Pashtun Refrundum

[Elixir]

Tomorrow (if) there is a vote where all Pashtuns can decide if they wish to be part of Afghanistan or Pakistan, the vote is held in all Pashtun areas in both of those countries, which country do you think Pashtuns would vote for and why?

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

I believe both countries people will vote for their respective countries.

[tripledouble]

I disagree, in Pakistan there are many Pashtuns upset with the government. Thats why you have nationalist Pashtun Political Parties in Balochistan and KPK.

Although , I don't support "Pukhtunistan" for personal reasons and support Pakistan. I think the way forward for Pakistan is:
1) Less discrimination >>> includes giving Pashto equal status as Urdu in KPK and Pashtun parts of Balochistan. Making more Pashto universities. Anti-Racism campaigns such as against wrongful perception of Pashtuns (e.g. they are all gay, stupid etc). More government quotas.
2) Economic Grants and Subsidies to KPK and Balochistan.

Well the ANP has been voted out and PTI(a national party) now dominates KPK, only Balochistani-Pashtuns have voted for Pashtun nationalists, even then they're divided over secession.

Also i've noticed that the Pashtuns that live closer to the Punjab border are more pro-Pakistan and the ones closer to the Afghan border are more anti-Pakistan.

For example, people from Kohat,Mardan,DI Khan,Lakki Marwat,Bannu,Nowshera and Charsadda support Pakistan, whereas people from Swabi and FATA support Afghanistan; Swatis used to be anti-Pakistan but then after the operation in 2009 they've changed.

http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/20941/the-serendipitous-serenity-of-swat-valley/

There are some places in KPK where Pashtuns are a minority such as Hazara and Mansehra where the people are Hindkowans and Kohistanis, and Chitral and Kalash where the people speak a different langauge.

Hazara and Mansehra voted for PTI and before that PMLN, and Chitral voted for APML(Musharraf's party).

[kanishka]

I don't its about pro-Pakistan and anti-Pakistan. Rather economic. Most Paki Pashtuns are with the idea of Pakistan as it makes sense to them - better economy, relationships and well the fact that this area has be part of the British Raj so long that Afghanistan appears alien to them. Discontent is to do with rights abuses and economic discrimination; that why leftist nationalist parties exist and have support. Even the ANP and BNP are "pro-Pakistan" just anti discrimination now.The nationalists lost because of high corruption in KPK = they like all people with power were self-centred . Tehreek-i-Insaaf were voted in KPK due to this and there slogans of change/inqalab was fresh air similar to Obama's campaign. But Imran's government now isnt doing much for KPK. KPK is still poor, the polio crisis is just one manifestation and so is this fake drama he is doing over 4 seats now. In Pakistan as a whole one gov comes, steals and then the process is repeated again whether ANP, PPP, Tehreek-insaaf and even the army.
The way forward is for the people in power to be less self-centered/corrupt and do Nyaav (justice) for all people of Pakistan not just Pukhtuns and recognise equality for all e.g. preference to Pashto in Pashtun areas and Sairiki the same rather than Urdu.
Loy Pukhtunistan is unlikely to become a reality due to relative instability in Afghanistan and poor economy. But problems can occur, and the way forward is = less discrimination and economic growth !

1. Yes, it's all about money. Pashtuns in Pakistan are divided between social class. KPK Pashtuns are have more money and are therefore Pro Pakistani. Pashtuns in FATA are poor and therefore are willing to opt for ascension to Afghanistan if given the chance. Practically poor Pashtoons are the ones involved in Islamic Extremism while Rich Pashtuns do what upper class people do....

Most of the extremism in Pakistan happens among Pashtuns but keep in mind, Pashtuns are divided by social class, so middle-class Pashtuns are likely proud pakistanis and anti-Afghan.

2. Pakistan created the Taliban. Afghan Pashtuns are ****ed because Pakistan sent troops to Afghanistan to get rid of the soviets. At the time, Pashtuns had better lives durring USSR times, better than Pakistan due to Amannullah Khan and Daoud Khan's reforms. Daud Khan seeked to reclaim KPK but USA was quick to ally with Pakistan.

3.Afghan Pashtuns are divided by social class too. Abdali Pashtuns gained higher social status during the Durrani Empire, and many became Persianized among Tajiks. So victimized Afghan Pashtuns are non-Abdali, mostly Ghilzais i heard....

4. KPK Pashtuns historically did not cooperate with other Afghans, They sided with the Mughals and went againts Pir Roshanand Khushal Khan Khattak, who were Pakhtun nationalists. They were chiefly Yusufzais, Yusufzais are a prominent clan of KPK and many were granted free-land in India by Aurungzeb and a mass migration of them took place.KPK Yusufzais were part of Afghanistan for two centuries after joining Hotaki and Durrani empire and left when Sikhs took over, and eventually the English Durrand line.

[Elixir]

More opinions on this issue.

[Admin Khan]

I believe both countries people will vote for their respective countries.

The average Pashtun, doesn't give a damn about Pakistan or Afghanistan. Whichever country offers him the *best* is what he will choose, even if that is India. Let's be honest here. Pakistan kam da Pashtun plar oh nika dey? Pashtuns would leave to the West/USA, and vote for the West/USA, in a heart beat, if such is the case, because of the better life conditions and freedom.

When you live in poverty, national pride is the last thing that is on your mind. Most Pashtuns of Pakistan, in the USA, from my experience do not even associate themselves with Pakistan, the introduce themselves as Pashtun first. In fact, some introduce themselves as "historically part of India"; they avoid being associated with both Afghanistan and Pakistan, because of the negative connotations, and terrorist-esque stereotypes associated with the countries. Some get offended and respond that they are American. If tomorrow Afghanistan offers *better health care*, *better jobs*, *better opportunities*, *better education*, you will be the first one waiting for the next bus to Afghanistan, let's be real here. Blind patriotism and nationalism is a disease at best. Pakistanis/Afghans go to great desperate lengths to leave their countries, for a better life.

Man Pretending to be Romanian on UK Border Force (LOL) - YouTube


Best,

[HalloIsBack]

dont speak about all but most
foreigner who come to europe are living with their ethnic/national pride
dont accept the laws of the country
and keep mostly in touch with their people

[tripledouble]

The average Pashtun, doesn't give a damn about Pakistan or Afghanistan. Whichever country offers him the *best* is what he will choose, even if that is India. Let's be honest here. Pakistan kam da Pashtun plar oh nika dey? Pashtuns would leave to the West/USA, and vote for the West/USA, in a heart beat, if such is the case, because of the better life conditions and freedom.

When you live in poverty, national pride is the last thing that is on your mind. Most Pashtuns of Pakistan, in the USA, from my experience do not even associate themselves with Pakistan, the introduce themselves as Pashtun first. In fact, some introduce themselves as "historically part of India"; they avoid being associated with both Afghanistan and Pakistan, because of the negative connotations, and terrorist-esque stereotypes associated with the countries. Some get offended and respond that they are American. If tomorrow Afghanistan offers *better health care*, *better jobs*, *better opportunities*, *better education*, you will be the first one waiting for the next bus to Afghanistan, let's be real here. Blind patriotism and nationalism is a disease at best. Pakistanis/Afghans go to great desperate lengths to leave their countries, for a better life.

Man Pretending to be Romanian on UK Border Force (LOL) - YouTube


Best,

That's really true, but cultural identification also matters, and in recent years(and many decades ago too), Pashtuns have been marrying non-Pashtuns, so they're mixed heritage children in Pakistan wouldn't want vote for a Pukhtunistan, the same way in Afghanistan, Pashtuns have married into Tajiks and Uzbeks, so they're children would also voted against the division of Afghanistan; i believe in the future both Afghanistan and Pakistan would loose their diverisity and turn into respective nation-states.

So Afghaniyat would amalgamate Tajik,Pashtun,Nuristani,Hazara and other cultures and Pakistaniat would incorporate Punjabis,Pashtuns,Sindhis,Baltis , etc that's what historically has happened in Italy,France and Germany when those countries were really diverse and no such ethincity as Italian or German ever existed until less than 200 years ago.

Although this natural evolution of culture and identity could be subverted by the powers that be.

[Baraki]

What are you?: "I'm Afghan."

Where were you born?: "Pakistan."

Oh so you are a refugee?: "No, my mom is from Afghanistan and her father conducted business in Pakistan so she lived there and my dad is from Pakistan but he is Afghan too."

How is he Afghan if he is from Pakistan?: "He's an Ethnic Afghan, called Pashtun."

Was he originally from Afghanistan?: "Maybe.. but hes from the Afghan areas of Pakistan."

What the hell is that?: "like 15% of Pakistan is Afghan.. not refugees from Afghanistan but ETHNIC Afghan. The British split them away."

OK whatever I don't really get it.: "Don't worry, most don't."

My very common conversation with people^^^^^^

.. I prefer Afghan identity. If I lived in Pakhtunistan though who knows? Whichever country would provide better opportunities..

[kanishka]

That's really true, but cultural identification also matters, and in recent years(and many decades ago too), Pashtuns have been marrying non-Pashtuns, so they're mixed heritage children in Pakistan wouldn't want vote for a Pukhtunistan, the same way in Afghanistan, Pashtuns have married into Tajiks and Uzbeks, so they're children would also voted against the division of Afghanistan; i believe in the future both Afghanistan and Pakistan would loose their diverisity and turn into respective nation-states.

So Afghaniyat would amalgamate Tajik,Pashtun,Nuristani,Hazara and other cultures and Pakistaniat would incorporate Punjabis,Pashtuns,Sindhis,Baltis , etc that's what historically has happened in Italy,France and Germany when those countries were really diverse and no such ethincity as Italian or German ever existed until less than 200 years ago.

Although this natural evolution of culture and identity could be subverted by the powers that be.

France and Italy is true but Germans were always one race. Before Germany, Germans divided themselves into several kingdoms like Pashtuns divided into tribes. They had Holy ROman empire but that was only religious, how Pashtuns had Islamic empires. How Pashtuns have 1000 tribes, Germans had 1000 kingdoms when holy roman empire was not there but they were all Germans.... Germans are not a mix of other races, Germans are ... just Germans lol and have been that way for a while. The Netherlanders came from Franks and Scandinavia were their own races but Germany, they were just Germans how Pashtuns were jst Pashtuns. BOth people were backwards but i hope Pashtuns become educated and make one nation like German people did......

[HalloIsBack]

What are you?: "I'm Afghan."

Where were you born?: "Pakistan."

Oh so you are a refugee?: "No, my mom is from Afghanistan and her father conducted business in Pakistan so she lived there and my dad is from Pakistan but he is Afghan too."

How is he Afghan if he is from Pakistan?: "He's an Ethnic Afghan, called Pashtun."

Was he originally from Afghanistan?: "Maybe.. but hes from the Afghan areas of Pakistan."

What the hell is that?: "like 15% of Pakistan is Afghan.. not refugees from Afghanistan but ETHNIC Afghan. The British split them away."

OK whatever I don't really get it.: "Don't worry, most don't."

My very common conversation with people^^^^^^

.. I prefer Afghan identity. If I lived in Pakhtunistan though who knows? Whichever country would provide better opportunities..

i bet in asylum application you said something else

[tripledouble]

France and Italy is true but Germans were always one race. Before Germany, Germans divided themselves into several kingdoms like Pashtuns divided into tribes. They had Holy ROman empire but that was only religious, how Pashtuns had Islamic empires. How Pashtuns have 1000 tribes, Germans had 1000 kingdoms when holy roman empire was not there but they were all Germans.... Germans are not a mix of other races, Germans are ... just Germans lol and have been that way for a while. The Netherlanders came from Franks and Scandinavia were their own races but Germany, they were just Germans how Pashtuns were jst Pashtuns. BOth people were backwards but i hope Pashtuns become educated and make one nation like German people did......

Not quite, I've read elsewhere that other languages were also spoken in parts of modern day germany but that langauges were standardized.

Also Germans are not one people, because Austria is almost 100% German and the people their are ethnic Germans,speak the same langauge,follow the same culture but still have their own country, sames true for Switzerland, where German is the 2nd most spoken langauge, but Swiss-Germans do not want to join Germany, eventhough Switzerland is landlocked, so just because people speak one language,follow one culture doesn't mean they have to join one federation; that hardly happened in Germany and now we live in the 21st century where it's even more difficult, and cross-cultural interaction is increasing so cultures will all merge together to create something new, it's just natural evolution.

[tripledouble]

What are you?: "I'm Afghan."

Where were you born?: "Pakistan."

Oh so you are a refugee?: "No, my mom is from Afghanistan and her father conducted business in Pakistan so she lived there and my dad is from Pakistan but he is Afghan too."

How is he Afghan if he is from Pakistan?: "He's an Ethnic Afghan, called Pashtun."

Was he originally from Afghanistan?: "Maybe.. but hes from the Afghan areas of Pakistan."

What the hell is that?: "like 15% of Pakistan is Afghan.. not refugees from Afghanistan but ETHNIC Afghan. The British split them away."

OK whatever I don't really get it.: "Don't worry, most don't."

My very common conversation with people^^^^^^

.. I prefer Afghan identity. If I lived in Pakhtunistan though who knows? Whichever country would provide better opportunities..

Do you still believe Afghan is an ethnicity?
I spoke to a Pashtun girl who's from Afghanistan and she told me that Afghan is actually a national identity and that anybody born in Afghanistan whether Tajik,Pashtun,Uzbek,Hazara or Sikh is equally Afghan; so whether Afghan meant Pashtun 300 years ago means little to modern day Afghans; i think using a national term interchangeably with an ethnic term is confusing and is actually misinforming other people not from the region.

So if you don't like being called Pakistani, you should just call yourself Pashtun(instead of Afghan).

[Baraki]

Do you still believe Afghan is an ethnicity?
I spoke to a Pashtun girl who's from Afghanistan and she told me that Afghan is actually a national identity and that anybody born in Afghanistan whether Tajik,Pashtun,Uzbek,Hazara or Sikh is equally Afghan; so whether Afghan meant Pashtun 300 years ago means little to modern day Afghans; i think using a national term interchangeably with an ethnic term is confusing and is actually misinforming other people not from the region.

So if you don't like being called Pakistani, you should just call yourself Pashtun(instead of Afghan).

Regardless, my mother is from a village near Jalalabad. It is a rural area and only Pakhtuns are called Awghan/Afghan. And yes I still believe Afghan is an ethnic group, yep now it is a nationality too but we still disagree that East of the durrand line is Pakistan so that is another issue lol.

[Baraki]

i bet in asylum application you said something else

lol please expand on what you mean I have never been a refugee or asylum seeker.