Pakhtun, afghan & pathan

[khyaal]

Similary Persians preferred to change their centuries old name from Persia to Iran but they are still persian people. So what would be the advantage if we change they chage their name from Afghans to Pashtuns except proving to the world that they are basically an ethnocentric nation with no regard for other communities while these communities already have assimilated themselves in greater afghan identity and enjoy more freedom than the millions of Pashtun Population in Pakistan?

[Son of Mountains]

I m worried if this word Pathan came into existence for Qais Abdul Rasheed RA from Hazrat Muhammad PBUH as Batan/Bathan. But you nationalists are..........................

[ijaz yousafzai]

Ijaz saib! It is all about politics now and this purely academic discussion is of no use. And your apprehension about dari speaking as well as majority of pashtuns would be right and they won't agree with you becuase you are digging issues (which he have already heard numerous times) which could harm pashtun/afghans more than giving them any benefit.

Digging such issues for most is like re-inventing the wheel. We all know that the word Hindu originated from the word Sindu which means river generically but now we identify the former word. So this change of name for India to Sindia will bring them nothing though this could assert someone's intellectual prowess.

It is heartening that you are a very knowledgable person and know every thing. But strangely you are taking the discussion to the negati ve side. One should harbour a habit of calling a spade a spade and should not be comfortable to sweep under the carpet.
I have discussed the historical background and chronological status of the THREE names used for the same people, the two given by the neighbors, whereas One ( Afghan) has been hijacked and is being used under political expediency for people who are not Afghan/ Pashtun.They still use the phrase " Afghani na mee danam", showing that they still hold the Pakhtuns as Afghans, but the ruling elite and some " knowledgable people" are bent upon to contradict the histroy.

[Nick]

he historical truth reveals beyond any doubt that these people carried the aboriginal name of “Pakhtun” (or ‘Pashtun’ in the soft variant of their language), but was, later, called by different names by other races, which fate brought close to them in the course of history. They were called Avghans by the Armenians, Afghans by the Persians, Sulemanis by the Arabs, and Pathans by the Indians but they themselves prefer to be called Pakhtuns/Pashtuns.

“The appellation of “Pakhtun/Pashtun” is much older than the “Afghan”, recalls Habibullah Tagai in his booklet, “Pukhtana” and adds that the great Greek historian Herodotus has described Pakhtana as Paktuese and their country as Paktuike, Paktika or Paktikha (Pakhtunkhwa) in 400 BC”.

Wrong Its the other way around. The Word Afghan is much older then the Greek Source which only applies to the same place as today's Pakhtia. It was actually pronounced "Pakhthian" the only tribe or province that has agreed to fight and support infamous Cyrus. Habibullah's notion of nationalism cannot over come facts. There were many regions that was mention along side with Pakthian, (It Latin spelled as Pactyian), such as Zaranagana (Zaranj) which was known to Cyrus as "Daranagana", Another famous one was "Pakhtria" spelled in Latin as "Bactrian" in modern Balkh/Kundoz/Takhar, another name Aria was also mention as to be modern Herat/Farah. You can't just take one tribe Pactyan from one province Arachosia and assume all Afghan/Pakhtuns can be traced to this one tribe. What about Zariaspa, Aoronos, Drapsaka, Paropamisus, Artacoana, Prophtazia, Arachotas, Ariaspe, Nikia, Cophenes, Assakani, Apridas, Asposia etc etc all of them tribes or locations of these names are inside Aria, Arachosia, and Pakhtria Notice I did not mentioned Gedrosia because its modern Balochistan. However we have so many tribes that still be traced back as far as 450 BCE. LOL Just taking Pactyan into consideration simply because it sound like Pakhtun doesn't mean Pactyan was driven from "Pakhtun" and assume the rest of Afghanistan was not Afghan, and only one city or one tribe.

“We find the description of “Pakht” in the Vedic scriptures of 1500 BC, which is regarded by almost all the orientalists and anthropologists a root, from which the name, “Pakhtun” stems out.

Yes Pakhtria is Vedic name originally in Red Vidas it was mentioned as Pakhtria,

Another Afghan intellectual Mohammad Masoom Hotak also believes that the “Pakht” of Rigveda and the “Paktues” of Herodotus are undeniably the “Pakhtuns/Pashtuns” of today, who were called Afghans and Pathans by alien nations, but who call themselves “Pukhtana” and their language as “Pakhto or Pashto”.

Herodotus in 3:102 also mentions that Pactyans dresses and are costumed like Bactrians and fight along Cyrus, needless to say Arachosia was sometimes counted as part of Pakhtria, therefore it makes sense that Pakhtria and Pactyans are related.

It happened so in the course of the times that tas Pakhtuns generally inhabited the mountainous terrains and highlands and as the “dwellers of the mountain” were called “Avghans” in the Armenian language and hence by the position of their abode, the Pakhtuns/Pashtuns were called by their Armenian neighbors as “Avghans”, later converted to “Afghans” by the Persians.

Well the root of the name Afghan is not driven from Armenian. However Armenians were influenced by Afghans, in fact in Armenia a group of Afghan tribes who sided with Cyrus, settled in Armenia, "The Mesoch-Mushkians, the Outians and the Pactians were also among the inhabitants of the Armenian plateau, each having its own language or dialect, and particular kind of social life and culture. They were all eventually assimilated with the Armens, adding their numbers to the larger elements from the Khaldi and the Hittites." A History of Armenia by Vahan M. Kurkjian page 58
Therefore in Armenia you will find Afghan given names specially in Armenian community of Grozen (Georgia) a town is still bears the name Yelia Afghan actually spelled as Avagan and sometimes Avakan, also many Armenians have a last name "Aghvan" LOL despite all this is what an Armenian site says "

AGHVAN:

Is a new name in Armenia, it came in use at the beginning of the previous century, especially in Shirak region under the impression of ''Aghvan's and Osan's Tale'' by Hovsep Aslanyan (1900).It has no connection with the nation called Aghvan" AGHVAN - Armenian Names - Male






To Conclude this I can name many Caucasian places which during Medians era was influenced by Afghan Sakas (Ossetians), and during Archeamanids by Kandaharis (Croatians), such as Bulgrians (Pakhtrians) Perhabs in Armenian it may have taken a meaning of the word Mountaineers.

Kerarson, and Trump, the renowned orientalists and historiographers also confirm that these were the Persians who gave the name of “Afghans” to the Pakhtuns.

Wrong Persians have adapted the word which often represented "trouble" to them. Just like how we have adapted the word "Chi" meaning Tea which actually is Chinese "Jai". But in back home people assume the word Cai is native LOl its not in the same matter Persians have adapted the word "AOvighan" into their Farsi dictionary, which actually has supports from New Parthian Language it turns itself into Ah-Oh_Vi-Gan I don't think I need to explain this because they hard time keeping control of Aria, Bactria and

Persians did not gave us the name Afghan. Order then Persians was mentioned in Afgan has been traced to Yajurveda, and Samaveda. Also a great pages of contribution by Pannai in 500 BCe which means before or during rise of Persian Archeamanids. He has in details mentions tribes, conflict between tribes as well as 29 cities/towns which were named to be located from Palavi (Merv)up to his own city Aottak. Needless to say Gathas also mentions a word "argyana" but I assume this means Aryana or perhaps a location that only bears the name "Arghandab" I personally don't believe Argyan means Afghan but hey you would never know what gathas meant by summing the Ancient locations.

Prof. Emeritus AH Dani maintains that Herodotus explicitly giving the portrayal of the Pakhtuns mentioned, “The Paktues wore cloaks of skin and carried the bow of their country and the dagger”. The Persian suzerain Darius commanded his general Skylax to find out where the river Indus emptied itself into the Sea. According to the Father of the History, Herodotus, “he started from the city of “Kaspaturos” and the country of “Paktuike”. Dr. AH Dani further elaborates, “The word Afghan, Avghan or Abagan, which is found in all the Muslim accounts, has been traced only to the Sassanian inscription of the3rd century AD, and more clearly to Varahamihra’s Brihatsamhita of the 6th century.

Even a Chinese Mong was not stupid enough to be mistake when he land to conclude land from southern Mergina up to Indus as Apokhins. So Let alone Pro Emeritus. I think I have made my point.


Some people here are just looking to see if Pakhtuns were mentioned in Quran, I am not joking but some-one has actually question regarding the connection of the Pakhtuns or afghans with Quran LOL I told him study Quran himself LOL. Pakhtun this and Pakhtun that for gods' sake Raman Baba was born during the heights of nationalism so damn right hes gonna take pride from his language. The fact that people don't know what Pashtun or Pakhtun means, is no-bodies fault. But its answer lays over the combination of words. Pakht-un or Pasht-un I was told that Pasht means past, and oon or -un sort form of Wan or Wanna to speak in order word Past or Ancient speakers. I am not sure but my grandfather was a professor of Dari literature in Kabul and according to him Pashtuwan=Pashtun is a linguistic group, and that Pakhtun comes from the notion of hardcore Pashtu, with a minor difference in dialects ie Kha and Sha,, the hardcore of Pashtu is to be called Pakhtu and this dialect is older than modern Pashtu and its mainly spoken in the Northern and Eastern Afghan Zamin, where as soft version is called Pashtu, or Kandahari is mainly spoken in the south and Western Afghan Zamin.

[ijaz yousafzai]

Thank you. However if you carefully go through the text of my post, you will find most of your replies. My every next quote has satisfied your observations. If you can, you should come up with supported arguements to falsify my caim of " Pakhtun" being an ancient nomenclature than the "Afghan", which got popularized in Persians patronage.

[ijaz yousafzai]

Nick isn't the word Afghan a term given to us by Iranians for Pashtuns only.

And that's the reason why Tajiks don't want to be called afghan cause Afghan literally means Pashtun.

That is true. However now the term "Afghan" has been generalized and extended to all the citizens of Afghanistan for political reasons. This is like disrobing the Pakhtuns of their historical identity.

[Nick]

Thank you. However if you carefully go through the text of my post, you will find most of your replies. My every next quote has satisfied your observations. If you can, you should come up with supported arguements to falsify my caim of " Pakhtun" being an ancient nomenclature than the "Afghan", which got popularized in Persians patronage.

From historical prospective Pactyan all of the other names I mentioned were all inside modern Afghan-Land, was either locations/tribes, Pakhtun try to use this as their solo identity. However Pashtun or Pakhtun has been only living word amongst its speakers that generalizes who of its speakers since 14th century. But the word Afghan goes beyond history and it has been applied as an Qwami or Racial identity of many other tribes for at least 5000 years.
My Supporting argument has been presented in the above post where I reflected on the false claim of the "Armenian" application. Because the tribes who lived in Armenia has presented themselves as "Afghan" and it was the Pactyan tribes. If you want I can post further texts of the Book. Otherwise you should not trust wikipedia. Also Herodotus history account was made in 450 BCE, but the Pactyans in Armenia was dated to be 550 BCE, also a long list of detailed account of Panani is 500 BCE, the Persian account account is 260 AD but Gathas is 1200 BCE, at 1200 BCE Yajurveda is comparable. Therefore your Persian case is irrelevant to the fact that word Afghan is why much older and beyond a single tribe. The Pactyans, and Apradias etc etc of Herodotus is still alive as to applied to Pakhtiwal and Afridis etc etc.

[eyeliner]

Afghan was the word given by persians, persian isn't necessarily iranian because other ethnicities reside their. Persian includes tajiks aswell.

[khyaal]

I have discussed the historical background and chronological status of the THREE names used for the same people, the two given by the neighbors, whereas One ( Afghan) has been hijacked and is being used under political expediency for people who are not Afghan/ Pashtun.They still use the phrase " Afghani na mee danam", showing that they still hold the Pakhtuns as Afghans, but the ruling elite and some " knowledgable people" are bent upon to contradict the histroy.

When the state of Afghanistan was founded the word afghan essentially meant Pashtuns. But what title/name, in your opinion, should have been given to the non pashto speaking communities living inside afghanistan?

Could you, please, cite any other country which follows a different traditions than that practiced in afghanistan as regards this issue? For example if you become a permanent citizen of France, Germany, Spain etc. won't you be officially regarded as French, German or Spanish? Why should afghanistan be any different in this respect?

[khyaal]

whereas One ( Afghan) has been hijacked and is being used under political expediency for people who are not Afghan/ Pashtun..

What you call as political expediency is in fact a political necessity for any state to be internally stable, and we have never seen any country which deliberately polarizes its own society by prohibiting other communities from using its official name. Politically this would be the most ridiculous thing.

[Nick]

Afghan was the word given by persians, persian isn't necessarily iranian because other ethnicities reside their. Persian includes tajiks aswell.

Afghan was the word given by persians

False Propaganda.

persian isn't necessarily iranian because other ethnicities reside their

Persian is a linguistic term due to their unique dialect, history, culture, as well as their tradition which is heavily influenced by Shiaism they can be defined as pure Iranian. Historically aside from Turko-Mongolian influence Iran, and also further Eastern Borders, After conquest of Alexander's Era Persian never practiced tribalism. Therefore its hard to define them with common blood line like the Afghan tribal society, which according to BBC covers 70% of the population.

Persian includes tajiks aswell

From Iranian prospective:
Believe me when I say this, because I have aside from Reading knowledge I also have personal knowledge of local Iranian mindset, my cousins used to live in Iran and I too visited Eastern Iran, generally from American-Iranian prospective its very abusive, however from local Iranian prospective People think Afghan=Chinese looking and Tajik= Mixed Persian.

From Tajik prospective:
Living in Tajikistan, the People are nice at the same time many like the 30% of Afghanistan's Farsiwan population have Identity crisis, the Tajiks of Tajikistan careless about religion would rather wanted to be affiliated with Iranians rather then their own Race which is "Turkic".



From Farsiwan Prospective Ok Lets say the way Westerners say it from Afghanistan's Tajik prospect:
In side Farsiwan community there is also a "Qawm wa Qawm Bazi" Which means that Tribal or Qwami aspect of living is still widely respected as it is in modern Pashtun prospective but lets softer and hardcore. The country side uneducated Farsiwans from Afghanistan will be very abused and disappointed if you call them Tajik, because today "Tajiks" means bazigar, and as many have witness era of 1980s and still Videos available for them "Tajik Khana" meant brothel house where foreign girls from Tajikistan were brought to ease new and modern Afghan communist students. Which means visible to the community, as well as many concerts showing their dance and tradition in Afghan TV have spoiled the identity "Tajik". Therefore those Farsiwan who didn't knew what Tajik meant came to conclusion that Tajiks means "Others".

Like the Pashtuwan or Pashtuns those Farsiwan of 1970s and 1980s studied in Kabul under communism umbrella also fell under Russian influence came to accept "Tajik" identity, coping from Pashtun nationalism even a party was organized in the communist era was known as Setami Millat, opposition to Afghan Millat. At the beginning it got a fame and million people joined the party, however when Karmal came to power, prostitution, drugs, alcohol came to be a new symbol resulted in Farsiwans noticing that Badakhshi the parties founder was leading an scheme worse that he was an Ismaili. By End of Karmal was marked as end of Setami Mellat. The Other reason why this party did not reached outside Kabul was because many of them Farsiwans in old days as our Fathers and grandfathers said, no-one knew what the heck this word Tajik meant until Communist books reaching 1950s and 1960s.


However in old days if you call them "Persian" they will be confused and they will correct you with the word "Farsi".

However from a Farsiwan who as been abroad will again understand that regardless what we do, we are not going to take our time to explain you in detail, but for sure we will let you know that we are Afghan. Due to spoiled nature of the word "Tajik" we are going to tell you if either we are Sayed, Khuawja or Sidiqi, or our tribal affiliated last-names. Needless to say but due to religious conflicts with true Persians, its very abusive for any Farsiwan to accept the term Persian. However Persian was coined in 1960s regarding demography of Afghanistan from Western sources where as Russian sources call us "Tajiks". Therefore not to be associated with anything to do with Iran we have rather have to be stuck with the term "Tajik" that applies to Turkic Persians rather than "Persian"



From my personal view: Comparing the two words.

People like me who have seen faces as well as their friendly and loving attitude, will conclude that no-way them Tajiks are same as us "Tajiks".

Because what I saw in my many years in Tajikistan was both Shocking and surprising, and what I thought of Iran, I would rather be associated with the word "Persian". Because the Tajiks are only Muslim by name and in their weddings, Eids, as well as nowroz or any sort of celebration they have to have Wine. Second in the Streets Prostitution is allowed although Government of Tajikistan hides this but sex price is same as one glass of water. From whole population maybe 10% of them pray and that also is done only on Fridays.
3rd their culture is so mixed as to be same as Uzbek, I still don't get how Russia was successful in separating them, from Uzbekistan since they look same, act same, just talk different. Speaking of "Talk" their language is also heavily influenced by Uzbeki words, which is why their Language "Tajiki" is special to them only. 4th from their cultural and treditional aspect they share nothing with us Farsiwan or Afghanistan's Tajik. They dress different, their wedding and ceremonies are different, as well as their local believes and open minded towards such subjects as "Girls" which is why Russians nicknamed their society as open-minded Sex industry.


Therefore I am not racist against them simply because 80% of them look like our Uzbeks or Hazaras, oh no, I love their Asianic looks, but rather their whole society and non-Islamic elements have made me agree that i would rather wanted to be associated with Iran and be labeled as "Persian".

[ijaz yousafzai]

When the state of Afghanistan was founded the word afghan essentially meant Pashtuns. But what title/name, in your opinion, should have been given to the non pashto speaking communities living inside afghanistan?

Could you, please, cite any other country which follows a different traditions than that practiced in afghanistan as regards this issue? For example if you become a permanent citizen of France, Germany, Spain etc. won't you be officially regarded as French, German or Spanish? Why should afghanistan be any different in this respect?

Pashtun of Afghanistan should have been called " Afghan" being their historical name and non-pakhtuns as " Afghani" on the pattern of " Irani" of Iran , " Pakistani" of pakistan, Iraqi of Iraq etc. France, Germany etc are modern Nation-States, which are not good examples to plead your point. Arab is a nation,hence an Egyptian,Iraqi and Saudi are Arab but not all Arabs are Egyptian or,Iraq ior Saudi. A Pakhtun citizen of Dubai can not be called an Arab.

[ijaz yousafzai]

What you call as political expediency is in fact a political necessity for any state to be internally stable, and we have never seen any country which deliberately polarizes its own society by prohibiting other communities from using its official name. Politically this would be the most ridiculous thing.

With the same logic, the " Centralist Pakistani" advocate assimilation of a " Pakistani Nation" from different nations residing in Pakistan. Will you approve the same argument for Pakhtuns to dissolve in " Pakistani Nation".
I am a Pakhtun/ Afghan residing in Peshawar. I am not an Afghani but Afghan. Similarly a Tajik of Afghanistan is an Afghani but not an Afghan. This is the viable correction to the appellation " Afghan", which has been incorrectly adopted in Afghanistan. I am skeptical of extending the name of " Afghan" to all the citizens of Afghanistan, which originally meant " Pakhtuns". How you will fit me in the definition being a Pakhtun but not the citizen of Afghanistan, like an Arab is not necessarily an " Egyptian" . Why Afghan Constitution has made me a scapegoat for Tajiks, Uzbeks etc and has deprived me of my historical name.

[khyaal]

Pashtun of Afghanistan should have been called " Afghan" being their historical name and non-pakhtuns as " Afghani" on the pattern of " Irani" of Iran , " Pakistani" of pakistan, Iraqi of Iraq etc.

Actually your crticism is more about a suggestion to change the Pashto linguistic rules. I will give you some parallel examples where the nations existed first and the states were created later like, from Uzbeks is Uzbekistan, from Tajik( though initially a derogatroy label) Tajikistan, and Turkman Turkmanistan. Every citizen of these nations are officially regarded as Uzbek, Tajik and Turkman in their respective countries. But anyway why should we be so concerned about naming rules? If an ethnicity has politically dominant role as you assume then how could the naming rule could curtail its political role?

France, Germany etc are modern Nation-States, which are not good examples to plead your point.

France existed before the creation of Afghanistan.

Arab is a nation,hence an Egyptian,Iraqi and Saudi are Arab but not all Arabs are Egyptian or,Iraq ior Saudi.

Actully again you falsified your own argument. Iraq, Egypt and Saudi were regions or you may call provinces of the Arab empire which (as you yourself have asserted). So your argument should have been the other way round, that is, every egyptian, Iraqi or Saudi shouldn't have been an Arab though they were part of the same empire.

A Pakhtun citizen of Dubai can not be called an Arab.

I doubt that even an arab who is not the official citizen of Dubai will be regarded as Emiratian. Perhaps you confused too many different things. Since the arab terminology, I think is not an official one, therefore only the country label is used in these countries for identification just like in Afghanistan.

[PakistaniWazir]

You guys are so illogical

the word afghan means tajiki hazara turkmen and pashtun

how can you just say afghan means pashtun when you accept others under this name

Pashtun should be pashtun bas!

che kala za afghanistan kasa, first thing comes into my mind is farsi

why is this?