Understanding Pashtun Nationalism

[Zufash]

Sup, PFers!

Qrratugai here. (I tried to make this account with "qrratugai" ('Cause I prefer that name), but it said the name's already taken. Fail. I had that account closed a long time ago, yo.)

Anyway, in trying to understand this whole Pashtun nationalism phenomenon, if I may call it that, I'd like to ask a few questions that I hope some of us here can answer. You are welcome to refer me to any literature, sites, blogs, etc. that might illuminate our understanding of the topic, but I prefer to hear your individual responses.

Also, I chose to make this thread in the History section because I believe this is a phenomenon and an important part of Pashtun history, partially ignited and promoted by the Internet (discussion forums, blogs, social networks.

The questions are as follows.

1. What is Pashtun nationalism?

2. What exactly do Pashtun nationalists want?
2a. Do those from the Pakistan side have the same objective(s) as those from the Afghanistan side?

3. Is Pashtun nationalism a struggle for “ethnic” nationalism or “national” nationalism? (If this doesn't make sense, think about it for a while until you get it; if still unclear, I'll clarify it later.)


4. Is there any need to "justify" Pashtun nationalism from an Islamic viewpoint? If yes, how do Pashtun nationalists justify their struggles and objectives using Islam?

When you answer, I ask that you speak just for yourself so as not to generalize. You are also encouraged to offer your observations of Pashtun nationalism and nationalists.

Many thanks!

EDIT - P.S. For updates on this study, click here.

[یاسمینه]

It sounds as you would want to collect here data for some qualitative researches. If you ask more questions I will think you are going to conduct in-depth interviews...

[Zufash]

Oh, yes - I should have dded in the post that this is for a potential paper for a class on Identity (the self vs. the other). If I can gather enough information on it, I will make this my final papery/study; if not, I'll choose some other topic related to Pashtuns.

But, na, I'm not interested in interviews. My research style is such that I don't prefer to "interview" people; I only like to have discussions with them. This one's on how Pashtion nationalism is perceived and received on the Internet. I'm interested in Pashtun nationalists' blogs and opinions and objectives as proponents of nationalism.

Thanks for pointing that out, Yasmeenaah guley!

[یاسمینه]

If it's sth like study design, then some issues are missing, like potential respondents. I hope you realize that not all PF members are Pashtuns.
Another thing, you have made a priori assumptions - Pashtuns from Afgh and Pakistan may have different perceprion of nationalism, or that there is difference between "ethnic" and "national" nationalism. To me, that is something that you could eventually get from the answers. Last thing - questions shouldn't suggest possible answers...

[Zufash]

If it's sth like study design, then some issues are missing, like potential respondents. I hope you realize that not all PF members are Pashtuns.
Another thing, you have made a priori assumptions - Pashtuns from Afgh and Pakistan may have different perceprion of nationalism, or that there is difference between "ethnic" and "national" nationalism. To me, that is something that you could eventually get from the answers. Last thing - questions shouldn't suggest possible answers...

A very good interpretation of my questions, Yasmeenah! Glad to have you around.

If you read Question 2a carefully ("Do those from the Pakistan side have the same objective(s) as those from the Afghanistan side"), it asks if the objectives of the Pashtuns on both sides of the Durand line are different; it doesn't ask, for instance, how they are different. I think that if I had asked how they're different, I'd definitely be making the assumption that they're not the same, but with the current wording, I'm asking if they're the same -- and if they're not, we'd know from the responses.

As for ethnic vs national nationalism, well, let me ask you this. Do you not think that national and ethnic identities are different? I would love to hear your response if you think they're the same. But let me explain. As far as I understand this whole issue of identity, there are many different types of identities, including religious, ethnic, and national. Pakistanis who love Pakistan may be (or are?) considered nationalists (but keep in mind that I haven't defined "nationalism" in saying this), but what about when these Pakistan-supporters and -lovers are Pashtun by ethnicity? And what about those Afghans ("Afghans" here means someone nationally Afghan, someone who has Afghan citizenship but is not necessarily a Pashtun) who are patriots of Afghanistan? Are they Afghan nationalists, too? Moreover, is an Afghan nationalist (someone born in and having the citizenship / national identity of Afghanistan) who is ethnically Pashtun considered a Pashtun nationalist?

I hope that clarifies why I made the distinction between "ethnic" Pashtun nationalism and "national" Pashtun nationalism -- because they are not the same. I'd be happy to hear your reasoning if you see no difference in this.

Oh, and those who reply don't have to be Pashtuns necessarily, because this isn't a study on Pashtun nationalist but a study of Pashtun nationalism. The study also wants to explore how Pashtun nationalism (and Pashtun nationalists) are perceived by others -- i.e., those who don't identify themselves as nationalists, particularly Pakistani Pashtuns who support Pakistan and don't support an independent Pukhtunistan or the joining of Pakistani Pukhtuns with Afghanistan. This is entirely based on how Pashtun nationalism is seen and promoted online, and my paper would obviously point out its own limitations regarding the reliance on the Internet for answers to my questions I realize, for instance, that some of my respondents may have more than one account and may use both to respond to my questions. So it's not just the issue of whether the speaker is Pashtun or not; there're many other issues as well.

Thanks again for your engagement in the discussion! I appreciate your responses so far and am excited about learning from you through your feedback, questions, and answers!

[tor_khan]

PaKhair Raghley Q!

My quick responses to the above:

1. What is Pashtun nationalism?

Complex ... but I define it in stages. First, it requires that recognising that national identity is composed of commonalities such as language, culture, history and "ethnicity". The latter part is broader, and doesn't imply superiority. Pashtoon nationalism is built on 1 and 2, though the intellectual urban argument begins to disregard ethnicity, largely because there are pockets of people throughout the subcontinent and beyond who may claim Afghan ancestry, but are culturally non-Afghan.

2. What exactly do Pashtun nationalists want?

Most want closer ties based on the above. For some national identities matter less and for others they are a barrier and hence they are the most likely to want a Pashtunistan/Loy Afghanistan state. Certainly there is also a push to raise the socio-economic, cultural and linguistic profile of Pashtoons. This being the case, neighbouring groups can become Pashtoonised and absorbed into the culture once it reaches a position of strength/dominance.

2a. Do those from the Pakistan side have the same objective(s) as those from the Afghanistan side?

Varies considerably and within each dominion. For some people, like me, it doesn't which side of the line one is from, but then that is exactly the problem. Pashtoon nationalists contest any line of divide. What they can't always agree on is the extent to how far other ethno-linguisitc groups should be incorporated into a future state.

Where the nationalist movement is weak it is because of a number of factors. Many Pashtoons in Pakistan are "institutionalised" and are embedded in the system, so there is less call of nationalism. Afghanistan has been weakened because of conflict and cannot make the same kinds of vocal nationalist callings to Pashtoon in Pakistan as was prevalent during Daud's time for example. For a long time, perhaps many Pashtoons saw Pakistan as the better option because alongside themselves, they saw Pashtoons from Afghanistan choosing to live there. The current conflict has also been used to divide Pashtoons. Successful nationalist movements often centre around a common external enemy. The Baloch have theirs, but the Pashtoons can't see theirs if you like.

What happens next in Afghanistan and Pakistan will make a significant difference and could be a trigger for the rise in nationalism in the future.

3. Is Pashtun nationalism a struggle for “ethnic” nationalism or “national” nationalism?

Can't speak for everyone, but I figure it is probably the latter.

4. Is there any need to "justify" Pashtun nationalism from an Islamic viewpoint? If yes, how do Pashtun nationalists justify their struggles and objectives using Islam?

As much as Islam is used to unite, it has let's face it been used to divide or over-rule. The Taliban is a very poor example, but within and beyond Pakistan, it is the lens through which many Pashtoons are viewed, and hence the media example of Pashtooniyat and Islam.

[bernardwhite]

thank you Zufash for your topic.

I am eager to learn from this thread.

I am a non Pashtun actor who is about to start rehearsal playing a Pashtun Commander, a Khan, during the soviet invasion.

in the play, I am described as a "nationalist".

and the "nation" that I am speaking of is Afghanistan. I say that I am fighting for all the people of Afghanistan as opposed to Hekmatyar who is only fighting for his hezb i islami and what I see as his Pakistani overseers.

I, therefore, am wanting the Tajiks, the Uzbeks, the Hazara's all to unite to expel the invader. (whether it be the soviets or the chinese or the iranians or the pakistanis or the u.s.) anyone who is threatening our sovereignty.

so, for me, (in my ignorance perhaps), I see a nationalist, whether he be Pashtun or Tajik to be a nationalist for the Afghan nation as opposed to the idea of fighting for a separate ethnic nation.

(ethnic separation, even if it is to right thousands of years of oppression just doesn't seem to be the answer to me, whether it be in Afghanistan or Sri Lanka or the middle east or the U.S. . . . new york is my kind of city, where, as I learned tonight from a very smart young man, over 800 languages are spoken on this tiny island)

therefore, for my money, a Pashtun Nationalist is an Afghan Nationalist who happens to be Pashtun.

as opposed to one seeking the separate nation of Pashtunistan.

although, I imagine, popular opinion will state otherwise.

I would love to learn more about the other side of the coin. I would love to hear from those who think the only answer for the Pashtuns is to have a separate nation.

what is the distinction between "nationalism" and "pride"?

can one just be deeply proud to be Pashtun without being a Pashtun nationalist?

[یاسمینه]

See below:

A very good interpretation of my questions, Yasmeenah! Glad to have you around.
Thanks. Methodology is my first backgroud, I have ~ 15 yrs experience in applying methodology in social and medical studies.

If you read Question 2a carefully ("Do those from the Pakistan side have the same objective(s) as those from the Afghanistan side"), it asks if the objectives of the Pashtuns on both sides of the Durand line are different; it doesn't ask, for instance, how they are different. I think that if I had asked how they're different, I'd definitely be making the assumption that they're not the same, but with the current wording, I'm asking if they're the same -- and if they're not, we'd know from the responses.
Yes. You are right but I also have right saying that your question by mentioning 2 countries suggests potential differences. Let's say qualitative researches are never easy.
If you have decided to make distinction between Pashtuns from Afghanistan and Pakistan (I mean potential differences in their perception of nationalism), then why don't you ask about objectives of Pashtuns living abroad?

As for ethnic vs national nationalism, well, let me ask you this. Do you not think that national and ethnic identities are different?
To me ethnicity and nationalism are two different terms and you mixed tihem in one question. I'm sure you have heard about impact of question's wording on potential answers.

I would love to hear your response if you think they're the same. But let me explain. As far as I understand this whole issue of identity, there are many different types of identities, including religious, ethnic, and national. Pakistanis who love Pakistan may be (or are?) considered nationalists (but keep in mind that I haven't defined "nationalism" in saying this), but what about when these Pakistan-supporters and -lovers are Pashtun by ethnicity?
I agree with you - there are many different identities, but this study design will not give you answers for your querries. Again, qualitative researches are ruled by its own laws. Yet they still need solid methodological frames.
This forum gives you better opportunities to write about nationalism (I will write later about).
And what about those Afghans ("Afghans" here means someone nationally Afghan, someone who has Afghan citizenship but is not necessarily a Pashtun) who are patriots of Afghanistan? Are they Afghan nationalists, too? Moreover, is an Afghan nationalist (someone born in and having the citizenship / national identity of Afghanistan) who is ethnically Pashtun considered a Pashtun nationalist?
see above

I hope that clarifies why I made the distinction between "ethnic" Pashtun nationalism and "national" Pashtun nationalism -- because they are not the same. I'd be happy to hear your reasoning if you see no difference in this.
I understand your issues and I have to admit that my recent discussion with my Pashtun friend made me thinking of reading more about nationalism in Afghanistan. All I want to say is that the methodology is not proper.

Oh, and those who reply don't have to be Pashtuns necessarily, because this isn't a study on Pashtun nationalist but a study of Pashtun nationalism.
Yes, but probably you will have different answers from Pashtuns, non-Pashtuns etc

The study also wants to explore how Pashtun nationalism (and Pashtun nationalists) are perceived by others -- i.e., those who don't identify themselves as nationalists, particularly Pakistani Pashtuns who support Pakistan and don't support an independent Pukhtunistan or the joining of Pakistani Pukhtuns with Afghanistan.
That's why you should know more about "respondents", to identify "others"

This is entirely based on how Pashtun nationalism is seen and promoted online, and my paper would obviously point out its own limitations regarding the reliance on the Internet for answers to my questions I realize, for instance, that some of my respondents may have more than one account and may use both to respond to my questions. So it's not just the issue of whether the speaker is Pashtun or not; there're many other issues as well.
Even Interent-based researche could be conducted in the way that reduces potential confounding factors.

Thanks again for your engagement in the discussion! I appreciate your responses so far and am excited about learning from you through your feedback, questions, and answers!
Above I mentioned other type of study. I mean analysis of semantic field. You choose the thread on PF and and analyse word by word, groups of words etc. It's time consumming, additionally it would required here knowledge of English and Pashto. But obtained data would be much more informative and reliable.
Another way is to choose few people and try to conduct with them in-depth interwiews.
Well, that's what I would do.

Do you run your project only on this PF forum?

[pir_Rokhan]

1. What is Pashtun nationalism?

Pashtun nationalism like any other nationalism is just a collective consciousness for safeguarding the socio-politico-economic coupled with cultural-linguistic and basic human rights of the Pashtun community.

2. What exactly do Pashtun nationalists want?

Pashtun nationalists just want to make sure that the basic human rights of their community are not violated anywhere in the world and especially in those lands or countries where they are in the form of a community.

3. Do those from the Pakistan side have the same objective(s) as those from the Afghanistan side?

They cannot have the same objectives as the status and rights of Pashtuns are different in these countries. Afghanistan is the motherland of Pashtuns where they are in majority and have been in power since 1747 in an organized form.
In case of Pakistani they are in majority in one of the provinces now called Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and have been deprived of their rights for more than half a century and are being discriminated against and even killed and massacred as per state policy along with other oppressed ethnic groups like Balochis, sindhis and seraikis by the defacto military power elite. Pashtun nationalists want a resolution of issues between Afghanistan and Pakistan regarding Durand line, formation of Pashtun province/s for Pashtuns, Provincial autonomy and due share in power, governance and resources in the centre.

4. Is Pashtun nationalism a struggle for “ethnic” nationalism or “national” nationalism? (If this doesn't make sense, think about it for a while until you get it; if still unclear, I'll clarify it later).

Pashtun nationalism in Pakistan - in short- is a struggle for rights and resolution of issue about fate of Pashtun in Pakistan due to Durand line issue between Pakistan and Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, because Pashtun are in majority and it is their historic land – Pashtun nationalism or more rightly Afghan nationalism is a struggle for territorial nationalism which means that all nations living there are Afghans with their due rights ensured by the state, constitutions and the republic. There, Pashtuns- being in majority - have an additional responsibility to protect the rights of other ethnic groups among Afghans.

5. Is there any need to "justify" Pashtun nationalism from an Islamic viewpoint? If yes, how do Pashtun nationalists justify their struggles and objectives using Islam?

The domains of nationalism and Islam are different hence they are not mutually exclusive. Islam focuses on the moral and spiritual strength of character of an individual [subject matter of the life hereafter] and additionally gives an emotional energy to an individual so the individual can be a useful part of the social organic whole called society and stand against any injustice in a society. Nationalism is focused on the collective socio-political-economic rights of a group or nation or an ethnic group [the subject matter of life in the world].

In history we see that Moses despite being a prophet struggled for the collective political emancipation and freedom of Jews. If struggling for political freedom was against the individualistic ideals of religion [like belief in God, prophet hood or the life hereafter] then he would not have bothered to engage in a political struggle to challenge the autocratic monarchy of Pharaoh. But he did so which proves that being a spiritual person [that is religious person] is not contradictory to struggling for the collective political rights of a community or nation [a notion wrongly propagated by most of the religious groups who consider it an exercise in futility to struggle for political ideals by wrongly considering it an anti-religious activity]. I hope it helps.

[Afghanistan2010]

Everything that belongs to patriotism and nationalism is out of the fold of islam and is to be rejected...(from your pashtun brother).

[Zufash]

This is good - it's very good! Thank you for your thoughts, everyone!

Everything that belongs to patriotism and nationalism is out of the fold of islam and is to be rejected...(from your pashtun brother).

I'm glad you said this because I hear this a lot, but I'm not sure on what basis some Muslims say it. Can you please explain how it's outside the fold of Islam? Is there some Qur'anic or hadith reference to nationalism/patriotism? If so, how does that ruling actually define nationalism and patriotism to consider it haraam or outside the fold of Islam?

Mananazzz again, y'allz!

[Toramana]

thank you Zufash for your topic.

so, for me, (in my ignorance perhaps), I see a nationalist, whether he be Pashtun or Tajik to be a nationalist for the Afghan nation as opposed to the idea of fighting for a separate ethnic nation.

(ethnic separation, even if it is to right thousands of years of oppression just doesn't seem to be the answer to me, whether it be in Afghanistan or Sri Lanka or the middle east or the U.S. . . . new york is my kind of city, where, as I learned tonight from a very smart young man, over 800 languages are spoken on this tiny island)

That is the dominent US view even if most Western counrties have been established on the basis of ethnic separation...I think this is very much tied to its global political interests i.e., simple structures controled through force of authoritarianiam are easy to manage compared to handling complexity and the competing interests of many actors. If it were possible US would have integrated the rest of the nasty world into one huge dictatorship for easier management.

In 1960s, they suspported General Soharto in oppressing East Taimuris but as the spectre of communist expansion was gone, East Taimur nationalism became a hot issue for US and other powers ---this also because East Taimur had oil.

What about the separation of Southern Sudan from the northern supported by US and its allies? Was the plight of ethnic minority in Sudan worse than that in Sari Lanka? What about breaking up of Arab Peninsula in numerable Shiekhdoms --- there were no ethnic divisions there? What issue did it resolve apart from the issue of uniterrupted supply of oil to the industrial centers of the world?

Mr. BernardWhite is there any other propaganda movie in the offing ...why this interest in Afghan patriotism?

[retro]

What about the separation of Southern Sudan from the northern supported by US and its allies? Was the plight of ethnic minority in Sudan worse than that in Sari Lanka? What about breaking up of Arab Peninsula in numerable Shiekhdoms --- there were no ethnic divisions there? What issue did it resolve apart from the issue of uniterrupted supply of oil to the industrial centers of the world?

Nearly all wars are socio-economic in nature. Southern Sudan has two thirds of the countries oil. However the Africans in Sudan hate the Arabs far more than they do Europeans on account of the regions History of Arab slavery.

The Young Victoria - Chess Piece - YouTube

[Zufash]

Nnnnnnnnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooo!!! Pleeeease nooo!! Don't go off-topic here, guys!! For God's sake! If your answers don't have anything to do with the questions I've asked or your posts have nothing to do with Pashtun nationalism, leave this thread alone. Khalko la ase jarra warwalai. Ugh. Exactly what I feared would happen. ~sighs~

[unknownprince]

state of Pashtun nationalism will always be a joke when in the hands of secular poisonous individuals who support war upon Afghanistan