afghan pashtun dna to be posted soon

[evilbunny]

The Hurrian expansion into northern Mesopotamia occurred during the Bronze age (e.g. ancient times).

The hypothetical movement of J1-bearing pastoral nomads southwards into Arabia must have happened prior to this (e.g. prehistoric times).

Rather early Neolithic as this when back migration from Asia into Africa started. The Hurrians and ancient Anatolian types where like Caucasians (lots of Hap G). South Western Asian like the Arabs are distantly related to Balkan populations and it's possible that J emerged there.

[evilbunny]

Al-Arab

Assyrians might well be Semitic however they certainly aren't Arabs and the Kurds aren't excatly from Mesopotamia either. Iraqi Arab like yourself are Arabised Assyrians and Iraq has a extremely mixed population.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Yes he has Al-Turki.

In fact we were talking about the origin of Semetic people before and he clearly stated (as the genetic studies he used as proof says) that the Semetic people originated in an area between Northern Mespotamia, Zagros Mountains and Southern Anatolia. Not Yemen.

But that doesn't mean Arabs did, the ancestors of "Arabs" may have, but even that isn't necessarily true. The Arabic language originated from Southwest Arabia this we know as fact.

Arabs are not only Semetic linguistically but also in terms of genetics you fool. There is a reason why they are called Semetic peoples. They are RELATED. Just like Indo-Europeans are related with each other in terms of linguistics and genetics.

Arabs as you asserted have diverse genetics; my question to DMXX is whether or not People from your part of the Currently known Arab world share genetic markers of the ORIGINAL Arabic speakers or if you're Arabized.

You're swaying the issue entirely.

Arabs, as the genetic evidence proofs and everything else could not originate from Southern Arabia when the first Semetic people lived in Iraq.
It's like saying white Americans originated in USA because they call themselves Americans (while in fact they are descendants of Europeans)
We were talking about Arabs before. And Arabs did not appear out of nowhere. They came from somewhere.

Yes they could have, just because the Possible Ancestors of Arabs MAY have come from somewhere else does not mean that the Base Arab group themselves did not come from there.

It is like with any evolutionary pattern , Everytime a group of people diverge and migrate, genetic changes occur

Or else you can just say that really ultimately ALL humans are Africans since all of our genetics trace back to Africa if we go FAR back in time.


And that somewhere is already defined in my post above.

And since when do we know that Arabic language originated in Yemen?

Even if it did so it does not mean that the Arab race (as DMXX already told you there is nothing called "pure" or genuine Arab as much as you try to portray that) originated from there.

well Pure Arab in this context is a reference of who were the ORIGINAL group of Arabs and their descendents.

As you very well know Iraq, Jordan, syria and so on were speakers of Aramaic, NOT Arabic, arabic was adopted After Muslims of Southwest Arabia advanced North and overtook these regions.

Yes and where do you think Arabs came from? Who are their descendants? Bingo, the Proto-Semetics living in ancient Iraq where the first Semetic language and cultures appearead and also where the first Arabic scripture (Kufic)

Well obviously ALL semitic languages come from a common root and that influenced Arabic. But again I stress my question to DMXX is referring to when Arabs became definitively known as Arabs , where did that Founder Group reside and are people like yourself from that founder group or were you genetically distinct from that group and merely adopted their language at a latter time. It is really not that complicated.

The human race itself according to Modern Science came from Africa, that point is moot, we're talking about when the various peoples coalesced into Southwest Arabia and initiated the first Arabic peoples. Not who the ancestors OF the Arabs were.

This is why your insistence of equating Arabs with Proto Semitic is a red herring; because similarly Hebrews are Semitic would that mean Semitic means Hebrew? Or that Arabs are Hebrew? This is why your association is faulty.

and the word Arab first was used 2800 years ago by Assyrians to refer to non-Assyrians living in Assyria.

Even if such a reference exist, there is no evidence they were natives to Mesopotamia.

In short you have showed zero evidence of your absurd claims.

In short you're being intellectually dishonest and misuing the word Semitic to explain why Iraqis who did not originally speak Arabic are currently speaking a foreign language; which as we know from Linguists originated in Yemen.

It's already been proven that Yemenis have a very big admixture with Africans from Etiophia and Somalia unlike every other modern Arab population today, as DMXX already pointed out when he quoted an recent genetic study on the admixture of Yemenis.

The Original Arabs then would have had a big admixture of Africans as well by default since the Arabic language transitioned from this region and spread Northward. It's not being disputed whether an African admixture is present.. Rather if peoples outside the Arabian peninsula today are From these Original people who lived in Southwest Arabia.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

.



Ask a Assyrian if he is the same as an Iraqi Arab and he will hit you hard in the face. Just like an Iraqi Arab would hit you in the face if you claimed the opposite. But "nice" provocations troll.

That's NOT because Iraqis who currently identify as Arabs aren't Assyrian; it is because the Assyrians who didn't get Arabized retained their Assyrian identify. Where as yours were conquered and eventually made into Arabs, or Arabized.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Al-Arab

Assyrians might well be Semitic however they certainly aren't Arabs and the Kurds aren't excatly from Mesopotamia either. Iraqi Arab like yourself are Arabised Assyrians and Iraq has a extremely mixed population.

That's exactly what I have been trying to tell Al-Arab, Semitic is a Parent group so therefore it cannot mean "Arab" but he is using Arab and Semitic as if they mean the same thing.

All he can say is that Semitics possibly originated outside the Arabian Peninsula; but the people who became known as Arab were founded within Southwest Arabia.

[titus1049]

That map and the accompanying text is almost in perfect accordance with similar data I've read over the past few years. The paper you quoted by Kitchen et al. is, due to the methodology (Bayesian+fixed dating from known extinct branches), what I consider to be definitive evidence of Proto-Semitic originating somewhere north of the Arabian Peninsula;

Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East
Kitchen et al. - Proc. R. Soc. B 7 August 2009 vol. 276 no. 1668 2703-2710


[Link]

I am uncertain regarding the admixture proportions (if it occurred to a detectable extent) between Yemeni Jews with other Yemenis, but I can draw your attention to the Dodecad Ancestry Project ADMIXTURE K=12 autosomal results once more, where Yemeni Jews reveal themselves to be slightly more Caucasian (i.e. West Asian), Atlantic_Med (i.e. Meditarranean) and less East African than their Yemeni countrymen, which is in line with additional ancestry from a West Eurasian population outside of Southwest Asia proper.

The origins of the African components in Yemen were certainly numerous; without claiming confidence in this particular bit of speculation and based on my admittedly rudimentary knowledge of that region's history, I would imagine longstanding trade relations with the Horn of Africa, post-Islamic slave trading and perhaps an autochthonous element present since prehistoric times.

Would you associate J1/SW Asian components in more Northern populations such as Armenians, Iranians, Caucasians and Turks as proto Semite or just native near Eastern Farmer ancestry?

[DMXX]

Is there a proto Semite/converted semite input in populations with J1/SW Asian components such as Iranians, Kurds, Caucasians, Armenians, Anatolian Turks etc?

At present, in my opinion, I consider the J1* and Southwest Asian components found across the Near-East and Caucasus to be inextricably linked and simply an indication that the Southwest Asian component's ultimate origins are further north of Arabia (i.e. reaching a maximum towards the south).

For the sake of simplicity, consider it inheritance from the "parent" population that eventually led onto J1c3-carrying pastoral nomads who spoke Proto-Semitic.

To calibrate (or even validate!) this hypothesis, one would need to confidently ascertain the ages of J1-M267, J1c-L136, J1c3-P58 and finally J1c3d-L147. That may give an indication of which specific downstream SNP should be associated with the first Proto-Semitic speakers.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Regardless of its' usage by other posters, I have attempted to describe the authenticated scenario of Proto-Semitic originating above the Arabian Peninsula.

Arabic is of course a Central Semitic language, an offshoot of Proto-Semitic. I have intentionally not addressed the origins of the Arabic language as it has little bearing on this topic. Defining the linguistic developments of Arabic relative to Aramaic and other Semitic languages is, as I understand it, a tenuous topic. For all we know, it may have originated immediately south of the Levant and Mesopotamia.

I don't think there is a clear-cut answer to the question you asked; numerous population movements occurred within ancient times, let alone the standardization of Arabic in Iraq as we see it today. Iraqis who have tested their DNA appear to be a rather heterogenous group; as I mentioned before, one showed a position between Arabia and Iran on Global PCA charts, with ADMIXTURE runs showing certain component values which are consistent with Iranian/Persian ancestry. Another, on the other hand, sat on the Saudi-Iraqi border, perhaps indicating they have a significant amount of ancestry from within the Arabian Peninsula.

There is, of course, the problem of sample sizes and population specificity. Baghdadi Sunni Arabs will likely have different autosomal positions compared to Basra Shi'a Arabs, who will also probably be different from bedouin Sunni Arabs from the west of the country. We won't know what is typical of which Iraqi populations until more individuals test their DNA.

I have been told numerous times by both Arabs and Assyrians online that the etymology of the word "Arab" may derive from a common Proto-Semitic root meaning "nomad". I do not claim any deep knowledge in Semitic etymologies.

I should also point out that Yemeni Arabs simply have more African admixture than their counterparts from elsewhere on the peninsula; both autosomal and mitochondrial DNA in places like Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the UAE indicate there has been some recent mixing, likely from the maternal side. Autosomal DNA can also be found in Syria and even further north in Turkey; it has been suggested in genetic genealogy communities that this is both a relic of the Ottoman empire's slave routes, as well as, of course, Islam's message of oneness regardless of race and ethnicity.

So basically you're saying the actual Genetic Founders of the Current Iraqi Arab Population has not been researched yet .....contrary to Al-Arabs claim that they have been and they resoundingly implicate that the Arabs migrated from Iraq?

Would you say Al-Arabs claim that Arabs came from Iraq is unsubstantiated or false?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Exactly DMXX.
.

I don't thinkactually reading what DMXX is saying , you respond with "Exactly" as if DMXX's statement agree with your narrative


He's saying that they don't have enough information on Iraq as of yet.

So how can you come back and reply with all your remarks as if the were definitive truths when DMxX is saying that they aren't known?

[DMXX]

So basically you're saying the actual Genetic Founders of the Current Iraqi Arab Population has not been researched yet .....contrary to Al-Arabs claim that they have been and they resoundingly implicate that the Arabs migrated from Iraq?

Would you say Al-Arabs claim that Arabs came from Iraq is unsubstantiated or false?

Absolutely correct. We do not know the exact autosomal affiliations of select Iraqi populations. We do not know, say, whether the affinity towards Saudi Arabia observed in one Iraqi is typical of all Iraqi Arabs or only those with recent tribal heritage. The most concise evidence we have at the moment is Y-Chromosomal and mitochondrial DNA, which shows fairly complex interactions between the Arabian Peninsula, the Levant, Anatolia, the Iranian plateau amongst other places.

I have not seen any material that contradicted the origin of Arabic in or around Iraq. Mesopotamia and the Levant, as described earlier, are the linguistic hotbeds for the Semitic languages. Both you and al-arab are arguing against different models for the formation of Proto-Arabic. There are no inherent flaws in either of your models, but presumptions are being made in the absence of data.

I am not a linguist, nor am I intimately familiar with the dates associated with the Arabic language's development.

When do linguists suspect Proto-Arabic was spoken?
Where do we see evidence of early Arabian offshoots?
How large is the time difference between the two?
Which part of the Near-East has the greatest diversity in Arabian dialects?

If these questions can be answered in a satisfactory manner and point to the same area, that would be your answer, gentlemen.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Absolutely correct. We do not know the exact autosomal affiliations of select Iraqi populations. We do not know, say, whether the affinity towards Saudi Arabia observed in one Iraqi is typical of all Iraqi Arabs or only those with recent tribal heritage. The most concise evidence we have at the moment is Y-Chromosomal and mitochondrial DNA, which shows fairly complex interactions between the Arabian Peninsula, the Levant, Anatolia, the Iranian plateau amongst other places.

I have not seen any material that contradicted the origin of Arabic in or around Iraq. Mesopotamia and the Levant, as described earlier, are the linguistic hotbeds for the Semitic languages. Both you and al-arab are arguing against different models for the formation of Proto-Arabic. There are no inherent flaws in either of your models, but presumptions are being made in the absence of data.

I am not a linguist, nor am I intimately familiar with the dates associated with the Arabic language's development.

When do linguists suspect Proto-Arabic was spoken?
Where do we see evidence of early Arabian offshoots?
How large is the time difference between the two?
Which part of the Near-East has the greatest diversity in Arabian dialects?

If these questions can be answered in a satisfactory manner and point to the same area, that would be your answer, gentlemen.

Thank you, Al-Arab keeps insisting his statements as facts and I just needed corroboration that the genetic data does not as of yet support his claims.

As for the linguistic issue; The consensus says that while Arabic was not merely contained in the Southwest Arabian peninsula; the migratory patterns show that it would have originated in Yemen, thus Arabs as distinct ethnological identity would more likely have began in the region of Modern Yemen and branched out and eventually replacing the languages primarily spoken in Iraq as the linga franca.

[DMXX]

As for the linguistic issue; The consensus says that while Arabic was not merely contained in the Southwest Arabian peninsula; the migratory patterns show that it would have originated in Yemen, thus Arabs as distinct ethnological identity would more likely have began in the region of Modern Yemen and branched out and eventually replacing the languages primarily spoken in Iraq as the linga franca.

Could you please provide us with the evidence that Arabic originated in Yemen?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Could you please provide us with the evidence that Arabic originated in Yemen?

http://www.indiana.edu/~arabic/arabic_history.htm

[DMXX]

http://www.indiana.edu/~arabic/arabic_history.htm

Do you have any recent sources? That entry, though concise, was written in 1999.

[roadrunner]

I will post your very informative post here becasue it may interest people, also because of the supposed origin of Pashtuns from Bani Israel

Bani Israel and Pashtuns. That has to be the biggest piece of historical BS ever written.