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  • #61
    Originally posted by Toramana View Post


    However you label it, Arab, or Turk, etc., Muslim Imperialism is a fact you can't deny(Muslim rule in India, Balkans, or forced conversion of non-Muslims outside Arabian Peninsula by earlier Muslims). Both Imperialisms are detestible although weak communities like Pashtuns have to live with them and manipulate their way through their conflicts/rivalaries to ensure their survival.

    .

    I didn't give any categorical statement on the Pashtun Muslim or non-Muslim controversy. The only thing I have said is, the tribe-based or creed-based notions of identity induced by the isolating impact of a natural environment and divisive, self-righteous doctrines of an intrinsically intolerant ideology will give way to a more humanistic concept of identity based on cultural and linguistic affinty. And this is already happening. This is related to the broader issue i.e., what is it that defines a Pashtun.



    I wonder how could you call the confirmation by Al-bairuni, Al-Utbi, the court historians of Mahmoud of Ghazna, of the existance of non-Muslim/pagan Pashtuns as hearsay while push in your own non-sensical, absurd, and ridiculous conspiracy theory of West's agenda to fan the rumour of the presence of non-Mulsim Pashtuns for geopolitical agenda as the truth. See below,
    To disprove the assertion that the Pukhtoon tribes had embraced Islam en-bloc after the return of Qais Abdul Rashid from Medina, the accounts of Al-Beruni and Al-Utbi, the contemporary historians of Mahmud of Ghazna, establish "that four centuries later than the time of Qais the Province of Kabul had not been Islamized and this was achieved under the Ghaznavides. The Hindu Shahiya Kingdom of Jaipal extended almost to Kabul, Mahmud had to fight against infidel Afghans of the Sulaiman mountains". Even Prithvi Raj had a cavalry of Afghans in the battle of Tarian against Mohammad Ghori.
    Moreover, I see more Muslim geopolitics in the propaganda of Pashtuns accepting Islam en-mass or being Muslims as a nation by those concerned with return to medieval Khilafath system or extending their colonial frontiers as General Zia-ul-Haq of Punjab envisaged to HinduKush on the pretext of Muslim unity.

    By the way are a Musalman first or a Pashtun first?



    The fact is, the so-called moralist society couldn't produce even 0.05% of the knowledge or moralist/humanist (as a whole) ethos (apart from a concept of morailty geared to establishing the sanctity of harems) as the dysfunctional cultures have, the many bad things they have done notwithstanding though.

    Well important point to note; the word Pashtuns is never mentioned in Ghaznawiyan Era accounts. The word "Afghan" which is mentioned is ambiguous, as it's been noted that the term "Afghan" did not get applied to Pashtoons until the 17th or 18th century, so this may not have referred to Pashtoons but inhabitants of present Afghanistan. Pashtoons didn't inhabit the Kabul valley until the 16th century. Pashtoons were by and large Semi Nomadic Pastoralists; not ironically the Ghorid Chieftans were also semi nomadic Pastoralists. You forget numerous other ethnicities aside from Pashtoons lived in the region. Pashtoons migrated from Western Valleys around Herat and Ghor and then towards Kandahar and finally the Kabul Valey much later on. Do not make the mistake that "Anyone from Afghanistan is Pashtoon". It's also important to note that the accounts of Ferishta, , Bairuni and Utibi often have contradictory information. Perhaps this is evidence of merely Ghaznawid propaganda to disparage rival Muslim rulers, this is common now where often Muslims will label other Muslims "infidel" merely for not following a certain jurisprudential ruling; I don't see why it could not happen then as well. I have no found any references that Prithivraj Chauhan had Afghan Soldiers. It Appears that the linguistic use of the word Afghan has changed dramatically over time rather than actually referring to Pashtoons in the proper sense.


    You're going back to the claim of Muslim Colonialism which is an Orientalist Lie; it's totally a manufactured concept. The only event in Muslim History which could be drawn as "colonialist" was perhaps the Ummayad era; an era highly critiqued by Muslims themselves and more over didn't last long.

    Imperialism/Colonialism is and always will be a European phenomena; that's simply the way it is. To use the term and apply it to Muslims is sheer intellectual dishonesty.

    I never made the claim that the existence of Non-Muslim Pashtuns was some western conspiracy, I said that the claim of "Arabs or Turks" to rob others freedom and liberties by imposing Islam is an Orientalist Concoction; which it is, and this has been proven by most Counter-Orientalists such as Edwaird Said in his book "Orientalism". Your response is merely a STRAW MAN argument; and thereby has no merit. If you want to debate my points; then debate the points that I have made, not the points you're trying to portray me as making.

    For the Muslims there is no "Geopolitical Propaganda" insomuch as a Unified Struggle of Muslims is concerned. This is a revolutionary movement, one based on plain historical need against an exploitive Capitalist Neo-Imperialist force. This is evident by the nature of capitalism itself, it's exploitive by it's own premises. Communism as some may respond back with, is merely statist capitalism. These extravagant fantasies of lush harems is another example of typical silliness that's been brandished as gospel by the Church of Neo-Imperialism and the naive Eastern mind has taken to heart. Using terms like "Medieval" is merely an appeal to theatrics made by a Destructive and Exploitive Neo-Imperialist Institutions; and more over it's an appeal to Novelty; typical but grossly misleading logical fallacy peddled by their ideologues. There's no propaganda needed; just a desire to resist self destruction and some dignity to do it and more over not to have the colonized mindset of having an inferiority complex by White Europeans.

    Regardless of what alleged claim of "knowledge" we are measuring here. My measure of Knowledge is how well that knowledge is used in respects to the Ecosystem and the Environment. The Dysfunctional Cultures have destroyed tremendous amounts of the Ecosystem and disturbed the Environment to the point of sabotaging the habitability of the planet. That to me demonstrates which one is intellectually and morally superior. Perhaps others do not; but that demonstrates that people who deems such societies as emblems of progress do not do so because of Logical or Rational assessment; but more likely for other motives.

    To answer your question; I am neither Muslim nor Pashtoon first or last; Islam is my way of life and belief system. Pashtoon is my ethnicity; they are not in competition for each other for who takes the lead; they coexist harmoniously as far as I am concerned. I leave such childish attempts at contrasts for the juvenile minded.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by ScimitarXEdge View Post
      Well important point to note; the word Pashtuns is never mentioned in Ghaznawiyan Era accounts. The word "Afghan" which is mentioned is ambiguous, as it's been noted that the term "Afghan" did not get applied to Pashtoons until the 17th or 18th century, so this may not have referred to Pashtoons but inhabitants of present Afghanistan.
      I don't think your speculation will stand the testimony of historical record. The term "Afghan" was mentioned in Hudul-Alam (10th century) in reference to a village "Soul" said by later historians to be east of Ghazni, in Gardez. Hudul-Alam says, it is inhabited by Afghans. Al-Bairuni, writes, in his Tarikhul-Hind that various tribes of Afghans lived in the mountains west of India, which is precisely the present location where Pashtuns live. Al-Bairuni says, they were savage people and describes them as Hindus.

      Even before that, Tshusan Song, the Chinese Bhudist monk, travelling in the area in 7th Century mentions a people "Apo-Kain", which some historians think is the deformation of the the name of Afghans.

      This is apart from other references to Afghans in later historical accounts.

      If Afghans weren't Pashtun, how the name came to specifically designate Pashtuns? Was it coincidence that almost all references to Afghans and their location match with the areas they now inhabit and their desciption?


      See the following link.

      http://books.google.com/books?id=9kf...page&q&f=false
      Last edited by Toramana; 12-19-2010, 06:16 PM.

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      • #63
        Rest, what you've said regarding Muslim-versus-Western imperialism is a Pan-Islamist view. Muslim Imperialism whether carried out by Arabs, or Turks, or Pashtuns, etc. is an established fact. Unlike you, overpowered by blind religion-based patriotism, I neither stand for Muslim Imperialism nor Western Imperialism. I stand for my people. And when I look at it, Western Civilization seems more accomplished to me in terms of contribution to human knowledge and understanding.

        Moreover, many people in the third-world countries including Muslim countries are destroying their immediate environment unlike the West where there is more sensitivity to the destruction of environment at many levels.
        Last edited by Toramana; 12-19-2010, 06:04 PM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Wrayun View Post
          You guys are making some grave mistakes when addressing Pukhtoon history, linage, and heritage.

          The concept of Sajra, Nasil (both Arabic words and concepts) and linage didn't exist before the arrival of Islam midst Pukhtoons. Is there a family tree that existed before the arrival of Islam? Don't you people find it odd that the whole family tree starts with the arrival of Islam i.e. Qais Abdr Rashid met the Prophet and from him comes all the Pukhtoons? This means only one thing, that the Sajra-e-Afghan is a recent fabrication. It is full of inconsistencies. So to say that there aren't any Hindu kakar forefathers in the linage, thus these Hindus can't be original Pukhtoons, is absurd.

          Even today Pukhtoons/Afghans go by one name. They don't apply the last names, or identifications of origin like places or regions. These things were introduced with Islam. Muhammad bint Abdullah bint Meccan etc.

          Just like today many Europeans claim that they are Natives of Americas i.e. North and South American Indios, the descendants of Islamic expansionists, whether Turks, Arabs, or Persians claim to be original Pukhtoons or Afghans (Bani-Israeli) based on linages they created themselves.

          More research needs to be done on this subject matter.
          barakzai wror is right i was discussing what our familes have collected since islam began like my own so i know my lineage is all muslim up to gharghast, but before islam large majority were following zoroastrian which was a very large religion in that area which was called ariana at that time hinduism was there but very small amount of it and jewdism again very small minority,now what i do know from my own father is that at that time caste system did exist but in a very different form upper class were very racists people the racism finisnished with islams arrival but as barakzai abdali wror said the main point is if there was a hindu it would show up in the distrubution of land and after talking to my father and other members back home there is nothing that shows hindus own any land so thats the mystery so now all that can happen is the kakar hindu who said hes from kandahar can maybe shed some light on this as our families can't find nothing at all, so hope he replys .
          Last edited by Guest; 12-19-2010, 07:09 PM.

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          • #65
            I agree with Kakargirl Khor on what might have been religion of Pashtuns...Zorostrian, Pagans, Hindus, etc.

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            • #66
              [QUOTE=hindupashtun;264758]I am a Kakar from Kandahar and I am a Hindu.[QUOTE] kakar we need you to shed some light on this only you can tell us what you know or what your family history says .

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              • #67
                Kakargirl Khorai, my family history can be traced back to 13th or 14th Century only...There were two brothers by the names of Sultan Bahram and Sultan Pakhal petty sultans ruling the area from Ningarhar-Laghman to Kashmir...Both were sons of Sultan Kihjaman...who were the descendents of Sultan Hinda ...and this goes back to one Sultan Sikandar Zul Qarnain (may be Alexander )...the last Sultan in our family line was Sultan Qiran....who was unseated by Amir Taimur (1398AD).

                So, I can't figure out what was their religion before Islam...I think the names indicate they were Zorostrian...But that is only a speculation....

                I think some of the easternly Pashtuns i.e., the Karlanris might be Hindus and Pagans...the westernly one might be Zorostrian....there might also be nwar parast...But again one can say nothing with certainty...

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Toramana View Post
                  Kakargirl Khorai, my family history can be traced back to 13th or 14th Century only...There were two brothers by the names of Sultan Bahram and Sultan Pakhal petty sultans ruling the area from Ningarhar-Laghman to Kashmir...Both were sons of Sultan Kihjaman...who were the descendents of Sultan Hinda ...and this goes back to one Sultan Sikandar Zul Qarnain (may be Alexander )...the last Sultan in our family line was Sultan Qiran....who was unseated by Amir Taimur (1398AD).

                  So, I can't figure out what was their religion before Islam...I think the names indicate they were Zorostrian...But that is only a speculation....

                  I think some of the easternly Pashtuns i.e., the Karlanris might be Hindus and Pagans...the westernly one might be Zorostrian....there might also be nwar parast...But again one can say nothing with certainty...
                  wrora most of them before islam followed zoroastrianism thats why alexander felt connectted in this area where he was weakened kalash people follow a religion even now that comes under zoroastrian so your right.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Toramana View Post
                    I think some of the easternly Pashtuns i.e., the Karlanris might be Hindus and Pagans...the westernly one might be Zorostrian....there might also be nwar parast...But again one can say nothing with certainty...
                    It is said by speculated that many Karlanris were predominantly Buddhist prior to becoming Muslim, but I wouldn't be surprised if a number of them were Hindu too. After all, the Karlanri tribes have been in the same region since before Alexander paid them to pass through Khyber with his armies. It is all documented in the Indica by Herodotus.

                    Sorry for going off topic.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Toramana View Post
                      I don't think your speculation will stand the testimony of historical record. The term "Afghan" was mentioned in Hudul-Alam (10th century) in reference to a village "Soul" said by later historians to be east of Ghazni, in Gardez. Hudul-Alam says, it is inhabited by Afghans. Al-Bairuni, writes, in his Tarikhul-Hind that various tribes of Afghans lived in the mountains west of India, which is precisely the present location where Pashtuns live. Al-Bairuni says, they were savage people and describes them as Hindus.

                      Even before that, Tshusan Song, the Chinese Bhudist monk, travelling in the area in 7th Century mentions a people "Apo-Kain", which some historians think is the deformation of the the name of Afghans.

                      This is apart from other references to Afghans in later historical accounts.

                      If Afghans weren't Pashtun, how the name came to specifically designate Pashtuns? Was it coincidence that almost all references to Afghans and their location match with the areas they now inhabit and their desciption?


                      See the following link.

                      http://books.google.com/books?id=9kf...page&q&f=false

                      After briefly perusing the link you presented to me; I don't see how it trumps my speculation; in fact it affirms it. It even asks the same question that is implicit in my writing

                      ; "And are Pashtuns originally identical with the Afghans?"; the author, Vogelsang writes.

                      It's not ironic that in the same book you're citing it speaks of Pashtoons not originally inhabiting those regions but migrating to them at a later date; saying "Mountains West of India" is NOT very precisely by a long shot.

                      That's like saying that Americans live in a country West of Russia!!! (by the way this is a Fallacy of Composition).

                      There are quite a few plausible reasons why the name became eventually identified with Pashtuns; For example certain accounts one type of peoples became mistaken as those same people for the same reason you're assuming that because Pashtuns now inhabit Eastern Afghanistan, that means they always did.

                      Vogelsang's own words indicate that the historical identification of Afghan to Pashtoon is very liquid.

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                      • #71
                        as far as I know my father is a Ghilzai Pashtoon from Afghanistan. our Bar Khel is Hotak and our Lar Khel is Sakzai.

                        My mom is from a Middle Eastern country but her culture is also tribal.

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                        • #72
                          Which Middle Eastern country, if I may ask? Curious.

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                          • #73
                            my mother is of Yemeni origin

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                            • #74
                              hindupashtun you in this face

                              Originally posted by Toramana View Post
                              Kakargirl Khorai, my family history can be traced back to 13th or 14th Century only...There were two brothers by the names of Sultan Bahram and Sultan Pakhal petty sultans ruling the area from Ningarhar-Laghman to Kashmir...Both were sons of Sultan Kihjaman...who were the descendents of Sultan Hinda ...and this goes back to one Sultan Sikandar Zul Qarnain (may be Alexander )...the last Sultan in our family line was Sultan Qiran....who was unseated by Amir Taimur (1398AD).

                              So, I can't figure out what was their religion before Islam...I think the names indicate they were Zorostrian...But that is only a speculation....

                              I think some of the easternly Pashtuns i.e., the Karlanris might be Hindus and Pagans...the westernly one might be Zorostrian....there might also be nwar parast...But again one can say nothing with certainty...

                              why didn't used your id you were fearing and coming through this id so that you can say anything so thats why i asked your religion, i know no muslim or pashtun will talk like this, no problem

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                              • #75
                                this toramana is the same hindupashtun maybe jasmine also

                                Originally posted by kakargirl View Post
                                wrora most of them before islam followed zoroastrianism thats why alexander felt connectted in this area where he was weakened kalash people follow a religion even now that comes under zoroastrian so your right.
                                whom you are asking he is the same person who claims to be hindu pashtun kakar, and is an employee of pashtunforums, i had talk with the adminkhan and he said that he is an employee there, so he is coming through different ID'S maybe his real face is in the ID of sahil i don't know, because from all these ID'S i found they are praising hinduism and attacking Islam and pashtuns

                                I dont know if this forum is run by any hindu groups, by hijacking the name and culture of pashtuns, they may be trying to confuse innocent pashtuns,

                                Beware there are many plots hatched against Islam and pashtuns, i think this is one of them and the other sites related with it

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