaving class for prayer, perhabs as a strick proud Pashtun I may succeed in terms of making Pashtu their first language, since English is their world, I am very sure they would accept English as their "First Language" and dumb my language as their second language.

My point is clear and simple, language does not have to be part of any religion, language does not have to be part of any culture, language does not come in your DNA. Language is probably important inside family tradition as it could be violation for you as being 1st generation of Russian living in Poland to speak in Polish with your parents and yet they are Russian. In conclusion language is a gift of Allah as mentioned in Quran, its the way we cummunicate and day after another we create words just to mean something. Therefore your language does not have to be the only language you should speak. Languages come and go, the "come" part have been witnessed by historians, and the "go" part has also been put in theory by historians, althought many say it does not "go" or disappear but rather mixes with the new "coming langauges", that would be the future language.

Pashto is not used as a medium to define who is Pashtun. This logic is flawed and I can show you show. If you belong to a Pashtun tribe and have Pashtun blood and seek to learn Pashto, you are Pashtun

Pashto is not used as a medium to define who is Pashtun. This logic is flawed and I can show you show

I think I am aware of that and its not "flawed" as you assume.
Perhabs you havn't noticed but from my personal experence, I lived in the former soviet union. Communism carries the most core of socialogy as well as Humanism, by Pashtun you are living Pashtu, dying Pashtu, and even eating Pashtu, Please don't ask me how you live or eat but that's just the concept. Pashtu your language means everything for you, Right? but for others it may mean nothing but just a language, and all they have to do is change your language, and they succeeded. Today every former soviet union speaks and writes Russian. You might not, perhabs our next Door Pakistan, and India well lets consider India as we all know world's number one English speaking country. For many high class Indian families English is their first maybe with accet like Jamaicans, but again its their first language.

If you belong to a Pashtun tribe and have Pashtun blood and seek to learn Pashto, you are Pashtun

The Pashtun society like Punjabi Sikh society as well as other societies in the region take pride from their language, one of the main reason may relay on their historical backround as being different from rest of South Asians. Another reason why you should study Genealogy, another subject which I am aware of. The Pashtun society as a whole have gone through the historical suffering from which united them under one banner, I won't say during Mughal era but rather during English era, ever since Language nationalism has been on the rise yes the so called "Pashtun Nationalism". So don't assume that your society is different, I can bring forwards the other examples.

If I belong to a Pashtu speaking tribe ie from my family side then yes I am Pashtun, but my family-tribe those not speak Pashtu I am not Pashtun at all.

If you belong to a Pashtun tribe and have Pashtun blood and seek to learn Pashto, you are Pashtun

Most importantly your blood. Please forgive me, its the pride you take for your tongue, I understand your taking into the next level of nationalism by which Language overcomes Race and sometimes a Religion, but in reality you know this as well as I. There is no such thing as "Pashtun by Blood", if it was, I would of been Pashtun right?. The society makes laws as well family traditions by which we fallow without noticing and this comes part of our habit and everyday thing, our blood has nothing to do with it.
"Seek to learn Pashtu your Pashtun", I understand the feeling of this kind of nationalism the fact that Pashtun being famous during 1800s is now next to dying, while numbers decreased from 1930s of 75% to 1955 55% to 1970s 48% and in 1992 38% and now people BS with 25%.

The fact since the rise of afghan nationalism, up to 1900s everyone was considered Pashtun at least from Mughal era up to British era during that time, thanks to people like Pir Roshan, who rised the feeling of Afghan nationalism and some 100 years later Afghans from Safivad and Mughal united as one country to be called Afghanistan, but after British era everything fall back to pre-Mogolian era and people once agian produced Dari poetry something that was not part of Afghanistan during Dark ages 1250-1500AD, in fact from mughal Babur era up to 1900s for more than 400 years Afghanistan did not produce a single famous native Farsi poet, something unsual cause out of 100 best poets of the world today, we produced 60 of the worlds best Farsi poets from 850-1250 AD within 400 years of pre-Mogolian Era Afghanistan had produced 700 world known poets. Mahmud of Ghazni was one person very found of peotry that his court had 400 poets.

Today many Pashtu supporter are under pressure in making sure their childern are not lost, many pashtu poets are crying that a language brought out of hardship only enjoyed 300 years is now once under edge of dying. So yes alot of people are now learning Pashtu but just because they are seeking to learn Pashtu does not mean they are Pashtun. This logic does not apply to just anyone specially westerners who are have mission in Afghanistan, as well as other countries who are for example above is Video clib of Russian girls taking their Degree in Pashtu language. By your defination they are Pashtun as well maybe not as their first language unless they go and live in Afghan society and marry pashtun men, but even than are their blood "Pashtun" LOL.
Actually I know someone who did marry a russian girl and damn is good in Pashtu, they have 3 kids, she even converted to Islam. SO where is her "Pashtun blood".

I hope you don't take this example into a different direction, but I am simply trying to apply your idea of Pashtun blood. Despite the fact that fully understand you want to replace the racial term "Afghan" with Pashtun, simply because from day one up to now the tribes under banner of "Afghan" in majority are Pashtu speaking today. I personally feel its violating and taking away our rights and our identity as well as others. Majority of us Farsiwans are very well aware of what we are called yep we are called "Tajiks" thanks to dirty Russian socialist and ethnalogist, but unfortunatly 45 years without any voice or Government althought Zahir's Administration did went against first Russian produced Afghan demographic data in 1956, but it was not taken serious as per Russian Aid and support of Daud Khan. But needless to say people of Afghanistan paid little attention to such russian produced BS and crap, and since they were not so educated as to reading Russian language it matter little to them, yet the Russian work by 1960s was already produced in other countries. By mids of 1960s these Russian Books were the hand of young Afghan cummunist believers.

In that sense 40 years after USSR's last creation of Afghan demographic. These names and many political leaders and almost anyone Dari speaking were to be classified as non-Afghan. Here is an example.
Ahmad Wali=Tajik
Ahmad Zahir=Tajik
Ustad Sarban=Tajik
Naim popal=Tajik
Qader Espari=Tajik
Tahir Shabab=Tajik
Jawad ghaziyar=Tajik
These are the names which I remember seeing in Tajikistan's TV channel back in old days, and you what after mention these names they would say this. "Khonondahey-Tojek-e-AFghonistan" yet they are all Afghan by Qwam.

BTW all of the above is just an example of what Tajikistan think of them, as well as our blood brothers under ISI influnce from Pakistan (Pashtunistan). Now you tell me are they Tajiks or Afghan. If you don't know their family background let me know and I will tell you.

As a Farsiwan myself I would like myself to be first and primary source, we consider ourself "Muslim" first and "Afghan" second and like Pashtuns 3rd we either go by our lingustic identity "Farsiwan" majority of us unlike Pashtun we don't practice tribalism, therefore we also go by our township/village or have mythical linkage. I am not going to speak for all Tajiks. Since there are many kind of Afghan Tajiks,

Here I organized them in my best knowledge correct me If I am wrong.

1. Arab Tajiks: who are Native and have been in Afghanistan since beginning of Islam like Sayedis, Khuja and Arabs. ( Number unknown)


2. Afghan Tajiks: Tribally affilated Afghans who were inside Afghanistan before Islam, natives sometimes carries same root names as modern Pashtuns, such groups include Pamiris, Nuristanis, Swatis, as well as Vaghans, (Wakhan). (Number Unknown)


3. Farsiwan Tajiks: Pashtun related groups who are children of Pashtu speaking from 16th century-18th century (Number unknown)


4. Pashtun Tajiks: Who are from recent fresh and newly converted Farsi speakers LOL Lost their language and sometimes roots as well. Related to 18th-19th century Pashtu speaking population during war with Brits. (29% of Total Afghanistan's "Tajik population" which is represented as 27% in 2004)


5. Turkic Tajiks: Related to 19th century Turkistani immigrants Persians speakers of Turkic origin who came in Afghanistan during Russian invasion of Turkistan (number unknown)


6. Basmachi Tajiks: Related to recent Turkic Tajiks, and also post Basmachi Turkistani immigrants who came from Turkistan, (Number unknown, but more 500,000 in 1920s according to Russian sources supported by UN)


7. Hazara Tajik: Hazara who have convered to Sunni Islam, during Abdur Rahman Khan as well as early or latter periods, (Number unknown)


8. Persian Tajik: Tajiks who are decendents of Persian related groups such as Jamshidis, Qazalbash, Aimaqs etc. (Numbered to be 4-5 million)


9. Tajikistani Tajik: Most recent Tajiks immigrants who came during Tajik Civil war of 1990s, given Afghan citizenship under crackhead Rabbani administration which is why Rabbani has been nicknamed Tajikistani, and criticized for hiring Tajikistanis as his soldiers. (numbered to be 300,000 in 1996)

10. Mixed Tajiks: This won't apply to them however there are intermarriages with Farsiwans, and Pashtuns. Intermixing between Tajiks and Uzbek is common however Since both Uzbeks and Turkic Tajiks are from same family class.


The First 4 groups is what we are interested its these group that we can define as Farsiwan or native Afghan Tajiks, also these four groups by population represent a little over 50% of over all total Afghanistan's Tajik Population.


This is a respond to my brother please continue with discussion here, althought there have been more than dozen we have discussed such complicated before but for some reason it seems more complicated than ever. The case of Pashtuns are very simple and clear, they have little identity crisis compare to other groups of the region, their recent past history makes them even prouder than other groups of Asia. Despite all of these open known concepts the world media continusly produce BS and crap, which is sometimes supported by Pashtun nationalist and mostly rejected, I am not going to jumb into Pashtun nationalism as per subject I am not so into it. However I love my Pashtun brother and as I said before as an Afghan nationalist I would always support those in support of Afghan unity, call it anything or any political leader under banner of unity and Islam I will be the first to give my vote.

However since we have very educated people in here I would this discussion to be professional, our Pashtun brother from both side of the border shell share their personal experence as well as their knowledge so that we can further solve such issue of identity crises and confusion caused by Ethnicity/Race etc.

[Laila]

I guess i am a Pashtun Tajik, right?

[Laila]

Are you? You should know. If your family has been absorbed into the Pashtun system, then you are Pashtun, but why do you refer to yourself as Pashtun Tajik? I mean that way there could be a Pashtun Chinese, a Pashtun English, and so on. If your family is absorbed into the Pashtun system for however long they have been, then they are not Tajik anymore. From the original post, it seems that anyone who has some Pashtun blood in them is Pashtun. That is not true. As all of you know, being Pashtun mostly has to do with following our codes.

No i do not consider myself Tajik. I know where i am from, i know who I am, and I know where i stand. I dont see how i can be a Pashtun Tajik if my father is Pashtun, and all the fathers before were all Pashtuns. My mother is not Tajik and neither are any of my grandmothers. They maybe Farsi zuban, doesnt make them a Tajik.

I just asked because Dari has been my first language, that is what my question was pertaining to. So because of Dari was my first language.....am I considered a Tajiki Pashtun just according to this thread? That is what i am asking

Afghan Tajik and Pashtun Tajik doesn't even make sense.

I agree.

[khyaal]

Thanks Nick for your valuable post and your clarification of Tajik varieties. So it is the Pashtun Tajiks who constitute most of the so-called Tajik community, just like Abdulah Abdulah whose father was from Kandahar but Abdulah himself is mistakenly considered as Tajik though he can speak much better Pashto than Asfandyar Wali Khan.

[Nokia_Apridy]

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[afghan]

if this is the case pashtun tajiks and tajik tajiks, hazara tajiks , uzbec tajiks , turman tajiks, then how about the pashtuns living in panjab, the kakezai tribes are the ruling elites of panjab, who serves the interests of non-pashtun, but how can we ignore the pashtuns of mianwali and attak areas, who have adopted saraiki and panjabi as their first language, can we consider them pashtun? or they are panjabies now.

[Nick]

Afghan Tajik and Pashtun Tajik doesn't even make sense.

By Afghan Tajik by this I wanted to relate Farsi speakers who had past experence of being an afghan and like other Afghan tribe fought and lived inside Afghan Land (South of Oxus, to Arabian Ocean, and from East of Iranian Deserts to Indus River), these people were even amongst those fight Alexander I will get to those tribal names later on but for now you have to understand that by Pashtun Tajik and Afghan Tajik we have divided the time frame.

Pashtun Tajiks refers to recent converted Pashtuns specially in the north such in Takhar where 75% of the people speaks Dari 15% Uzbeki. Over the years since God knows when but this Takhar has always been the center of Kuchis and they always come there no-matter where they go, one thought that gets us back to Yuechi or Yuezhi tribes of central Asia, who were roamed around Amo Darya as far as India and Chinese Borders, and came back to Takhar which titled them to be Takari tribe.

Interestingly as years past in the course of development and globalization/modernization the Kuchi year after year started settle down and if spoke Pashtu in one generation the next generation was lost and their new generation were labled Tajik. However they are lost in terms of theirLanguage, after all 1st,2nd and 3rd and sometimes up to 4rd generations, minority languages cannot be kept, however tribes don't easly loss their roots specially in the region like afghanistan where tribalism rules. Takharis speak Dari inside Family and outside their homes, but their tribal names or past family root takes them back to Ghalji or other kuchi tribes, same as our Mohmmadzi, Noorzai and like me Ahmadzai brothers. After all demographics of Afghanistan since day one was all based on tongue, not based on tribes, so you my dear have to remember that.

Well you might argue 'Nick Pashtun=Afghan so why create cunfusion' my answer is simple. Just to how I divided these two words based on their reflected time frame.
Afghan Tajiks in terms of pre-Islamic tribes that existed in Afghanistan might of been even fighting Alexander, bottom point which means there was no Dari nor Pashtu language, until mid Islamic era and since then they decided to be "Dari" speakers.

The Other Pashtun Tajiks are newly or frashly converted Pashtuns into Dari speakers, which is why I also gave you example of Takhar province as being highly populated Dari speakers yet continous Kuchi movement resulted in Kuchi settlement over the years, and these Kuchis into Dari speakers still have their tribal roots remains amongst most of them. To me Takhar is an Afghan populated province with less than 25% as being "Others" (Tajikistanis/Uzbeks/Hazaras)

if this is the case pashtun tajiks and tajik tajiks, hazara tajiks , uzbec tajiks , turman tajiks, then how about the pashtuns living in panjab, the kakezai tribes are the ruling elites of panjab, who serves the interests of non-pashtun, but how can we ignore the pashtuns of mianwali and attak areas, who have adopted saraiki and panjabi as their first language, can we consider them pashtun? or they are panjabies now.

You can't compare a more strong Pashtun classified groups to a weaker and less alike groups. Pashtun or Pashtu speakers are tribal people, the division between them was the result of Tribalism. The Pashtu population comes in bulk and tribes/clans where as Tajiks comes in individuals. For the pashtun tribe there are many possiblities of speaking more than 3 languages but for a Tajik classifed group has to be one language and that is Persian. For Pashtun family anywhere in the world would know their roots and backround, even if they don't speak their language Pashtu, where as Tajik? LOL they can only survive with naming their name, their father's name and their grandfather's name lol Maximun, where as to us Afghans I don't know about Pashtuns but us Farsiwans have to know our 7th forfather's name. This minimum 7th forefather is only alive practice amongst Afghans, not amongst Turkic persian speakers ie Tajiks. Remember when we curse someone so bad trying to curse their roots we say in Dari say "Ba Haft Pusht-e-tu nalat"

if this is the case pashtun tajiks and tajik tajiks, hazara tajiks , uzbec tajiks , turman tajiks,

You see my friend you have to understand the term and its application. Tajik? who is Tajik? what is their culture? what kind of Food? what is their tradition? How do they behave in terms of their Code of Society as well as their dress, cloths, religion, and commonality?

I lived in the country where everything is considered "Tajik" from dress, to marriages, and traditions, and overall commonality of culture, language/accent as well as food, ritual and everything in between. I as an Afghanistan's Tajik citizen, being from middle class and someone, from a family of educated Dari speakers and my grandfather being professer in U of K teaching Dari litrature, considered Tajik by the so called "World Media" yet from every aspect felt like this Tajikistan was another foreign country, everything was different and foreign, only common thing I shared with them was my language is what we shared but even that, it took me 6 months to understand their jokes and yak yaks.

SO you better think about this over and over again and ask yourself the question, are these Tajiks same alike. But first find out how and who labled them as "tajik". Hey their tongue is what labled them "Tajik". If the high class Indians muslim families still spoke Farsi today as they did 400 years ago. I am damn sure India would hold world's largest Tajik population lol that would changed history from day one.

[Nick]

Thanks Nick for your valuable post and your clarification of Tajik varieties. So it is the Pashtun Tajiks who constitute most of the so-called Tajik community, just like Abdulah Abdulah whose father was from Kandahar but Abdulah himself is mistakenly considered as Tajik though he can speak much better Pashto than Asfandyar Wali Khan.

Dear Khyaal Abdhula is not the only one but also Ismail Khan, Jan Mohammad etc many other famous persons and commando/warlords. Again I have to remind people that their tongue counts them as Tajiks. The western or world media are not aware of the past historical connection of Dari to Afghan land, something started by Russians have now deep into our pastpost and ID carts. Just as my cousins upon entering Iran, the Iranian authorities rightaway gave them ID card labled them as Tajik. Why? Because that's how Afghanistan's demographic was represented, because they spoke Farsi therefore they are Tajiks. If you speak Dari you are Tajik, it doesn't matter even your forefathers were decendents of Dost Mohammad.

[Shayesta]

^ About Nawid Orokzai, I very well remember visiting his Youtube channel where he had extremely anti-Pukhtoon videos as his favorites. Please do me a favor that if you ever meet him in real life again then tell him to feel more than free to change his surname to Orokzadeh. I will be thankful.

just like Abdulah Abdulah whose father was from Kandahar but Abdulah himself is mistakenly considered as Tajik.

That's not true. Two of my relatives have worked with Ahmad Shah Massoud and therefore also with Abdullah Abdullah and next to them entire Jalalabad knows that Abdullah Abdullah is a Panjsheri and only reason he has to identitify himself as a Pukhtoon is for the national support. Yes, he was born a Kandahari but not to Pukhtoon parents.

[Nick]

So Nick,
If you learn Pashto, you are a Pashtun?

I don't mean by that, put it this way you learn German language are you gonna be German? Well what if 250 years passed since your root came to Germany from lets say Poland. (Sorry I have read alot about Polish history so I am going to reflect on Poland immigrants) Germany holds the most highest number of "Polish" immigrants and yet Polish identity in Germany has been disapeared. They have become Germans.

In in the same spactrum if a family decided to move from Baghdad to Zabul, and 300 years passes I am very sure their not only going to be proud "Pashtuns" but also practice afghan tribalism as as far as even be a Pashtun nationalist.
Because in the course of 300 years, many things will happen to this "Baghdadi" family intermarriages are going to take place and that mixes the DNA as well lol so we are not talking about adapting only Pashtun Society alone but also adapting Pashtun mentality, religion, practices, tradition and everything in between.

Since they live in the tribal province I am very sure these 300 years old Baghdadi family's decendents will have their own Pashtun "Tribe" or family tree. Something they must formed as its part of Afghan law.
To me 300 years is still new, because notion of being Baghdadi may still live, however 500 years? now we are talking.

[Nick]

^ About Nawid Orokzai, I very well remember visiting his Youtube channel where he had extremely anti-Pukhtoon videos as his favorites. Please do me a favor that if you ever meet him in real life again then tell him to feel more than free to change his surname to Orokzadeh. I will be thankful.


That's not true. Two of my relatives have worked with Ahmad Shah Massoud and therefore also with Abdullah Abdullah and next to them entire Jalalabad knows that Abdullah Abdullah is a Panjsheri and only reason he has to identitify himself as a Pukhtoon is for the national support. Yes, he was born a Kandahari but not to Pukhtoon parents.

Are you sure cause at Youtube Orokzaistudio is his Personal Channel.

[Shayesta]

^ Yeah, except for I doubt your 'Dari-roots' is going beyond 500 years and nor do I think you ever have been a national of a county of which Pukhtoons were not a part, were ya? And those Baghdadis may become Pukhtoons because they left their original country and it's impossible for them to bring back their culture, language and etcetera after centuries. But you haven't left your country, nor are you parted from your roots and nor is your 'original' language alien to you. There you go.

[Nick]

^ Yeah, except for I doubt your 'Dari-roots' is going beyond 500 years and nor do I think you ever have been a national of a county of which Pukhtoons were not a part, were ya? And those Baghdadis may become Pukhtoons because they left their original country and it's impossible for them to bring back their culture, language and etcetera after centuries. But you haven't left your country, nor are you parted from your roots and nor is your 'original' language alien to you. There you go.

I was refering to in terms of "Society" I live in the society where Pashtu si not spoken and therefore I don't speak pashtu.

[Shayesta]

^ And you can't go back, nor are bothered to go back?

[Nick]

^ And you can't go back, nor are bothered to go back?

Don't get Personal LOL I tried because I love Pashtu, maybe in the future inshallah. But hey our discussion is based on people, not on the personal level. Besides before 1970s no body cared about Pashtu language, come-on my dear you know this very well, even our kings of being Pashtun rulers didn't care.