kakar pashtuns tribe hindu members

[Lemar]

sorry by the way you are talking you does not seem to be a muslim, why because you are saying that "pashtuns were forced into islam" a very offending remark on islam, no one forced anyone for islam on anybody, since it was a religion of truth peoples and ccommunities followed, if by chance Islam were to be forced than from france to burma(myanmar) there would have been not even a non muslim(kafir) in India the muslims ruled but never forced the people to become muslim if the muslim rulers have given 5% interest to make the people muslim then India would have been a muslim country, they were mostly interested in ruling not interested with indian race,
during islamic invasion of iran when the people were interested to embrace islam, those muslims rulers who were just interested in jaziya tax does not wanted people to become muslims but rather were interested to collect jaziya tax from them.

I don't know how many jat/khatri hindus with kakkar family name are there in afghanistan or pakistan, but they are not pashtun kakars, don't impose jat/khatri hindus on pashtun kakars, please dont force them to accept.

"Our Pashtun culture is older than the Quran itself" this reflects point of yours which again condemns Islam, and now directly attacking the quran which is our holy book. first understand pashtun are a race community which we are proud of next Islam is our religion which is more important then being a pashtun or not and quran is our holy book which you cannot find its contemporary in this whole universe, our culture was based on what religion before islam is different, because we pashtun were good people so thats we accepted Islam which was a truth no one can find in this world nor till the end of this world. Please dont confuse us say proudly yourself that you are a non-muslim or an uneducated illitrate muslim

Dude open you are eyes go read some history!
of course we were forced to be converted to Islam either by putting extra tax on us or by force!
India was in a totally different era! go learn history!

Our Pashtun culture is older than the Quran itself

the above comment is a FACT! we are Muslim now but we just can not have a blind eye on our history before Islam.
Even Islam doesnt say so, prophet Mohammad's (PBUH) family werent muslims as well but there is no shame in that!
Please get over this idea that a Pashtun can only be a muslim!
he/she can be into any faith or into no faith at all.

[hassanzai]

Dude open you are eyes go read some history!
of course we were forced to be converted to Islam either by putting extra tax on us or by force!
India was in a totally different era! go learn history!

the above comment is a FACT! we are Muslim now but we just can not have a blind eye on our history before Islam.
Even Islam doesnt say so, prophet Mohammad's (PBUH) family werent muslims as well but there is no shame in that!
Please get over this idea that a Pashtun can only be a muslim!
he/she can be into any faith or into no faith at all.

Assalam-alaikum

see if you think your family was forced way back when they embraced Islam, then why you are angry you can revert back to the religion your ancestors were forced, you think anyone still forcing to be a muslim, and be brother to a hindu pathan who also posted in this thread. Islam never forces anyone to become a muslim if you think so then you should leave why to be a part of Islam when you thinks then Islam was forced on your ancestors whoever thinks this they are now not being forced they can leave Islam, Because Islam does not like people who are selfish, because only of Islam pashtuns got an identity in this world, nor check history do you find any mention of Pashtuns or afghans or pathans before Islam came to afghans or pashtuns or pathans find any reference, selfish people are there or someone else in the veil only Allah knows better

[Michin Khel]

According to pashtuniyat, a hindu and sikh can not be a pashtun. They live as hamsayas not as equals in pashtun society.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Firstly before this discussion can go any further

how does one define Pashtun? Being descendant by lineage from one of the tribes? Or.....anyone who can speak Pashto?

From what is known there are Pashto speaking Sikhs and Hindus but there are no actual "Pashtun Sikhs and Hindus"; at least in 2010, what Pashtuns were in 500 A.D. is irrelevant. As Jasmine says, it's true that there could be Pashtuns who have taken an affinity for Hinduism or Sikhism, but your claim is speculative and hearsay at best in so much as actual examples are concerned. Furthermore Hinduism is not a religion you can convert to, it is hereditary, hence the Caste System. Although Sikhs do not have a caste system per say, the last names of Sikhs who are not recent converts are typical Punjabi Caste names, indicating Punjabi origins.

I would like the input of the last several posters

namely

Jasmine
Kakargirl

[Toramana]

Firstly before this discussion can go any further

how does one define Pashtun? Being descendant by lineage from one of the tribes? Or.....anyone who can speak Pashto?

From what is known there are Pashto speaking Sikhs and Hindus but there are no actual "Pashtun Sikhs and Hindus"; at least in 2010, what Pashtuns were in 500 A.D. is irrelevant. As Jasmine says, it's true that there could be Pashtuns who have taken an affinity for Hinduism or Sikhism, but your claim is speculative and hearsay at best in so much as actual examples are concerned. Furthermore Hinduism is not a religion you can convert to, it is hereditary, hence the Caste System. Although Sikhs do not have a caste system per say, the last names of Sikhs who are not recent converts are typical Punjabi Caste names, indicating Punjabi origins.

I would like the input of the last several posters

namely

Jasmine
Kakargirl

The situation is fluid. Whereas in mountains and remote areas immersed in aggrarian-feudal/tribal life style, the old-lineage based definition of Pashtun identity that is associated with heriditory rights and land-ownership as Wrayun mentioned is still employed, in the plain areas and urban centers Pashtuns are becoming increasingly unconcerned about their tribal backgrounds at least in daily interaction. This trend is the most conspicuous in Yousazfais and other neighbouring/allied Pashtuns.

I think there is a transitional and transformational phenomenon going on in Pashtuns of Peshawar Valley corresponding to the social change in them brought about by a rising literacy rate, urbanization, etc.

As for the relevance or irrelevance of pre-Islamist history of Pashtuns, Pashtun history cannot be simply reduced to few hubdred years of Islamist era although those that are desperate to realise their notion of Muslim unity would like to highlight only the part of Pashtun history related to the Muslim era. Pre-Islamist traditions and culture are as much a part of our identity as those of the Islamist era. Gone are the days of Muslim imperialism when political power and influence depended on association with a Muslim identity. We have to link with global community where creed and tribal-based affiliations are becoming irrelevant.

There is also good amount of historical information that indicate, there were Pashtuns even in 11th Century who were not Muslims and possibly professed Hinduism (or other pagan beliefs). It seems for four hundred years, from the era of Safarids(?) till Mahmoud of Ghazna, Pashtuns vehemently resisted Arab incursion on their life-style and freedom. It was only in 11th Century that a mass-conversion to Islam occurred in Pashtuns after they realised the usefulness of Islamist ideology and Jehad in grabbing land and other resources and acquiring wealth and status (status as ghazi or shaheed/martyre, reward in Jannah, jehad spolils in this world---mal-i-ghanimat, captive women, slaves, ..). In fact, the kind of incentive to general masses for the reward in the world here and the one hereafter might have lured Pashtuns to the fold of Islam on a popular level .

It is also possibly wrong to consider Hinduism as a non-prozeltyzing religion tied to an ethnicity, etc. If that were the case, there wouldn't have been the multitude of ethicities and language groups professing Hindu-religion. Most probably, the cast-based system was more linked to distribution of work and power although with religious sanctification. But then again, Hinduism is a flexible religion fast adopting to the realities of today.

[Lemar]

Assalam-alaikum

see if you think your family was forced way back when they embraced Islam, then why you are angry you can revert back to the religion your ancestors were forced, you think anyone still forcing to be a muslim, and be brother to a hindu pathan who also posted in this thread. Islam never forces anyone to become a muslim if you think so then you should leave why to be a part of Islam when you thinks then Islam was forced on your ancestors whoever thinks this they are now not being forced they can leave Islam, Because Islam does not like people who are selfish, because only of Islam pashtuns got an identity in this world, nor check history do you find any mention of Pashtuns or afghans or pathans before Islam came to afghans or pashtuns or pathans find any reference, selfish people are there or someone else in the veil only Allah knows better

Can you actually read what I wrote?
First of all, I debated you according to history and most of our ancestors were forced to convert to Islam, its a fact and as I told you before, please get a history book and read it.
Secondly, where did I mention that I am not a Muslim now?
People like you really pisses me off, you dont actually read the post and accuse me of not being a Muslim and that I am not happy with my religion! wtf can you even read?
LOL so we just miraculously came into this world after Islam? that doesnt make sense!
I tell you again please go and read history then you will know we have been here for far longer than you might have ever think of.

[sahil112]

pashtunwali existed before islam and then we converted to islam along the way
that is why there is that saying i am pashtun before i am a muslim ( well i have heard it dont no bout you lot oh lol )

[kakargirl]

I think Kakar girl is generally right in this regard and knows her kabaa'eel lineages. Simply having the last name does not gaurantee that one of these hindus is actually a Kakar tribal descendent. Think of the various folks in India that utilize the last name Lodhi or Durrani and actually admit that their surnames come from serving the military regiments that the Afghan invaders sent there. Think also of the fact that the word "malik" comes from arabic, but there are thousands of hindus with the surname malik.

Also, some of the tribal names repeat within subgroups. For example, there are Barakzai Durranis/Abdalis, and Barakzai Kakars, and even Barakzais in the NWFP region.

I think little if no textual evidence exists to support any lineage of the sons of Dani leaving Islam. If someone incidentally leaves Islam later on, that doesnt provide evidence that the original tribal ancestors or maliks were non muslim and that the lineage continued.

The other clue is where tribal lands are for each group. For example, we have lands near Sher e surkh that the Popalzai gave us and you can actually trace back descendents and cousins etc. according to whose land is next to yours. The Wazirs and Mehsuds have a similar system. This is one reason why pashtoons love to say Zar, Zamin, Zan and never want to sell their land unless absolutely necessary. It provides a link to the rest of the tribe. If any of the Kakar elders had a hindu or nonmuslim their child, we would have seen this show up in the way that their tribal lands around Kandahar are arranged. After all, no rural Pashtoon will ever leave inheritence to a child if they willingly leave Islam, per the injunctions in the Quran. That doesnt mean that someone cannot take the land by force, but in general I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a strip of land owned by any Kakar hindu that allowed us to link him to other Kakars based on his nassl (line of ascent).

wrora you are a intelligent man you put every word in this post perfectly every thing you said exists in our lineages land being the big clue high class familys own large amounts of land and your right i asked my father too it would show up in land registery papers if anything like that happened then the shajjrahs , wrora its easy to know back home who is who and you put it perfectly in your post i agree with every word you wrote land documents can be traced very back and yes they love their land and wouldnt sell it even if they were desperate and had no choice until they couldnt find a another way out of the situation then they would sell but a very tiny bit and usually it would upset them and the other tradition they usually try to sell the land on the same tribe lineages people they are connectted to so the land dosn't go out no where to anyone else thank you wrora .

[BarakzaiAbdali]

wrora you are a intelligent man you put every word in this post perfectly every thing you said exists in our lineages land being the big clue high class familys own large amounts of land and your right i asked my father too it would show up in land registery papers if anything like that happened then the shajjrahs , wrora its easy to know back home who is who and you put it perfectly in your post i agree with every word you wrote land documents can be traced very back and yes they love their land and wouldnt sell it even if they were desperate and had no choice until they couldnt find a another way out of the situation then they would sell but a very tiny bit and usually it would upset them and the other tradition they usually try to sell the land on the same tribe lineages people they are connectted to so the land dosn't go out no where to anyone else thank you wrora .

No need to thank me. Its the duty of every Kandahari to recognize the contributions and honor and defend the Kakars. After all, Mir Wais Neka set the stage for Gurgin's death but it was a Kakar that actually did the brave deed of fighting and then killing that oppressor, I believe. We all owe our subsequent independence from Safavid oppression to the bravey of the Kakars who fought in the front lines of Mir Wais Neka and his sons' armies.

[kakargirl]

barakzai abdali wrora you come up with good points true facts in our lineages,your a very educated man with strong points and the land one well that is a real strong points everything is connectted to land through owner ship of land you can find out so much iv seen my fathers documents some of the papers now are so old and yellowish in colour and go back a couple of hundred years and i thank you for that as i look up to you wrora and respect you and you posted the most strongest point .

[Wrayun]

You guys are making some grave mistakes when addressing Pukhtoon history, linage, and heritage.

The concept of Sajra, Nasil (both Arabic words and concepts) and linage didn't exist before the arrival of Islam midst Pukhtoons. Is there a family tree that existed before the arrival of Islam? Don't you people find it odd that the whole family tree starts with the arrival of Islam i.e. Qais Abdr Rashid met the Prophet and from him comes all the Pukhtoons? This means only one thing, that the Sajra-e-Afghan is a recent fabrication. It is full of inconsistencies. So to say that there aren't any Hindu kakar forefathers in the linage, thus these Hindus can't be original Pukhtoons, is absurd.

Even today Pukhtoons/Afghans go by one name. They don't apply the last names, or identifications of origin like places or regions. These things were introduced with Islam. Muhammad bint Abdullah bint Meccan etc.

Just like today many Europeans claim that they are Natives of Americas i.e. North and South American Indios, the descendants of Islamic expansionists, whether Turks, Arabs, or Persians claim to be original Pukhtoons or Afghans (Bani-Israeli) based on linages they created themselves.

More research needs to be done on this subject matter.

[ScimitarXEdge]

The Concept of Shajarah and Nasil didn't exist before the arrival of Islam?

What information do you have regarding Pashtoons prior to Islam; much of Pashtoon identity is shrouded in mystery, there are references from Pre-Islamic antiquity which are very vague, but nothing detailed and fulfilling intellectually.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

You guys are making some grave mistakes when addressing Pukhtoon history, linage, and heritage.

The concept of Sajra, Nasil (both Arabic words and concepts) and linage didn't exist before the arrival of Islam midst Pukhtoons. Is there a family tree that existed before the arrival of Islam? Don't you people find it odd that the whole family tree starts with the arrival of Islam i.e. Qais Abdr Rashid met the Prophet and from him comes all the Pukhtoons? This means only one thing, that the Sajra-e-Afghan is a recent fabrication. It is full of inconsistencies. So to say that there aren't any Hindu kakar forefathers in the linage, thus these Hindus can't be original Pukhtoons, is absurd.

Even today Pukhtoons/Afghans go by one name. They don't apply the last names, or identifications of origin like places or regions. These things were introduced with Islam. Muhammad bint Abdullah bint Meccan etc.

Just like today many Europeans claim that they are Natives of Americas i.e. North and South American Indios, the descendants of Islamic expansionists, whether Turks, Arabs, or Persians claim to be original Pukhtoons or Afghans (Bani-Israeli) based on linages they created themselves.

More research needs to be done on this subject matter.

I do not disagree that the general gist of what you wrote. I think kakar girl was discussing this within the confines of the general history pashtoons believe to have collected since about the time of Malik Saddo. I think that some of the trees have a basis in the land organizations I spoke up. For instance, in my father in laws area of Waziristan land and who it is next to is paramount to identifying your nearest relatives, but large tracts of land were seized in skirmishes with other pashtuns.

Also based on the hill tribes (Wazir and Mehsed) and their identification with the general common ancestor, and their tie in with the common ancestors of unrelated tribes like the Durrani, there may be some evidence to at least assume that a tribal heirarchy that was somewhat nebulous and in flux did in fact serve as an important element of pashtoon identity as early as the 1500s.

Further DNA testing from tribal maliks/khans (of individual claans) who maintain some semblance of a record needs to be examined alongside the family trees of record. Local samples also would need to obtained to determine just how much of the local populace under a malik (where that still exists) relates to the tribe itself.

The constant rivalry between the Khiljyaan and Abdalyaan/Durranyaan where we hail from has quiet a bit of historical documentation in the terms of for example Ahmad Khan (later to be Shah) was son of so and so and so on and so forth to Malik Sado himself.

However, I do agree with you that the historical information ought to be studied alongside DNA tests.

Finally, I think that the general area that the Kakaraan and Durranyaan find themselves in, and the way that their lands are organized around Kandahar, still supports the notion that various sikhs or hindus that here and there refer to themselves with these titles are not some preserved off shoot of a group of kakaraan that never converted to Islam. Instead, I think that it is a safe hypothesis to say that nearly every kakar that has a close link to the actual tribe, and that were DNA to verify that link, has not had a hindu ancestor for a long long time.

[ScimitarXEdge]

The situation is fluid. Whereas in mountains and remote areas immersed in aggrarian-feudal/tribal life style, the old-lineage based definition of Pashtun identity that is associated with heriditory rights and land-ownership as Wrayun mentioned is still employed, in the plain areas and urban centers Pashtuns are becoming increasingly unconcerned about their tribal backgrounds at least in daily interaction. This trend is the most conspicuous in Yousazfais and other neighbouring/allied Pashtuns.

I think there is a transitional and transformational phenomenon going on in Pashtuns of Peshawar Valley corresponding to the social change in them brought about by a rising literacy rate, urbanization, etc.

As for the relevance or irrelevance of pre-Islamist history of Pashtuns, Pashtun history cannot be simply reduced to few hubdred years of Islamist era although those that are desperate to realise their notion of Muslim unity would like to highlight only the part of Pashtun history related to the Muslim era. Pre-Islamist traditions and culture are as much a part of our identity as those of the Islamist era. Gone are the days of Muslim imperialism when political power and influence depended on association with a Muslim identity. We have to link with global community where creed and tribal-based affiliations are becoming irrelevant.

There is also good amount of historical information that indicate, there were Pashtuns even in 11th Century who were not Muslims and possibly professed Hinduism (or other pagan beliefs). It seems for four hundred years, from the era of Safarids(?) till Mahmoud of Ghazna, Pashtuns vehemently resisted Arab incursion on their life-style and freedom. It was only in 11th Century that a mass-conversion to Islam occurred in Pashtuns after they realised the usefulness of Islamist ideology and Jehad in grabbing land and other resources and acquiring wealth and status (status as ghazi or shaheed/martyre, reward in Jannah, jehad spolils in this world---mal-i-ghanimat, captive women, slaves, ..). In fact, the kind of incentive to general masses for the reward in the world here and the one hereafter might have lured Pashtuns to the fold of Islam on a popular level .

It is also possibly wrong to consider Hinduism as a non-prozeltyzing religion tied to an ethnicity, etc. If that were the case, there wouldn't have been the multitude of ethicities and language groups professing Hindu-religion. Most probably, the cast-based system was more linked to distribution of work and power although with religious sanctification. But then again, Hinduism is a flexible religion fast adopting to the realities of today.

Firstly
There's no such thing as Muslim Imperialism; this is a European Imperialism lie created by Modern Orientalists used to validate European Hegemony on one hand and to illegitimately strive to discredit Islam on the other as a way of implanting European Hegemony. Mind you I am using the Samuel Huntington concept of European as North America is the cultural inheritor of European Imperialism.

Secondly; It is irrelevant to the context of the discussion; what Pashtoons may have been 2000 years ago, is not a bearing on whether or not Pashtoons in the current age have Ethnic Members who are from Sikh or Hindu upbringings. Contemporary Sikhs and Hindus who speak Pashto are unanimously of Punjabi/Multani origins, with no actual verifiable examples otherwise.

Thirdly, the historical information we have about Pashtoons is so ambiguous and based on circumstantial hearsay it's hard to really know who's being referred to. But let's assume your claim is true, albeit we all know that it's merely warped European slant to serve the Capitalist Neo-Colonial Geopolitical Agenda in Contemporary Times. The fact that Non-Muslims of regions conquered by Muslims had still remained as they were and only over time became Muslims only demonstrates that such a claim has no merit. Although I personally wish it did, the Pagan Cultures of Pre-Islamic times were totally morally degenerate on par with the dysfunctional capitalist cultures; to claim such a thing as "freedom" is total *******ization of the word and meaning. This is what American Military Propaganda Machine strives to use as a smokescreen for its own corrupt incursions. In summary, the claim is simply an attempt at European projection which some more gullible Easterners who have acquired an inferiority complex have taken to heart.

Hinduism isn't a proselytizing religion; the idea of different ethnicities being known as Hindu is not of any consequence since they all subscribe to what's called "Arya Varna" and believe that certain groups were descended from the invading Hordes from the North, namely Brahmins and Kshatriyas. Other groups were Native Dravidian or Australoid Inhabitants populating the lower castes. It is not coincidence that the entire caste system was based on racial/ethnic stratification and this was done even from the early times. Many argue that Caste is not emphasized in the Vedas, but Vedas were primarily Theosophical books rather than social laws. The Bhagavad Gita, probably the most profound book of guidance for Hindus, contains immense value in regards to the effect of the caste system.

It is claimed that Hinduism is a "flexible religion" by some more contemporary representatives; but one has to ask is it because of the teachings of Hinduism that it appears more universal or "flexible" as some say or did they decide to discard they realized their belief system was completely asinine and needed a facelift or the more probable case scenario; That Indian culture has for centuries been inculcated with a mentality of being subservient to Foreign Conquer, most specifically to European Colonialism and instead of standing up for what they Believe......merely bowed down to imitate the beliefs of their former colonizers regardless of whether the colonizers beliefs were right or wrong, since it's so indoctrinated and ingrained in South Asian culture, particularly that of the Hindu to view the "Light Skinned Europeans" as True Aryans, which the Hindus want so badly to connect with and gain their acceptance. With that said, this doesn't demonstrate that Hinduism is more likely a flexible proselytizing religion, but just indoctrinated cowardice; something uncomely to the virile and diligent nature of the Pashtoon; who have through might and main have shown historical evidence of what they have come to realize for themselves as Truth. Let's not confuse New Agey Deepak Chopra Philosophy that draws on Vedic Theosophy with actual Hinduism; two different things entirely.

The entire "bribe of houris and worldly delight" that orientalists fashion towards Islam is but superficial misrepresentation when examining the oceans breadth of Islamic Spirituality which transcends beyond this; further evident that Islamic Spirituality plays a strong role in the life of the Pashtoon by the prominence of Sufi Traditions amidst the Pashtoons. Despite their warrior inclinations; they were Warrior Mystics as we can see from the writings of Abdul Hamid and Rahman Baba. Even if we say that Pashtoons were not Muslim by a large margin until the 11th century; a point I am willing to grant, they definitely were strongly inclined towards it by nature of their own cultural background. Furthermore if we take the people mentioned in Ghaznawiyan era chronicles as specifically referring to Pashtoons, then similarly we can claim the Ghorids as somehow connecting to Pashtoons as well, and they were definitely Muslims. Which in that case, places the entrenchment of Islam amongst the Pashtoons at a much earlier date than the 11th Century.

[Wrayun]

The Concept of Shajarah and Nasil didn't exist before the arrival of Islam?

What information do you have regarding Pashtoons prior to Islam; much of Pashtoon identity is shrouded in mystery, there are references from Pre-Islamic antiquity which are very vague, but nothing detailed and fulfilling intellectually.

Sajra and Nasil are both Arabic words, do you have Pukhto substitutes? I'd be interested to know. I'd also like to know if there is evidence of an original Pukhto script.

The only other system that was in place in the region was that of the Hindus i.e. the Brahmin, Kashtriya, Vaishya, Shudra and Dalit based system. So if indeed there was one, then it would have had to be this system. Which explains the current divisions of classes within Pukhtoon society i.e. you have the Mullah, Phir, Sadat, Shiekh, Akhud, Agha types that are Brahmins, you have the Tribals who are the Kashritya warrior type, and then you castes like daman, kharkars, karigars, nayans, chowari etc. who are Vaishya.

Before the Sajra-e-Afghan, we don't have anything else that connects these tribes through linage with each other. We obviously can't believe that these tribes just sprouted out of no where 1500 years ago. So they had have to have existed prior to Islam, with their own unique religions and languages. There is plenty of evidence that some of these tribes might not have been originally Pukhto speakers, rather they were later assimilated by Pukhto speakers. This is occurring as we speak.

So Kakar Hindus, why not? Basing Pukhtoon linage on Sajra-e-Afghan is nullified by many inconsistencies within it.