Where Kabul and Afghanistan two separate nations in medieval times?

[Smarty]

Considering the fact that Pashtuns have no written history, its going to be hard to pin point a proper place of origin for them not to mention the fact that Pashtuns are a mixture of many different people. Many tribes were not originally Pashtun in the past, like the Karlani Pashtuns who became Pashtunized and adopted Pashto language and culture. Even the Wazirwola dialect is very hard to understand and there is an impression among some Pashtuns that it is not even originally pashto.

Do tell us when did Karlanries become Pashtunized? and what was their old language?......on one hand you are demanding proofs and on another hand you yourself are saying stuff without sources and references.

And nope Ghor is not original or old abode of Pashtuns, It is "Ghar" i.e the Koh Suleiman range from where Saraban, Ghurghashti and Bhittani confederation of tribes have originated. The confusion of Ghar with Ghor is discussed by renowned historian H.G Raverty in his book, "Notes on Afghanistan and Balochistan".

[Kushan Prince]

Do tell us when did Karlanries become Pashtunized? and what was their old language?......on one hand you are demanding proofs and on another hand you yourself are saying stuff without sources and references.

And nope Ghor is not original or old abode of Pashtuns, It is "Ghar" i.e the Koh Suleiman range from where Saraban, Ghurghashti and Bhittani confederation of tribes have originated. The confusion of Ghar with Ghor is discussed by renowned historian H.G Raverty in his book, "Notes on Afghanistan and Balochistan".

Sorry bro but if it seems like your falling into the the trap of tajik propaganda with the suliman mountain theory. They also force us to believe Pashtuns originate from there since they are obssesed with calling pashtuns "pakis." Balochistan like Quetta didn't have a Pashtun settlement until recently, most of the tribes there there are sarabani and they were not originally native there.

My theory on Karlani Pashtuns come from our own people which has also been disccsused on this this forum before. If we go by Pashtun mythology, then Karlan was the adopted son of Qais not his true blood relative thus not making him a true Pashtun.

[Kushan Prince]

I actually think that some Pashtuns in Northern Afghanistan such as Kunduz could have some Tajik ancestry. For example, celebrating Nowruz is done in family that hails from Northern Afghanistan with as much festivity as it is done in Tajik households. I also have noticed how some of my relatives give a Eurasian vibe like many Tajiks do. I wonder why. My family's ancestry is Sarbani, so they are not part of the Ghilzai kuchis that were relocated to Northern Kunduz during the past. They've been land owners for a very long time. From what they know, they don't remember when they came to Kunduz, and they don't know which province they used to live in previous to their settlement in Kunduz. They've been there for a while and are on good terms with the neighbouring ethnicities to the point where one of uncles is now the "Malik" of the Pashtuns, Uzbeks, Tajiks and Turkmen of his area. Most people in my family speak Pashto and Dari bilingually, but I also have many relatives that only speak Dari. My family also isn't very endogamous like other Pashtun families. I have many relatives from other ethnic groups. Point being, I think many families in Afghanistan could have been "pashtunized" somehow through the sands of time, the same way many Pashtuns have been "persianized". Who is to say that some of the Pashtuns in the north aren't foreigners but were once Tajiks who have now become Pashtun? There are some Tajik families in Laghman for example that speak Pashto but consider themselves Tajik. Surely, after a few centuries, they too will consider themselves Pashtun. Nonetheless, this phenomenon could also be due to the fact that many Pashtun men in my family (and in some other families in the north) took Tajik females for wives, and these females started incorporating many Tajik traditions into my family's overall values and traditions.

I think my family is a Pashtun-Tajik hybrid on my father's side and a Pashtun-Nuristani hybrid on my mother's side, and they ended up considering themselves Pashtun due to patriarchal reasons, i.e. the belief that you are only your father's ancestry. Likewise, I think many Pashtuns, especially those out of Loy Kandahar who now reside in the North or even in Laghman, Kunar and Nangarhar have some Tajik and Nuristani ancestry (Nuristani, especially, in the case of the latter).

P.S: An interesting thing to note is that one Pashtun from Kunduz has an admixture result that is starkly similar to a Tajik admixture result rather than what would be expected of a Pashtun result. Similarly, I find it interesting that Tajiks and Pashtuns share R1a and how this R1a haplogroup is even found in small numbers amongst the Hazaras. Clearly this shows that some intermixing has been happening for a while, and it also shows that some Tajiks and Pashtuns have a common recent ancestor, meaning that both Tajiks and Pashtuns most likely hail from the same region, but have now settled in different regions!

Pashtansjan,

Most Pashtuns in the north regardless of what tribe they come from are not native there. most were forcefully settled there thanks to abdur Rahman's pashtunization policies at the time. My great grandfather didn't come to these regions until the 1940s and I think the same is true for your family. Also I discussed in another another thread with you already that tajiks are not an ethnic group unlike pashtuns so the likely scenario of some pashtuns being tajiks is improbable. Many if not all the tajiks are just persianized pashtuns who adopted farsi at one point in history. Secondly genetics the way your interpreting is wrong, Northern Indian Brahmins and eastern European show high amounts of it as well yet I fail to see the relationship between them or how they even look like each other.

Golden rule is: if don't belong to a tribe then your not native.

[Smarty]

Sorry bro but if it seems like your falling into the the trap of tajik propaganda with the suliman mountain theory.

Alberuni , who was living at Ghazni, mentions Sulieman mountains in his memoirs, as homeland of Afghans. According to Tarikh-nama-Herat of Saif Harvi , in the 13th century, the tract of land from Mastung to Quetta to Duki (Through Sibi) to Rojhun Mazari was an integral part of the history’s first semi-sovereign state of Afghanistan, of which capital was at Mastung. Ibn-e-Batuta mentions that priciple abode of Afghans is Suleiman mountains and thats why they are often called Suilemanis. Tuzk-e-Timuri talks about subduing Afghans of Suleiman mountains in 1398 AD.

They also force us to believe Pashtuns originate from there since they are obssesed with calling pashtuns "pakis." Balochistan like Quetta didn't have a Pashtun settlement until recently, most of the tribes there there are sarabani and they were not originally native there.

Only Tareens , Sheranis, Jafars, Lunis, Hasnis and Achakzais in Balochistan are Sarabans. Other tribes like Kakars, Dawis, Mandu Khels and Pannis are Ghurghastis. The two Ghurghasti tribes, kakars and pannis are largest ones. We shouldnt modify and compare our history in competition with Tajiks and Persians, Alama Habibi was the one who fell in that trap.

My theory on Karlani Pashtuns come from our own people which has also been disccsused on this thread before. If we go by Pashtun mythology, then Karlan was the adopted son of Qais not his true blood relative thus not making him a true Pashtun.

May be. But its generally accepted that lineage tree of Pashtun tribes are accurate but not the upper most branching that shoots from fictitious Qais. Lodhi Afghans of India in Mughal court collected lineage trees from all the tribes in Roh , and it seems they had to connect all those lineage trees though a common ancestor.......Afghan nationalism was at peak in India at that time and there was efforts to unite all Afghans on single platform. The patron of the book Maghzan-i-Afghani, Khan Jahan Lodhi,himself led a rebellion against Shahjahan and tried to rally Afghans tribes of Pakhtunkhwa to his cause.

[Smarty]

Whether Afghans or Pashtuns are old or recent inhabitants of Balochistan?. The southren most Pashtun villages in Balochistan are in the Sibi district and i would prove to you that Pashtuns even used to live there in the times of Mughal emperor Akbar. I am giving you reference from Ain-i-Akbari , Volume II, page-1045
Akbar sent three armies. from 1575 to 1590, to subdue Panni Afghans of Sibi. The last campaign was led by Mir Masum who wrote Tarikh-e-masumi, he also wrote description of his war with Powerful Panni Afghans of Sibi (Pannis still live in Sibi). The Ain-i-Akbari clearly describes the amount of land revenue as well as the Afghan land owners of Duki, Harnai and Siwi tract. At that time in the whole length of this plain there were no Baloch land owners at all.

[Kushan Prince]

Alberuni , who was living at Ghazni, mentions Sulieman mountains in his memoirs, as homeland of Afghans. According to Tarikh-nama-Herat of Saif Harvi , in the 13th century, the tract of land from Mastung to Quetta to Duki (Through Sibi) to Rojhun Mazari was an integral part of the history’s first semi-sovereign state of Afghanistan, of which capital was at Mastung. Ibn-e-Batuta mentions that priciple abode of Afghans is Suleiman mountains and thats why they are often called Suilemanis. Tuzk-e-Timuri talks about subduing Afghans of Suleiman mountains in 1398 AD.



Only Tareens , Sheranis, Jafars, Lunis, Hasnis and Achakzais in Balochistan are Sarabans. Other tribes like Kakars, Dawis, Mandu Khels and Pannis are Ghurghastis. The two Ghurghasti tribes, kakars and pannis are largest ones. We shouldnt modify and compare our history in competition with Tajiks and Persians, Alama Habibi was the one who fell in that trap.


May be. But its generally accepted that lineage tree of Pashtun tribes are accurate but not the upper most branching that shoots from fictitious Qais. Lodhi Afghans of India in Mughal court collected lineage trees from all the tribes in Roh , and it seems they had to connect all those lineage trees though a common ancestor.......Afghan nationalism was at peak in India at that time and there was efforts to unite all Afghans on single platform. The patron of the book Maghzan-i-Afghani, Khan Jahan Lodhi,himself led a rebellion against Shahjahan and tried to rally Afghans tribes of Pakhtunkhwa to his cause.

I don't know what your trying to get at? Mastung is baloch land not pashtun, even the word mastung is balochi. Ibn bruni mentioned a tribe of afghans living there not the whole race, which would indicate one tribe inhabbited the whole region (probably ghilzais) and ibn bettuta mentioned afghans as a tribe of persians and makes no refference to pashtuns at all. Therefore something is up with that quote. Like i said before, Pashtuns are a mixture of different people from bactrians to kushans and from pactyans to schytians. All these people make up what we call "Pashtuns" today.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

I actually think that some Pashtuns in Northern Afghanistan such as Kunduz could have some Tajik ancestry. For example, celebrating Nowruz is done in family that hails from Northern Afghanistan with as much festivity as it is done in Tajik households. I also have noticed how some of my relatives give a Eurasian vibe like many Tajiks do. I wonder why. My family's ancestry is Sarbani, so they are not part of the Ghilzai kuchis that were relocated to Northern Kunduz during the past. They've been land owners for a very long time. From what they know, they don't remember when they came to Kunduz, and they don't know which province they used to live in previous to their settlement in Kunduz. They've been there for a while and are on good terms with the neighbouring ethnicities to the point where one of uncles is now the "Malik" of the Pashtuns, Uzbeks, Tajiks and Turkmen of his area. Most people in my family speak Pashto and Dari bilingually, but I also have many relatives that only speak Dari. My family also isn't very endogamous like other Pashtun families. I have many relatives from other ethnic groups. Point being, I think many families in Afghanistan could have been "pashtunized" somehow through the sands of time, the same way many Pashtuns have been "persianized". Who is to say that some of the Pashtuns in the north aren't foreigners but were once Tajiks who have now become Pashtun? There are some Tajik families in Laghman for example that speak Pashto but consider themselves Tajik. Surely, after a few centuries, they too will consider themselves Pashtun. Nonetheless, this phenomenon could also be due to the fact that many Pashtun men in my family (and in some other families in the north) took Tajik females for wives, and these females started incorporating many Tajik traditions into my family's overall values and traditions.

I think my family is a Pashtun-Tajik hybrid on my father's side and a Pashtun-Nuristani hybrid on my mother's side, and they ended up considering themselves Pashtun due to patriarchal reasons, i.e. the belief that you are only your father's ancestry. Likewise, I think many Pashtuns, especially those out of Loy Kandahar who now reside in the North or even in Laghman, Kunar and Nangarhar have some Tajik and Nuristani ancestry (Nuristani, especially, in the case of the latter).

P.S: An interesting thing to note is that one Pashtun from Kunduz has an admixture result that is starkly similar to a Tajik admixture result rather than what would be expected of a Pashtun result. Similarly, I find it interesting that Tajiks and Pashtuns share R1a and how this R1a haplogroup is even found in small numbers amongst the Hazaras. Clearly this shows that some intermixing has been happening for a while, and it also shows that some Tajiks and Pashtuns have a common recent ancestor, meaning that both Tajiks and Pashtuns most likely hail from the same region, but have now settled in different regions!

Yes this is actually partly to explain the ethnogenesis of Pashtuns at large. Even Ghilzais were not originally Pashtun but were Pashtunized, but they possess r1a haplogroup since they have some connection to Scythians and Khaladj Turks.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Proof?

The only tribes native to the south are Durrani and Ghilzai. Most Pashtun tribes do not come from the south, they were once spread out all over Afghanistan before countless invasions. Your theory is something a tajik would say.

No offense.

I think what he means by "proof" is having academically qualified references in support of your claim; not attempting to split hairs about words like "tribe" and making up your own narrative.

[Afghanfootball]

Do tell us when did Karlanries become Pashtunized? and what was their old language?......on one hand you are demanding proofs and on another hand you yourself are saying stuff without sources and references.

And nope Ghor is not original or old abode of Pashtuns, It is "Ghar" i.e the Koh Suleiman range from where Saraban, Ghurghashti and Bhittani confederation of tribes have originated. The confusion of Ghar with Ghor is discussed by renowned historian H.G Raverty in his book, "Notes on Afghanistan and Balochistan".

If ghor was not an abode of pashtuns then how do you explain the ghorids being based in ghor and the first emperor Amir Suri being born there

[Smarty]

If ghor was not an abode of pashtuns then how do you explain the ghorids being based in ghor and the first emperor Amir Suri being born there

1- Matti tribes of Pashtuns are, perhaps partly descended from ghorids if Pashtun oral history is to be believed......Husband of Bibi Mato, Shah Hussian Ghori was a Persian prince from line of zuhak in 55th descent. The traditional pashtun history itself doesnt consider ghorids to be pashtuns.

2- In original Persian text of tarikh-e-ferishta , there is no mention of word afghan for ghurids.......In Professor John Dowson's english translation, word afghan is added to Suri rulers of ghor. Dowson's mistranslated version of tarikh-i-ferishta is known to the world.

3- Minhaj-ud-din, a native of ghor who accompanied Shahabudin Ghori in his indian campaign , author of "tabaqat-e-nasiri" is familiar with afghans but he doesnt mention any where that ghorids themeslves were Afghans

4- Pata khazana is either fabrication of alama habibi or he modified the dates of oldest poetry in original manuscript and claimed the poets to be of ghor. The original manuscript, by Muhammad hotak in 1729 might not have included amir kror suri part. If Amir kror suri or asad suri existed, they were most likely inhabitants of ghar not ghor.

5- B.Dorn gives reference of passage in text of janabi where ghorians are mentioned as turks. Pehaps ghorians were persianized turks.

6- Pashtun nationalistic poet, khushal Khan khattak mentions Bahlol lodi, Sher Shah and Jalal ud din khilji as Pashtun rulers of hind in his poetry but he doesnt mention ghauri as pashtun king.

8- Ahmad shah abdali , in his poetry, speaks about Farid (sher shah), bahlol and hamid (lodi) as past rulers of pashtun in one of the couplet, he doesnt mention ghauri.

[Kushan Prince]

1- Matti tribes of Pashtuns are, perhaps partly descended from ghorids if Pashtun oral history is to be believed......Husband of Bibi Mato, Shah Hussian Ghori was a Persian prince from line of zuhak in 55th descent. The traditional pashtun history itself doesnt consider ghorids to be pashtuns.

2- In original Persian text of tarikh-e-ferishta , there is no mention of word afghan for ghurids.......In Professor John Dowson's english translation, word afghan is added to Suri rulers of ghor. Dowson's mistranslated version of tarikh-i-ferishta is known to the world.

3- Minhaj-ud-din, a native of ghor who accompanied Shahabudin Ghori in his indian campaign , author of "tabaqat-e-nasiri" is familiar with afghans but he doesnt mention any where that ghorids themeslves were Afghans

4- Pata khazana is either fabrication of alama habibi or he modified the dates of oldest poetry in original manuscript and claimed the poets to be of ghor. The original manuscript, by Muhammad hotak in 1729 might not have included amir kror suri part. If Amir kror suri or asad suri existed, they were most likely inhabitants of ghar not ghor.

5- B.Dorn gives reference of passage in text of janabi where ghorians are mentioned as turks. Pehaps ghorians were persianized turks.

6- Pashtun nationalistic poet, khushal Khan khattak mentions Bahlol lodi, Sher Shah and Jalal ud din khilji as Pashtun rulers of hind in his poetry but he doesnt mention ghauri as pashtun king.

8- Ahmad shah abdali , in his poetry, speaks about Farid (sher shah), bahlol and hamid (lodi) as past rulers of pashtun in one of the couplet, he doesnt mention ghauri.

I think you fail to realize that the ghorids were a NATIVE dynasty who were persianized. The first historian to align them with Pashtuns was an irish historian by the name of "Mountstuart Elphinstone" after that nobody knew or heard of them until Iranians became more interested about them can started claiming them as persians. Many Pashtuns i know see them as a native Pashtun dynasty.

[Smarty]

I don't know what your trying to get at? Mastung is baloch land not pashtun, even the word mastung is balochi. Ibn bruni mentioned a tribe of afghans living there not the whole race, which would indicate one tribe inhabbited the whole region (probably ghilzais) and ibn bettuta mentioned afghans as a tribe of persians and makes no refference to pashtuns at all. Therefore something is up with that quote. Like i said before, Pashtuns are a mixture of different people from bactrians to kushans and from pactyans to schytians. All these people make up what we call "Pashtuns" today.

You would be surprised to hear that before 1878 , Kohlu, the stronghold of Marri balochs, was totally inhabited by Zarkun Afghans. Marris took the area with the help of Bugtis.The Kachchi or Dhadar area once was inhabited by Barozai Afghans but were expelled from there by Khan of Kalat in 18th century. Mastung is not a Baloch area, Dehwari (a dialect of Persian)and brahui is spoken there. Dera Ghazi Khan was stronghold and abode of Naghar Afghans but the area was taken over by Mirrani Balochs in 16th century.

The Pashtun tribes of Mastung have got bruhized, Rasianis, zarkhail, bungalzai etc are branches of tareen tribe. Also keep in mind, in these tribal societies, demographics have drastically changed within centuries due to tribal wars and subsequent displacements.

Balochs arrived in this region just few centuries ago from Mekran side, and from Iranian balochistan.

[Smarty]

I think you fail to realize that the ghorids were a NATIVE dynasty who were persianized. The first historian to align them with Pashtuns was an irish historian by the name of "Mountstuart Elphinstone" after that nobody knew or heard of them until Iranians became more interested about them can started claiming them as persians. Many Pashtuns i know see them as a native Pashtun dynasty.

Correct yourself, Elphinstone was not the first historian who asserted pashtun origin of Ghor. Abbas Khan Sherwani of Mughal Emperor's court, in his "Tarikh-i-sher Shahi" mentions that Sher Shah descended from royal family of Ghor. Sir Elphinstone himself uses reference of Qasim ferishta who did talk about Sooris of Ghor but the word Afghan is not present in original persian text. British confused the Afghan tribe of suri with Suri/Shanshabani line of ghor.

[Smarty]

The best source on ghorids is contomperory one, "tabqat-i-nasiri" written by a native of ghor.......Minhajudin didnt establish the Pashtun identity of ghurids, even though he was familiar with Pashtuns/Afghans.

[Kushan Prince]

You would be surprised to hear that before 1878 , Kohlu, the stronghold of Marri balochs, was totally inhabited by Zarkun Afghans. Marris took the area with the help of Bugtis. The Kachchi or Dhadar area once was inhabited by Barozai Afghans but were expelled from there by Khan of Kalat in 18th century. Mastung is not a Baloch area, Dehwari (a dialect of Persian)and brahui is spoken there. Dera Ghazi Khan was stronghold and abode of Naghar Afghans but the area was taken over by Mirrani Balochs in 16th century.

The Pashtun tribes of Mastung have got bruhized, Rasianis, zarkhail, bungalzai etc are branches of tareen tribe. Also keep in mind, in these tribal societies, demographics have drastically changed within centuries due to tribal wars and subsequent displacements.

Balochs arrived in this region just few centuries ago from Mekran side, and from Iranian balochistan.

Pashtuns didn't even arrive in Quetta until the 10th century so how there have been presence of Pakhtuns past the north? All these Ghrughast and Sarbani Pashtun tribes living there came from around Afghanistan, they have not been living there since antiquity as you believe. Brahui and Baloch are both intercharbale terms, and they see each other as the same people. Seriously, there is no mention of Pashtuns living in mastung or karachi or that many baloch tribes were originally Pashtun. Pashtuns are a strong people, i don't think they would have easily accepted being conquered and accepting the culture of other people and letting them settle on their land. Some Balochi nationalists say the original name of Quetta was "Shal-e-Kot."

Balochs arrived in this region just few centuries ago from Mekran side, and from Iranian balochistan

This sentence is highly offensive to Balochis.