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This is why im against calling Pashtuns East Iranians
"There is a close substantive connection between
Afghan foreign policy and the complex linkages between
domestic politics and the issues areas determined by the
sequence of historical events. Insigh:s into the Pashtun
Kational Movement and the struggle against Imperialism
confirm the view that the transaction patterns over the
Pashtunistan issue in recent times con3titute a case of
historical continuity. The efforts of successive regimes in
l\abul to cope with the political and C•)nstitutional issues
cnnot be adequately assessed unless we take into consideration
the "spill-over" effects of the evolutlon of Pashtun identity
as it confronted the divergent sources, motivations and modes
of imperialist expansion." -
We are East Iranians though, why is that an issue? The text you posted doesn't talk about the East Iranian identity.Originally posted by Afghanfootball View PostComment
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Id rather it be East Aryan. I know its the same meaning but we have a country today named Iran. It should be West Aryan, East Aryan, Nuristani, Indo Aryan.Originally posted by Sarbani View PostComment
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Aryan and Indo-Iranian are synonymous. The East Aryans (Indo-Iranians) are Indics, not East Iranics. East Iranics, along with West Iranics, are the western branch of Aryans (Indo-Iranians).Originally posted by Afghanfootball View Post
Using the term Aryan as a replacement for Iranian would be inaccurate and confusing as well. Also, the name Aryan has been tainted already. If I want to look up info regarding Iranics, then I just type Iranic into Google and many results appear. However, if I type Aryan, then Indians and Nazis pop up everywhere.Comment
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My problem is that the word is now associated to much with the modern nation of Iran. Having Iranian and Indo Aryan is disrespectful to Afghanistan. They use the term Iranian because they want to prove Afghanistan was apart of the Iran Shahr.Originally posted by Sarbani View PostComment
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Having the term "Iranian" just focuses too much on the country of "Iran". There is a reason why the sub-race that Iranians and Afghans belong to (in the Causacian race) is known as Irano-Afghan race, rather than Iranian race. A great replacement for the term "Iranic" or "Iranian" is "Aryan".Originally posted by Sarbani View Post"If a lion comes and takes your share, go get it back from the mouth of the lion"Comment
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You are a moron, should we rename Germanic languages as well because of your puerile pettiness and intellectual inadequacies? Iranic is the established academic term. All Iranian languages are derived from Proto-Iranian which split from Indo-Aryan. Proto Indo-Iranian=Aryan.Originally posted by Afghanfootball View Post
Disrespectful to Afghanistan? Only for retarded Afghan nationalists like you who believe Afghanistan as presently constituted has existed since time immemorial. Maybe we should just rename Iranic languages to OssetianTajikiAfghaniPamiruihiuefhiufhiuwfh because you can't separate the modern nation-state of Iran from its academic usage.Comment
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Is'nt 'Iran' a modern word?. I am uncomfortable with this term 'Iranic", it shows us to be some kind of lackeys of modern day Iranians. I am no expert on anthropology, so what the hell is this Irano-Afghan race? Irano-Afghan race - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaComment
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Iran is derived from Aryan, Iran literally means land of Aryans. In Iranian languages stan means place of/land of, such is Afghanistan, Uzbekistan etc. Iran is a shortene version of it. According to Avestan the holy book of Zoroastrians Aryanam vejeh was the original homeland of Aryan tribes, most likely somewhere in central Asia. Aryan literally means "Noble". From there the Aryans migrated down southwards, one branch the Iranians settled in modern day Iran, Afghanistan, Pakhtunkhwa, Tajikistan, central Asia and the other branch invaded and settled in India also known as Aryan Invasion. In Afghanistan and Pakhtunkhwa the Iranian tribes displaced the Origiinal inhabitants of the land most likely Dravidians and pushed them towards India, thats why you can still find Brahuis, a dravidian language in Balochistan surrounded by Pashtuns and Baloch.Originally posted by History of Pashtuns View Post
This is the inscription from Naqsh e Rustam of king Darius from Acheminid period aproximately 500 BC
I am Darius, the great king, the king of kings
The king of many countries and many people
The king of this expansive land,
The son of Wishtaspa of Achaemenid,
Persian, the son of a Persian,
'Aryan', from the Aryan race -
So Darius says he is persian of Aryan lineage meaning Persians were just one of the tribes of Aryans, Medians, Parthians, Pactyans, Bactrians, Soghdians etc were other tribes. Herodutus the Greek historians says the land of the Aryans extends upto Indus River and on the other side are the Indians.
The Sassanians who were the successors of Achaemenids called it Eran Shahr and Eran Shar includes land from Eastern Turkey to Eastern china and Ferghana Valley down to Indus River. So Although Iran is a modern name it is derived from Aryan or Aryana.Comment
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[MENTION=18139]Shapur[/MENTION]
The Brahuis are mostly agreed upon now to have migrated from Central India 1000 years ago. There is 0 proof of any Dravidian inhabitants being native to modern Iranian lands (except for I guess the Elamites of Southwest Iran who are only rumored to be closely related to Dravidians).Comment
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Correct, modern Brahuis are genetically very distant from Dravidians.Originally posted by Sarbani View Post
My genetic analysis using formal methods that give information on population histories further back in time has shown that the closest genetically to some Brahui samples are Kurds. With some samples the Kurd-Brahui similarity was even greater than the Kurd-Baloch genetic similarity!
There is still a Brahui tribe by the name of Kurd in Pakistan, and a google search with "Brahui Kurd ' may bring up some articles.
I was able to find a few 19th century, and early 20th century books, that reference the Kurd-Brahui connection, written by individuals, whom I like to refer to as expeditionary Historians or perhaps Anthropologists associated with British India. These digitized books are available for download via google. The material I post comes right out of those books, and I have made no attempt to correct spelling.
Here is material from the 1st of several books that I will refer to over the next few weeks.
CENSUS OF INDIA, 1901.
Volume I.
BY
H. H. RISLET, I.C.S., O.I.E.,
OFFICER OP THE FRENCH ACADEMY,
COBBE8PONDINQ MEMBER OF BERLIN ANTHROPOLOGICAL SOCIETY.
CALCUTTA :
OFFICE OF TEE SUPERINTENDENT OF GOVERNMENT PRINTING, INDIA.
1903.
Page 66
From the references in Sir H. Elliot's History of India, Vol. I., it may be pretty certainly be concluded that the Brahui kingdom as it now exists is co-extensive with the countries which were known to the early geographers as Makran, Turan, with its capital ut Khozdar, and Nudha (otherwise called Budha by Elliot), with its capital at Kaudabel or Kandail, the modern Gandava.
The principal population of these countries consisted of Jats and people resembling the KURDS. Now both General Cunningham and Colonel Tod agree that the Jats were of the Scythian stock, and the name Turan is used by Persian historians to distinguish the countries
beyond the Oxus river from those to the south of it.
Page 67
The Bangulzai, the Langav, and the Lehri are described as branches of the Rinds, that is, of the Baloch, and tho Ex- Khan net s that they were in Baluchistan before the Brahuis. The Raisani, Saparra, and Shahwani are said to be Afghans, while the KURDS and Muhammad Hasni or Mamasani came from Persia. The Bizanjo, Vengal, Sajdi, and Zehri are put down as Jagdals or Jag 'als, i.e., Jats. but the chief of the Zehris is said to be an Afghan. Finally the Muhammad Shahi and Nichari are described as very ancient inhabitants of the country, who were living in it previous to the advent of the Rinds.
Page 68
Now the historians whom I have quoted speak of the Jats as originally inhabiting the country, and indicate that they were followed by the KURDS and Baloch. At the same time there are indications of an influx of Afghans from the east, for we find the Raisanis, who are Afghans, assisting the Brahui rulers to get possession of Kalat from the Baloch. The details therefore given by the Ex-Khan are of special interest ; in that they tally almost exactly with the waves of migration which we know to have passed over the country.
Next to the Langavs the Bangulzais are the most numerous among the Brahuis. The tribe has been largely recruited from outsiders, and one of its clans, the Garranis, speak Balochi, whilst the rest speak Brahui. Their head-quarters are situated at Isplinji, which is said to have been conquered from the KURDS, and they also hold land at Mastung and in Kachhi.
Groups bearing this name are to be found scattered throughout Baluchistan, and I am told that there are some among the Punjab Baloch also. It is a curious thing, that, among the people of Las Bela, KURD is the appellation in general use for the Brahuis and KURDI for the Brahui language. The KURDS in Baluchistan are, without doubt, descended from the KURDS of KURDISTAN in Northern Persia, but they early appear to have migrated southward, and we hear of a portion of them inhabiting Kirman in 934 A.D.
The importance which the tribe has acquired among the Brahuis is due to its position in the Dasht-i-bedaulat at the head of the Bolan Pass, whence they had ample opportunity for exercising their predatory habits. One of their largest clans, the Satakzais, is now practically independent of the main body.
Page 71
But with the process of integration was involved another, viz., disintegration ; and so we find groups of tribesmen breaking away from the parent stock and either setting up for themselves, like the KURDS at the head of the Bolan, or attaching themselves to some other tribe.
Wa janaana dumra kho kawa
Ma cherta pa hera yaadawaComment
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[MENTION=18350]Dilawerkhan[/MENTION]
Why do Balochis not speak a language that belongs within the Kurdish languages grouping? Balochi, like Zaza, is a Northwest Iranic language like Azari and the Kurdish languages are, but they aren't classified as a Kurdish language.
Also, keep in mind that the term Kurd was just used for West Iranic nomads and didn't have a proper ethnic designation until relatively recently. This would explain why the Balochis use the term Kurd, Brahuis would have acquired it from them. Even the Lurs, who are a subgroup of Persians called themselves Kurd in the distant past because they were nomadic.
Because of the very loose and liberal original meaning of Kurd and linguistics, I don't think Balochis are descended from Kurds proper, but from a NW Iranic group closely related to the Kurds similar to the Azaris/Talysh and Zazas are.Comment
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That is correct Balochi is a NW Iranic language like kurdi, but if you do a little research you will find that from the NW Iranic languages it is classified as most similar to Kurdi.Originally posted by Sarbani View Post
You bring up an interesting point about Kurd being used as a term for W Iranic nomads. I have never seen this mentioned anywhere, but I will say this. Kurds cover a huge geographic area from Turkey to Khorasan (Iran), where there are about 1.5 million Kurds ( CSKK) and in Balochistan. I have always suspected that because of this extended geographic region, that Kurds are not homogenous, and in fact made up of various ancient central and west asian tribes. My DNA analysis confirmed this. Although admixture calculators which rely on recent drift was showing some uniformity within Kurds in general, formal methods which dig deeper in time, showed large diversity within Kurds, sometimes even between Kurds within the same geographic area, such as NE Iraq. With some samples, I was able to see greater central Asian input farther back in time, and with others, more Mediterranian or Caucuses.
To settle the question of specifically which NW Iranian samples the Balochi/Brahui had the most ancestral input, I compared various samples from NW Iran, NE Iraq, Turkey, Syria, and the caucuses area with Balochi and Brahui samples. The results showed that Iraqi Kurd samples were more similar to many Balochi and Brahui samples using formal methods than the other ones mentioned. The conclusion was that SOME Balochi/Brahui tribes were derived from SOME Kurd tribes. So yes, the Kurds themselves are derived from various ancient tribes.
BTW, majority Lurs are in fact Kurds and speak a dialect of Gorani Kurdi.Last edited by Dilawerkhan; 05-02-2016, 11:37 AM.
Wa janaana dumra kho kawa
Ma cherta pa hera yaadawaComment
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