Where Kabul and Afghanistan two separate nations in medieval times?

[Kushan Prince]

Correct yourself, Elphinstone was not the first historian who asserted pashtun origin of Ghor. Abbas Khan Sherwani of Mughal Emperor's court, in his "Tarikh-i-sher Shahi" mentions that Sher Shah descended from royal family of Ghor. Sir Elphinstone himself uses reference of Qasim ferishta who did talk about Sooris of Ghor but the word Afghan is not present in original persian text. British confused the Afghan tribe of suri with Suri/Shanshabani line of ghor.

I never said that he asserted a pashtun origin of ghor but claimed ghorids as Pashtun.

bbas Khan Sherwani of Mughal Emperor's court, in his "Tarikh-i-sher Shahi" mentions that Sher Shah descended from royal family of Ghor.

Its possible he may have been correct.

British confused the Afghan tribe of suri with Suri/Shanshabani line of ghor

The british got something right for once. They were indeed Pashtuns. You need to do more reading from all sources including afghans ones, not just secondary sources.

[Smarty]

Pashtuns didn't even arrive in Quetta until the 10th century so how there have been presence of Pakhtuns past the north? All these Ghrughast and Sarbani Pashtun tribes living there came from around Afghanistan, they have not been living there since antiquity as you believe. Brahui and Baloch are both intercharbale terms, and they see each other as the same people. Seriously, there is no mention of Pashtuns living in mastung or karachi or that many baloch tribes were originally Pashtun. Pashtuns are a strong people, i don't think they would have easily accepted being conquered and accepting the culture of other people and letting them settle on their land. Some Balochi nationalists say the original name of Quetta was "Shal-e-Kot."



This sentence is highly offensive to Balochis.

I used word "Kachchi" not karachi, Bolan area is called Kachchi. And Shal region included Pishin, Quetta and Shorawak district of Afghanistan. Ahamd Shah Abdali rewarded this region to Nasir Khan, chief of Kalat, as a gift. Dhadar area of Barozai Afghans was also granted to Bruhis. Quetta at that time was inhabited by kansi or Kasi tribe of Pashtuns who significatly got weakened after their annexation to Kalat. The settlement of Bruhis in southren parts of Quetta took place in the times of Nasir khan. Balochs claim Quetta because it was granted to them by Ahmad Shah Abdali. Not just Quetta but also Pishin.

[Smarty]

. You need to do more reading from all sources including afghans ones, not just secondary sources.

You mean pata khazana of alama habibi and his research article on ancestry of Amir kror Suri?

[Kushan Prince]

I used word "Kachchi" not karachi, Bolan area is called Kachchi. And Shal region included Pishin, Quetta and Shorawak district of Afghanistan. Ahamd Shah Abdali rewarded this region to Nasir Khan, chief of Kalat, as a gift. Dhadar area of Barozai Afghans was also granted to Bruhis. Quetta at that time was inhabited by kansi or Kasi tribe of Pashtuns who significatly got weakened after their annexation to Kalat. The settlement of Bruhis in southren parts of Quetta took place in the times of Nasir khan. Balochs claim Quetta because it was granted to them by Ahmad Shah Abdali. Not just Quetta but also Pishin.

Ahmad Shah let the khans of kalat rule independenatly but governed parts of their land. Honestly, i feel like your just repeating yourself.

Balochs claim Quetta because it was granted to them by Ahmad Shah Abdali. Not just Quetta but also Pishin

Ahmad Shah didn't give them anything. I think Quetta's alternative name could have been shah-i-kot. There is also a member on this forum from Quetta with that name as his username and he is Pashtun.

[Smarty]

Ahmad Shah let the khans of kalat rule independenatly but governed parts of their land. Honestly, i feel like your just repeating yourself.



Ahmad Shah didn't give them anything. I think Quetta's alternative name could have been shah-i-kot. There is also a member on this forum from Quetta with that name as his username and he is Pashtun.

Chalo pregda, zrra ma khwra. Increase your knowledge, Read my some recent articles here http://www.khyber.org/

[Brown Skinned Savage]

I think you fail to realize that the ghorids were a NATIVE dynasty who were persianized. The first historian to align them with Pashtuns was an irish historian by the name of "Mountstuart Elphinstone" after that nobody knew or heard of them until Iranians became more interested about them can started claiming them as persians. Many Pashtuns i know see them as a native Pashtun dynasty.

The problem with Pashtun history is that we tend to believe our own bullsh*t. We shove all the unflattering stuff under the rugs and embelish/over exaggerate the notable things a handful of Pashtuns did. We think if one Pashtun does something kind of cool that means "We" did it. By the way all you seem to be doing is parroting statements on Wikipedia. Which is fine but the citations themselves are a bit wobbly because these claims when Wesstern Scholarship on Afghanology was still in its infancy.

In India; it became a fashion to call everyone North of the Hindu Kush "Kabliwala" whether they were from Kabul or not; and likewise many people were called "Afghan" whether they were Pashtun or not. This seems to be what Elphinstone is extracting. Furthermore Ibn Battuta refers to Afghans a tribe of Persians called Afghans; indicating that a.) Afghans may have been originally Persian b.) Afghan had more than one meaning. (source:http://books.google.com/books?id=zKq...page&q&f=false)

so this idea that Ghorids were Pashtuns is very flimsy. There is no reic relating to Pashtun or Pashtu in any Ghorid relic.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

I'd take Smarty's opinion over Kushan's ...Smarty has sound references ..Kushan made an allusion to a reference (Elpinstone), which I suspect he just learned from Wikipedia rather than his own research, but even this reference is too ambiguous to take seriously.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Ghurids", C.E. Bosworth, Online Edition, 2006: "... There is nothing to confirm the recent surmise that the Ghūids were Pashto-speaking [...] the Paṭa Khazāna "Treasury of secrets", claims to include Pashto poetry from the Ghūid period, but the significance of this work has not yet been evaluated ..."

[Afghanfootball]

Tbh I'm taking kushan's side

[Kushan Prince]

Chalo pregda, zrra ma khwra. Increase your knowledge, Read my some recent articles here http://www.khyber.org/

Wrora, all of your references are also quoted on wikipedia. If we call whats on wikipedia wrong, then we should call your sources fabricated as well.

For the record, i'm no newbie on this topic, i've been researching intensively on our people's history since 2008 and my journey is far from done.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Wrora, all of your references are also quoted on wikipedia. If we call whats on wikipedia wrong, then we should call your sources fabricated as well.

For the record, i'm no newbie on this topic, i've been researching intensively on our people's history since 2008 and my journey is far from done.

Which ones .....can you elaborate?

I'm sorry I feel the need to arbitrate because you're doing a classic "skirt and ditch" tactic when challenged to provide sound sources.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Tbh I'm taking kushan's side

Are you doing so out of Pashtun ego or out of genuine intellectual substance based on evidence and academic responsibility.

If you say you're doing so from academic responsibility; can you give a sound and detailed explanation on what merits does Kushan's opinion hold based on accepted academically corroborated evidence.

[Smarty]

Wrora, all of your references are also quoted on wikipedia. If we call whats on wikipedia wrong, then we should call your sources fabricated as well.

For the record, i'm no newbie on this topic, i've been researching intensively on our people's history since 2008 and my journey is far from done.

Which ones are quoted from Wikipedia? I consult books, not Wikis as source material. Do point out the "fabricated" parts in my articles, i would be glad to discuss that with you as you yourself are a researcher.

Edit: Turns out, you are the one consulting Wikipedia in discussion with me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetta_District. Your "Shal-kot" comes from there. The correct and actual name was Shal and nowadays Quetta is derived from Pashto word Quota meaning "room" in general sense but was also used for fort. Shal had a famous fort. Even your source speaks the half-correct statement that it "was" inhabited by Kasi or Kansi tribe (A pashtun tribe). The fact is rural Quetta is still populated by Kasi tribe. You must have heard the name of Aimal Kasi or Kansi. In case you are wondering , Kansis are Sarabanis.

[Smarty]

As you are not Wiki-boy and is into the research so i wont say any thing further without citing any source. I am giving you references for my previous posts. And I think i have to use maps as you are quite clueless about geography.

1-Bruhi speaking Raisanis of Mastung

a-According to Rai Hatu Ram the Raisani Afghans (Tarins P-172 and-570) came from Kandahar via Pishin and occupied the Thal-Chotiali area. Rais Khan Tarin, with a band of his clan, occupied Kalat, while Mastung with adjoining area was then occupied by the other Afghan tribes and there was no trace of the Brahuis or Balochs in the area (Rai Hatu Ram, Tarikh-i-Balochistan, page-172).

b-Siwa, a Hindu raja and the first ruler of Kalat, is mentioned in the pages of history. After him, Kalat changed hands to the Mughals, Mirwanis and Baloch Rinds successively. In the battle between the Mirwanis and Rind Balochs, Umar Khan Mirwani, the chief got killed. His widow, with her minor son, named Bajaru Khan took refuge in Mastung with the Pashtuns. Subsequently Bajaru Khan married the daughter of a local Pashtun notable. With the help of the Raisanis, Bajaru Khan defeated and killed Mandu Baloch and occupied Kalat. Bajaru Khan granted some land to the Siahi clan of Raisanis, which is still held by them. With the passage of time the Siahis merged with the Mengal Balochs and gradually lost their identity as Tarin Pashtuns and moved over to Jhalawan. Later, Mir Bajaru abandoned Kalat and became a recluse. The Mughals, who were waiting in the wings, occupied Kalat; however, the Raisanis along with the neighboring Baloch clans, drove away the Mughals, and Mir Hasan Khan Ahmadzai Qambrani Brahui was proclaimed as the ruler of Kalat. The Brahuis from all over Balochistan concentrated in and around Kalat and established a powerful Khanate in the area. (Haroon Rashid, "History of the Pathans", Vol-I, page-67)

c-From Rais Khan originated the Raisanis whereas his four sons, namely, Siahi, Raosteen, Rustom and Siraj founded the four sub clans of the Raisanis, which are named after them as the Siahizi, Raoseenzi, Rustomzi and Sirajzi respectively.The descendants of the first three sons still form one group, but the Rustamzdis
hava long been at feud with the other two, and have now, to all intents and purposes, set up for themselves under a separate Chief. The descendants of Sidhi,
the Sidhizi, have joined the Mengals in the Jhalwan division of the Brahuis. During the rule of Mir Nasir Khan of Kalat, the southern portion of the Khanate was named as Sarawan and Sardar Abdul Nabi Khan Raisani was appointed as Khan of the area.The descendants of the first three sons still form one group, but the Rustamzais have long been at feud with the other two, and have now, to all intents and purposes, set up for themselves under a separate Chief. The descendants of Siahi, the Siahizai, have joined the Mengals in the Jhalwan division of the Brahuis. (Census of India, 1901)


So Raisanis were once even in possession of Kalat before Brauhis and Balochs. Note that Raisanis of Ziarat speak Pashto.

[Smarty]

Presence of Afghans in Sibi in 16th century
I have already given reference of Ain-i-Akbari in my previous post, also consult "Tarikh-i-Masumi", page-345. For further details on the matter buy book "Afghans of the fronteir passes" volume 1 and check page 125 there.

Here is map of Sibi , historically known as Siwi or Siwistan.