pashtun etymology

[RevolutionThroughReason]

well he's still a reputed Pashto linguist and his works are academically cited. so it hasn't weakened him that much.

as for his method; I'm not a student of linguistics so I can't comment on that in depth, but none the less "SH" is established by the linguists. This I do know.

[Badlun]

Bakhtyar is pure Persian word from bakht-awar(one which brings good luck)
Here is a very good article tracing origin of Pashtun

Let us first discuss the origin of the names Pathan and Afghan. The term Pakhtun or Pashtun, according to Raverty, is derived from the Persian word 'Pusht' meaning 'back'. Since the tribes lived on the back of the mountains, Persians called them Pashtun which is also pronounced Pakhtun. Some scholars think that the word Pashtun or Pakhtun comes from the old Iranian words parsava parsa meaning robust men, knights. In Indian Ianguages it was spelt as Pakhtana or Pathan. Herodotus and several other Greek and Roman historians have mentioned a people called 'Paktye' living on the eastern frontier of Iran. By the word Paktye they meant the people of the frontier. (According to the Encyclopaedia of Islam the word Pathan is from the Sanskrit word Pratisthana). Muslim historians from Al-Biruni onward called them Afghans, never using the word Pathan which expression was extensively employed by the Hindus. "No Afghan or speaker of Pashtu ever referred to himself as a Pathan and the word is an Indian usage." (The Pathans, by Sir Olaf Caroe)


On this subject the views of the Russian scholar Yu V. Gankovsky are also interesting. He says: "My opinion is that the formation of the union of largely East-Iranian tribes which became the initial ethnic stratum of the Pashtun ethnogenesis dates from the middle of the first millennium AD and is connected with the dissolution of the Epthalite (White Huns) confederacy.

In the areas north of the Hindu Kush some of the tribes of this confederacy participated in the formation of the nationalities who inhabit Middle Asia today, and, among other tribes, in the formation of the Turkmen and Uzbek nationalities. This is attested, among other things, in the records of genonimy which indicate that among the Turkmen and Uzbeks (as well as among the Lokai) there occurs the ethnonym Abdal descending from the name of an Epthalite tribal union (Abdals, Abdel). South of the Hindu Kush, another part of the Epthalite tribes lost their privileged status as the military stronghold of the ruling dynasty and was ousted into the thinly peopled areas of the Sulaiman mountains, areas where there were not enough water supplies and grazing grounds. There they became a tribal union which formed the basis of the Pashtun ethnogenesis.

"Of the contribution of the Epthalites (White Huns) to the ethnogenesis of the Pashtuns we find evidence in the ethnonym of the largest of the Pashtun tribe unions, the Abdali (Durrani after 1747) associated with the ethnic name of the Epthalites -- Abdal. The Siah-posh, the Kafirs of the Hindu Kush, called all Pashtuns by a general name of Abdal still at sing of the 19th century.

History of Pashtuns

[Kushan Prince]

Let me sum this for people. Persians called us Pashtun and we called ourselves Pakhtun.

[Badlun]

Let me sum this for people. Persians called us Pashtun and we called ourselves Pakhtun.

Apart from the etymological reference of pusht in Persian this will be oversimplification and technically incorrect.

What I have heard is like this
Persian call us Afghan, Indians call us Pathan but we call ourselves Paxtun.

Actually pakhtun/pashtun=paxtun is one word. It is written with same letters in Pashto but pronounced differently because of a little phonemic or phonetic variation.

The difference is not of kh or sh but inbetween these two. Sharbat(syrup) is not pronounced like Pashtun and khar (donkey)is not pronounced like pakhtun. This difefrence is not only in pashtun/pakhtun but in many other words also like kha/sha=xa, khegarha/shegarha-xegarha etc

[khushal]

well he's still a reputed Pashto linguist and his works are academically cited. so it hasn't weakened him that much.

as for his method; I'm not a student of linguistics so I can't comment on that in depth, but none the less "SH" is established by the linguists. This I do know.

If you cant explain it then you have not read the book so in essence you do not know. this is called speculation. Your words are meaningless.

Where is @Yasmeena or @یاسمینه. Can you comment on this?

[یاسمینه]

If you cant explain it then you have not read the book so in essence you do not know. this is called speculation. Your words are meaningless.

Where is @Yasmeena or @یاسمینه. Can you comment on this?

[MENTION=1547]khushal[/MENTION], since my knowledge on phonology is limited, I would suggest Badlun to answer your question. He knows phonology:
http://www.pashtunforums.com/pashto-...htm#post707805

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I'm not speculating at all; I know it is an established fact that SHHH is the ancient dialect of Pashto I have read the book; but I am not a linguist so for me to explain the method, when the book deals with generalities of Pashto would be absurd. 'See this spiel of yours is simply born out of more ignorance you have about how this subject works.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Everytime I read a thread like this I loose interest in seriously participating in debates on PF because most members have never studied the topic they like to discuss.

Whats the point of having a discussion on a public forum when you have no clue what so ever about the topic?

Its like going to a sportsbar ordering a glass of mineral water and budding into discussions about the latest results and scores without ever watching a game or reading the results.

[Badlun]

none the less "SH" is established by the linguists. This I do know.

Yes there is no doubt that SH has been established by Linguists as a main feature of Soft dialect of Pashto. This SH vs KH and G vs J are the two main sound/phonemic differences between the two dialects of Pashto soft/southern and hard/northern.The difference is that there is a retroflex (sh) in the soft dialect, and a palatal fricative in the harsh dialect but these two are not distinctive letters in Pashto alphabet like SHIN and KHE in Arabic.

[Badlun]

Traces of the history of Pushto are present in its vocabulary. While the majority of words can be traced to Pushto's roots as member of the Eastern Iranian language branch, it has also borrowed words from adjacent languages for over two thousand years.

The oldest borrowed words are from Greek, and date from the Greek occupation of Bactria in third century BC. There are also a few traces of contact with Zoroastrians and Buddhists. Starting in the Islamic period, Pushto borrowed many words from Arabic and Persian. Due to its close geographic proximity to languages of the Indian sub-continent, Pushto has borrowed words from Indian languages for centuries.

History of Pushto language

[Kushan Prince]

Pashto hasn't borrowed from any indian languages. If your talking about Sanskrit, then that's an indo european language not indian. and alot of perisan words are actually of arabic origin.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Yes there is no doubt that SH has been established by Linguists as a main feature of Soft dialect of Pashto. This SH vs KH and G vs J are the two main sound/phonemic differences between the two dialects of Pashto soft/southern and hard/northern.The difference is that there is a retroflex (sh) in the soft dialect, and a palatal fricative in the harsh dialect but these two are not distinctive letters in Pashto alphabet like SHIN and KHE in Arabic.

Badlun .....even though its obvious that you have desperate and sadly inferiority complex driven motivation that colors your bias. Your attempt to take my statement out of context is not going to work in your favor . What I'm saying is that the Soft Southern Dialect is the original Pashto dialect .....meaning . Any allusions to ...Pakhta ...Pactyan ..Paktyune ...or any other variant probably has no relationship to Pashtuns; you have done what others have done errantly.

The reason we can't find any evidence in any Historical Account ...or any language records of Pashto of ANY FORM is MOSTLY LIKELY because ....IT SIMPLY DID NOT EXIST back then. Records or accounts of Pashto existing stem from the GHAZNAWID era ...NO OTHER HISTORICAL account of Pashto exists. ACTUAL WRITTEN PASHTO documents happened MUCH LATER; around the 15th Century and onward.

What all this means is that #1 Pashto is not that old #2 Pashto is simply derived from OTHER languages of the region that pre-date Pashto. Probably a variant of Yaghnobi/Soghdian etc etc. These people DID EXIST back in ancient times and records of their languages are found in places Pashtuns currently inhabit. However just because their languages could have EVENTUALLY became transformed into Pashto, doesn't mean THOSE people were Pashtuns, those people are the "ancestors" of modern Pashtuns. JUst like just because HUmans Migrated from Africa doesn't make modern humans Africans.

Pashtuns according to ALL AVAILABLE evidence are not more than 1000 years old. We're derived from numerous ethnicities of People, some of them Soghdian, some of them Scythian, some of them Khwarzemi some of them Hephtalite, some of us are even originally of Turkic speaking Origins. Like us Ghilzais are. Whatever the case, those people were not Pashtuns and didn't identify as such, maybe their descendants did, but not these people.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

.

The oldest borrowed words are [COLOR=Red]from Greek, and date from the Greek occupation of Bactria in third century BC.

Which only proves that traces of Other ancient languages exists in Pashto ....not that Pashto was spoken back the THink Logically Badun ....remember educated people are Logical


Think of it this way ... Proto-Indo-European ----> Avestan/Scythian----> Soghidian ----> Yaghnobi-----> Pashto

[ډګروال]

what a bunch of self proclaimed experts.

[Badlun]

RTR
Who the hell are you that I will refer to your statement for feeling myself superior or whatever. You never give any reference to any of your statements and are suffering from superiority complex. You are just one more zero claiming things on your own and then think that the whole world must agree with that.

Your complex is that to try to prove the other wrong even if if the other says 2+2=4. You will find many holes in this to prove you are something superior. Except in pushing Pashtuns in ignorance you will never agree with anyone in nay thing.

You yourself have stated the same fact that your job is to prove the other one wrong and to show them their place. If you were a rational person then you would be an activist of development, science, rationalism, liberalism, democarcy ,secularism which is the common path of all enlightened and rational people but you want Pashtuns to be pushed further in the darkness of ignorance, backwardness and poverty by following 1400 years old system which is not applicable anywhere in the world.

You are the worst enemy of Pashtuns I have ever seen. You hate Pashtunwali, you make Pashtuns and Pashto to be limited to few hundreds years and deprive them of their thousands of years of history before Islam.

Your saying that Soft Southern Dialect is the original Pashto dialect is not enough. Prove it with evidence.

Prove it that any allusions to ...Pakhta ...Pactyan ..Paktyune ...or any other variant probably has no relationship to Pashtuns;

Prove it dont just say it that we have done errantly. You are not God to send a Quran and that becomes truth. We have givene many references. You give few for your claim.

Writingof a langauge is one thing and its existence another thing. You know Gujari langauge spoken by hundreds of thousands of Gujjars even today does not have a single standard book or newspaper in pure Gujri alphabet. Do you think that no existence of writing in Gujri and many other small languages like in Africa etc even today means these langauges do not exist?

Pashtuns were nomadic people. There was no literacy so how they could write and read? Even Arabs did not have books before Quran except few poetry selections. You think Arabs came into being after Quran?

Pashto has borrowed words from many langauges but do you think each and every word of all these millions of words are derived from other languages? No . Majority of the words of Pashto are its own with some borrowed words. Do you think Yaghnobi or Soghdian are more important languages than Pashto for being more pure . No. Pashto is today spoken by more than 60 millions of people and is official and national language of a state.
Are you honest with your own self that 60 millions of Pashtuns with so many similarities, one language, culture etc just evolved in 1000 years? Do you have any other similar case that one ethnic group or race OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE evolved just in 1000 years?

You are a big fool. After such assessments you have I have lost all respect for you. You are the most irrational, illogical , prejudiced and biased person on this site. You are the worst enemy of Pashtuns. I will identify you from now onwards although I always try and will still try not to engage in personal discussions with any one.