Future Map of Loy Afghanistan(pukhtunistan)

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

Another thing, your co ideologist doesn't support any pashtun unity. Read just this. http://www.pashtunforums.com/391337-post26.html

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How does me saying ``Pashtuns can be Pakistani and Pashtun`` mean I dont support unity.....

Dont you think it is very condescending and arrogant to tell 25 million Pashtuns what they should identify with....

Theres nothing I want more than Pashtun unity, but we need to recognize some realities first.

There are many Pashtuns who are strong patriotic Pashtuns and love unity but they are not gonna abandon Pakistan for a utopian ideal

If your position is anti Pakistan, then you lose many Pashtun brothers support right away...that is not how you should appeal to them

The initial appeal to all Pakhtuns must be social-cultural. Forget Politics. That only seeks to divide.

Our focus should be on building the Afghan Pakhtun lands, and integrating it economically with Lar Pakhtunkhwa. And when the Pakistani govt interferes in such plans, then inform all Pakhtuns of these actions and mobilize them behind such clear evident schemes.

But you cant go gunning for their national identity right away, you dont have the right to do that. Just because your side continued its allegiance to the Kabul court and they didnt

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

I think you and the comedy that is 'nick' epitomizes everything that is wrong with Pashtons and Al-Ghaznawi epitomizes everything that is good and honourable about Pashtons. You're a sad outfit.

How could you come to the conclusion that Al-Ghaznawi is spreading hatred towards "non-Pashto speaking afghans? If anything, he is amongst the finger count people who are trying to objectively and reasonably assess the problems, while showing consideration for the aspiration and feelings of other ethnic groups as well.

Taking into consideration what you wrote, I don't think you have a quarter of honour that Al-Ghaznawi has. He is striving to mend his broken nation, whereas it's you who is SPREADING MISINFORMATION and misleading readersm, giving people a false notion of power.

Listen, wroora, the days of "Dae Pakhtunistan Zemong" drums from Kabul are well and truely OVER. The sooner you numpties realize this, the better you'd come out of this doomness. Tajiks and others are well-entrenched, well-armed and very, very motivated. They won't give you a chance this time.

Stand up, dust yourselve down and be content and satisfied with what you possess and deserve. Do not wish the impossible.

Al-Ghaznawi knows what he is talking about because he is not a plastic.

While I certainly am not a man that rejects compliments, and I recognize you as one from the other side I can ``do business`` with, I complete reject your insult of my language. But my expectations are not that high for you guys in the first place :D

btw, I dont buy into the notion at all that non Pashtun separatism is a rising force. I think its just a token number of rable rousers. Their complaints are for the most part legit, but Afghan separatism is not viable....but may be soon.

[ScimitarXEdge]

fzpz, whether you are one of the descendents of Ranjit Singh or Goru Nanak or were a snake or a snail in the prvious spill of life according to your Hindu/Indian belief, don't try to push your Indianized ethno-chaunist views down our throat...The plain fact is, no matter how much you try you can't escape from your Indic/Hindu past, culture and ethnicity-wise...You belong to Gangetic Plains...we belong to Hindukush...Rest, this chicanery of citing Mandarine, French, etc. will not work...

Is this all babble you peddle to compensate you named yourself after an Indian prakrit speaking ruler?

[Karachi]

I dont understand this Gangetic plains argument?, do punjabies and sindhis belong to gangetic plains? no they dont, they belong to Indus Valley/plains. Gangetic plains are located in central india and even Eastern India, places like UP, Bihar, Bengal etc... much of the early indic religion culture was founded in what is northern punjab area today and even places like Peshawar, Swat etc....,

[Bengal_Tiger]

Salam Nick Jaan,

I will respond to you when I can.

Thanks for your post.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

While I certainly am not a man that rejects compliments, and I recognize you as one from the other side I can ``do business`` with, I complete reject your insult of my language. But my expectations are not that high for you guys in the first place :D

btw, I dont buy into the notion at all that non Pashtun separatism is a rising force. I think its just a token number of rable rousers. Their complaints are for the most part legit, but Afghan separatism is not viable....but may be soon.

Can you at some point refer us to some literature for your views? I find that when I state the same thing I am generally attacked. What are your views on the parties across the durand line and pashtun separatism in pakistan? My general argument, per my changing views after having seen KP proper, is that it is also a nonviable force. What are your views in general regarding Pashtun separatism?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

How does me saying ``Pashtuns can be Pakistani and Pashtun`` mean I dont support unity.....

Dont you think it is very condescending and arrogant to tell 25 million Pashtuns what they should identify with....

Theres nothing I want more than Pashtun unity, but we need to recognize some realities first.

There are many Pashtuns who are strong patriotic Pashtuns and love unity but they are not gonna abandon Pakistan for a utopian ideal

If your position is anti Pakistan, then you lose many Pashtun brothers support right away...that is not how you should appeal to them

The initial appeal to all Pakhtuns must be social-cultural. Forget Politics. That only seeks to divide.

Our focus should be on building the Afghan Pakhtun lands, and integrating it economically with Lar Pakhtunkhwa. And when the Pakistani govt interferes in such plans, then inform all Pakhtuns of these actions and mobilize them behind such clear evident schemes.

But you cant go gunning for their national identity right away, you dont have the right to do that. Just because your side continued its allegiance to the Kabul court and they didnt

couldnt agree more. As I asked though, any reading materials you can throw our way, or any personal anecdote that bought you to this view? If you have discussed this numerous times here then any links would be excellent.

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

Can you at some point refer us to some literature for your views? I find that when I state the same thing I am generally attacked. What are your views on the parties across the durand line and pashtun separatism in pakistan? My general argument, per my changing views after having seen KP proper, is that it is also a nonviable force. What are your views in general regarding Pashtun separatism?

Salam wrora

I cant really say there was any particular literature that influenced me, more so life experiences and political maturity

I too, like many Bar Pakhtuns, was raised on the ``Peshawar and Quetta are ours, the British took it from us`` by my father

But as a 7 yr old, I remember asking him, ``If that land is ours, how come we dont take it back``. And my father replied, ``because we`re not strong enough too``

At the time, that simple answer was enough. But as an adult, I started to think clearly. If Lar Pakhtuns require economic stability in our country to part ways with theirs, then in essence, it is not ethnic patriotism or unity that would be their motivator but economics. Sure our Lar brothers are not prostitutes to be swayed by dollars.

I also increasingly found it difficult to reconcile my Loy Afghanistan vision with the fact that most Lar Pakhtuns dont buy into it, and are content with being Pakistanis.

I then began researching the Loy Afghanistan paradigm, ,the Pashtunistan movement etc, and analyzed the reason for its failures

I realized that the Pakhtun were never a nation state, and the first time they were invited to be a part of one was not done by a Kabul King but rather by the British Raj, later Pakistan.

I realized also that Northern Afghanistan is not Pashtun land inhabited by non Pashtun refugees but by people who were locals of the land, and that surely they would never accept a Loy Afghanistan.

I realized the immense damage caused to Afghanistan by its failed pro Pashtunistan policy

I realized the hypocricy of Daud Khan demanding a Pashtunistan out of Pakistan but would not include his own Pashtun population.

I could go on and on but this is a general summary of my evolution of thought

At one point, I even thought it best for us Pashtuns to recognize the Durand and focus on our respective constituencies.

My view now, is that I will NEVER recognize the Durand Line, as it is and always will be a colonially imposed division of the Pakhtun family. But I also have NO land claim on the other side whatsoever. This should be Afghanistans official policy.

This leads the way to an open border, and cooperation at a supranational level between the 2 states. Perhaps Im naive in thinking the Pakistani state will be satisfied with this, or that cultural and social unity can take place without a political one

Frankly, dont think we have much of a choice anyways.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Salam wrora

I cant really say there was any particular literature that influenced me, more so life experiences and political maturity

I too, like many Bar Pakhtuns, was raised on the ``Peshawar and Quetta are ours, the British took it from us`` by my father

But as a 7 yr old, I remember asking him, ``If that land is ours, how come we dont take it back``. And my father replied, ``because we`re not strong enough too``

At the time, that simple answer was enough. But as an adult, I started to think clearly. If Lar Pakhtuns require economic stability in our country to part ways with theirs, then in essence, it is not ethnic patriotism or unity that would be their motivator but economics. Sure our Lar brothers are not prostitutes to be swayed by dollars.

I also increasingly found it difficult to reconcile my Loy Afghanistan vision with the fact that most Lar Pakhtuns dont buy into it, and are content with being Pakistanis.

I then began researching the Loy Afghanistan paradigm, ,the Pashtunistan movement etc, and analyzed the reason for its failures

I realized that the Pakhtun were never a nation state, and the first time they were invited to be a part of one was not done by a Kabul King but rather by the British Raj, later Pakistan.

I realized also that Northern Afghanistan is not Pashtun land inhabited by non Pashtun refugees but by people who were locals of the land, and that surely they would never accept a Loy Afghanistan.

I realized the immense damage caused to Afghanistan by its failed pro Pashtunistan policy

I realized the hypocricy of Daud Khan demanding a Pashtunistan out of Pakistan but would not include his own Pashtun population.

I could go on and on but this is a general summary of my evolution of thought

At one point, I even thought it best for us Pashtuns to recognize the Durand and focus on our respective constituencies.

My view now, is that I will NEVER recognize the Durand Line, as it is and always will be a colonially imposed division of the Pakhtun family. But I also have NO land claim on the other side whatsoever. This should be Afghanistans official policy.

This leads the way to an open border, and cooperation at a supranational level between the 2 states. Perhaps Im naive in thinking the Pakistani state will be satisfied with this, or that cultural and social unity can take place without a political one

Frankly, dont think we have much of a choice anyways.

Absolutely wrorre, the durand line need not even be an issue. Addressing it in daily speech is what makes it all the more real. It sounds like the evolution in our thoughts took similar roads. My father still preaches the denuclearize and defang Pakistani mantra. I grew up around the thought processes of Baha Zarjon and that crowd that basically would lament about why God would not allow just a single one of Pakistan's nukes to detonate on their home turf. The picture being painted was of a mystical province that was waiting for the resurrected Abdali to come take it back with its people waiting in the throngs. Then of course, as you grow and as you read and as you travel you see a different picture emerge. The customs for example, even of marriage are so very divergent between FATA, KP, and Afghanistan proper. Within even locales, like one Wardak wedding I attended, the customs vary. The bride goes to the husbands home and hammers a nail into his doorway. These variances really impressed upon me the wide divergences between not just lar and bar but just regions in general. This was not at all a bad thing, it was just a new vision.

In fact, when I obtained a copy of Tarikh e Ahmad Shahi, I realized that even the loya jirga legend itself was augmented by nationalists on both sides. The spun tale discusses how all of the major tribes from Khalil and Mohmand to Popalzaay sent delegates to the loya jirga, attempting to equate it to some sort of constitutional convention. In fact, the names of each member in attendance is documented and all are Awdalaay and Khaljaay Pashtuns to a t in attendance.

You read on and you realize that the friction between lar and bar is historically documented at times. For example, its in the histories of Timoor Shah as well, but here is an example where a locally powerful tribe, the Khalils attempted to supplant Afghan Abdali leadership in his time:

"In 1779, when a Khalil Chief Faizullah Khan forced his entry into Bala Hisar, the King was saved by the same bodyguards."

http://www.khyber.org/places/2005/Fo...Peshawar.shtml

Here is an actual textual source of how the local strong Peshawar tribal leadership chafed under Durrani tribal rule:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tGT...20shah&f=false

Timur Shah as a retribution massacred whole sections of the Khalil and Momad tribe.

This in the chapter, expeditions into Sind and the Panjab. The Momand tribal leader Asadullah joined in the scheme to actually attempt and make Faizullah Khan Khalil a king.

Unfortunately, people do not read into this complex history between the pashtun tribal units and just run with false assumptions.

[fzpz]

Is this all babble you peddle to compensate you named yourself after an Indian prakrit speaking ruler?

I missed that, Toramona, why don't you unite with your Gandharan brothers the Punjabis? That way you can reminisce about the pre-Camelism days.