Moghul in Afghanistan

[Toramana]

Exactly, he also killed so many people in India, only people like catya sher can worship him.

Yes---I agree. Foreigners have no rights to subjugate native people.

[Toramana]

Here is something about Bibi Mubaraka marriage to Babur.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=B8NJ41GiXvsC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=bibi+mubarika+yusufzay&source=bl&ots=HurUFScg-X&sig=P8a7LbtgBbtPBFMhvZOR04xNsXw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Q1ADUIuxFojI6wGoy63YBg&ved=0CFAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=bibi%20mubarika%20yusufzay&f=false

[faye]

The most successful governors of Hindustan WERE the Muslims, by the way.

Look how it deteriorated drastically under the British, Nehru, Indira Gandhi,
all subsequent figures.

Moghul rulers never physically persecuted Hindus or Christians living in their territories.
But the persecution BY fanatical Hindus of modern Catholics is
a much-suppressed news story so that Catholics around the world
will be against Muslims, rather than against Hindus.

Think about the difference between a benign Moghul rule of
the subcontinent and the modern day disaster created by
secular Hindus. And others.

from what i have been reading, india was quite fine before being invaded by muslims and then the british. the slaughters, rapes, thieving and oppression by the muslims and the british were crimes against humanity and solely for the looting of indias wealth, land and the use of indians as slaves.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I don't know, may be. The rulers at that time usually did this thing.

But as for I have studied history, he first tried to subdue Yousafzais probably the most turbulent Pashtun tribe at that time. But failing he asked Bibi Mubaraks daughter of Malak Shah Mansur hand in marriage. It was kind of a political marriage to win over powerful Yousafzais to his side. Malak Shah Mansur accepted. So I think it was a proper marriage with nikah and not kind of rape.

It's in Baburnama . he mentions something about that. In it he says she went to beg him for mercy against the Yusufzais and then he ripped off her veil.

[Karachi]

mughals were defiantly not good muslims, but then again who was? other then the earliest muslims

anyways the only thing I appreciate about them is their architecture and the influence on food they had in India

[torkham]

Seems like I have to read the Bubrnameh.

And if indeed Babur pillaged crop and cattle from Momand and Kunar regions, and ravaged Yusufzai lady and dreaming of Kabul, going by Tormana and The Rev's accounts, he deserves to be reinterred and restored to his initial burial site! The chutzpah of this man!!

[RevolutionThroughReason]

here is the exact quote, perhaps I misrepresented it, but the way he openly discloses this is disgraceful.

http://www.farlang.com/diamonds/beveridge-baburnama/page_971

A second time he said, "Afghaniya, be seated." Again she prostrated herself before him and came a little nearer, but still stood. Then the Padshah pulled the veil from her face and beheld incomparable beauty. He was entranced, he said again, " O, Afghaniya, sit down." Then she bowed herself again, and said, " I have a petition to make. If an order be given, I will make it." The Padshah said kindly, " Speak." Whereupon she with both hands took up her dress and said, "Think that the whole Yusuf-zal tribe is enfolded in my skirt, and pardon their offences for my sake." Said the Padshah, " I forgive the Yusuf-zal all their offences in thy presence, and cast them all into thy skirt. Hereafter I shall have no ill-feeling to the Yusuf-zal." Again she bowed before him-; the Padshah took her hand and led her to the divan.

When the Afternoon Prayer time came and the Padshah rose from the divan to go to prayers, Blbl Mubaraka jumped up and fetched him his shoes.1 He put them on and said very pleasantly, " I am extremely pleased with you and your tribe and I have pardoned them all for your sake." Then he said with a smile, " We know it was Malik Ahmad taught you all these ways." He then went to prayers and the Blbl remained to say hers in the tent.
After some days the camp moved from Dlarun and proceeded by Bajaur and Tank! to Kabul.2

Blbl Mubaraka, the Blessed Lady, is often mentioned by Gul-badan ; she had no children ; and lived an honoured life, as her chronicler says, until the beginning of Akbar's reign, when she died. Her brother Mir Jamal rose to honour under Babur, Humayun and Akbar.

I'm not sure what to make of this

[torkham]

here is the exact quote, perhaps I misrepresented it, but the way he openly discloses this is disgraceful.

http://www.farlang.com/diamonds/beveridge-baburnama/page_971

I'm not sure what to make of this

Thanks

She is presented before the padshah, and clearly after removing her veil the padshah is so impressed by the lady's beauty, he flirts, she exchanges political references, and then takes her to his tent.

So bibi gul-badan offered her self to have her people pardoned. And padshah engaged her, and proceeded to Kabul.

I realize almost every ruler has abused power, but having read this, I am not one to forget this act of the moghul. Thanks Rev.

[abassinafghan]

Da Afghan pa nang me watarala tura,
Nangyalai da zamanay Khushal Khattak yam


this words are actual like they were hundreds of years before .

we need another kushal baba , who will take his sword against our enemies for the sake of our honour .

[asad71]

Right about Babur's famed love for Kabul, which he wrote about
at length in his Memoirs as LIKE a paradise.

But the actual quotation is from one of Shah Jahan's buildings
in Delhi. I have to remember WHICH one, but I think the Fort, probably.

The language is Persian, I am sure, as that was the court language
of the Moghuls.

As a matter of fact, my own family had a plaque with this inscription
by our front door when I was growing up....brought from the former
Moghul domain of Hindustan. I wish it would go back to Muslim Rule,
and SOON !

The most successful governors of Hindustan WERE the Muslims, by the way.

Look how it deteriorated drastically under the British, Nehru, Indira Gandhi,
all subsequent figures.

Moghul rulers never physically persecuted Hindus or Christians living in their territories.
But the persecution BY fanatical Hindus of modern Catholics is
a much-suppressed news story so that Catholics around the world
will be against Muslims, rather than against Hindus.

Think about the difference between a benign Moghul rule of
the subcontinent and the modern day disaster created by
secular Hindus. And others.

1.This is engraved on the Diwan e Khas in the Red Fort, Delhi. Built by Emperor Shahjahan the entire capital complex was then called Shajahanabad.

2. Throughout Northern Hindustan covering the entire Indus and Gangetic valleys are innumerable beautiful gardens, palaces, forts, edifices and mosques which speak of the taste of the Central/West Asian rulers and the craftsmanship of the workers/engineers they had brought from home. It is amazing that there is hardly anything indigenous visible that could come anywhere near in class. Also we should remember that what is available today is only a part / remnant because the English Co marauders had in 1957-58 began destroying anything Muslim - till the Chief of Archaeological Deptt of the Company could convince the Gov General to intervene.

[Khostai]

I still don't understand why he said Kabul is like paradise... Its not that beautiful even in the old pictures it looks nothing special... or its just me

[Toramana]

My post was mainly in response to that lady's post---I think no set of people has the right to impose itself on another set of people in the name of benevolence or more efficient governance until the second set of people wants it. No one willingly likes to play second fiddle no matter how benignly treated.

While Babur did make plundering raids into Pashtun areas that he mentions in his memories, there is one comment to be made. Momand (a part of Ghorya Khel or Ghori tribal confederacy that included Mullah Goris, Shinwaris, Safis, Daudzais, etc.) at that time were at Muqar, Ghazni and probably were in the process of moving up north following into the footsteps of Khakhi Khel or Khakhis (Yousafzais, Mohammadzais, Jadun, Uthman Khel, Tarklanis, Gigyanis, etc.). But Babar raided Momands as well in Muqar, as he mentions it in his Tuzak. In fact, that is one important piece of information about Momand's location at that time (1500-1520).

Babur also mentions Indians in contemptuous terms.

Having said this, let us also appreciate Babur for his honesty/candidness ---the way he talks about his indulgence into opium, drinking, homosexual tendencies, etc. Moreover, his "Tuzak" are a source of information about the geography, demographic situation, etc. of our areas during the late medieval ages of the region. Mughals were also efficient administrators and must be admired for their architectural and artistic tastes/work.

Also, we should note that Pashtuns were not any better than Babur when did they get the chance.

[Toramana]

here is the exact quote, perhaps I misrepresented it, but the way he openly discloses this is disgraceful.

http://www.farlang.com/diamonds/beveridge-baburnama/page_971

I'm not sure what to make of this

I think that is the Mughal description of the event. In order to have a balanced view of the Yousafzais dealings with Mughals, one should know Yousafzais account as well. A good source is "Tawarikh-i-Hafiz Rahmat Khani" a history of Khakhi Khel as they migrated from Kandahar (Ghora Margha) and settled in Swat (displacing Swatis and Dalazaks the Karlani Pashtun tribes).

It sounds to me that Babar was not able to subdue Yousafzais as evidenced by later wars between Pashtuns and Mughals --- Many Mughal armies were destroyed in Yousafzais mountains (Bairbal one of the courtiers of Akbar was killed while commanding an army into Yousafzais areas). So rebellious were Yousafzais that Akbar had to construct the Attok fort in order to check them. Yousafzais also were part of Pir-i-Rokhan Ba-yzid Ansari and his progeny Jalala's and Kamala's struggle whose war of resistance against Mughals lasted for almost a 100 years.

The enmity between Mughals and Pashtun was deep-rooted and had many causes ---the enmity between Alagh Baig, ruler of Kabul, and uncle of Babur, and Yousafzais , defeat of Ibrahim Lhodhi [a Pashtuns] at the hands of Babur [with the help of mostly Zamand Pashtuns), later the defeat of Hamayun at the hands of Sher Shah Suri (a Pashtuns), the war between Pashtuns and Mughals in Bahar and Bangal (Shah-Jahan Karlani), etc.

Inter-tribal rivalries were also playing into this e.g. Yousafzais' cousins Gigyanis were on the side of Babur ---were rather urging Babur to attack Yousafzais---Dalazaks and Swatis had rivalries with Khakhi Khel over control on Swat and Peshawar Valley, etc. and wanted Mughals to punish Yousafzais.

[KGODB]

Moghul rulers never physically persecuted Hindus or Christians living in their territories.
.

[drona]

1.This is engraved on the Diwan e Khas in the Red Fort, Delhi. Built by Emperor Shahjahan the entire capital complex was then called Shajahanabad.

2. Throughout Northern Hindustan covering the entire Indus and Gangetic valleys are innumerable beautiful gardens, palaces, forts, edifices and mosques which speak of the taste of the Central/West Asian rulers and the craftsmanship of the workers/engineers they had brought from home. It is amazing that there is hardly anything indigenous visible that could come anywhere near in class. Also we should remember that what is available today is only a part / remnant because the English Co marauders had in 1957-58 began destroying anything Muslim - till the Chief of Archaeological Deptt of the Company could convince the Gov General to intervene.

Not so amazing, when one considers the fact that North India faced multitudes of invasions during that age. And the first target of the invaders' greed were always the architectural marvels as wealth was stored in the temples.

In South India, there are remnants of architecture whose antiquity, beauty and grandiosity far outstrips that of Central Asian upstarts.