All the Indians in the House - Please Discuss

[Feroza_Banu]

Salamoona ..

I am particularly intereste in knowing how Hindus in India feel about Muslims.

1. I have heard of many riots against muslims and thousands of lives lost as a result of these riots... as expected out of a Hindu majority state, the casualties of muslims are much higher in these riots than indus. I would like to know the overall impression of Muslims in India.

2. I have also seen in bollywood movies that muslims are asked to go to pakistan, because india is not their country anymore... they should be migrating to pakistan. is this true?

3. and politics aside... how do normal Hindus preceive muslims. what impression do they have.

4. What do indians feel about Pashtoons and Afghans. Do they label them as terrorists and extremists just like shown in Media?

[SinghIsKing]

Salamoona ..

I am particularly intereste in knowing how Hindus in India feel about Muslims.

1. I have heard of many riots against muslims and thousands of lives lost as a result of these riots... as expected out of a Hindu majority state, the casualties of muslims are much higher in these riots than indus. I would like to know the overall impression of Muslims in India.

2. I have also seen in bollywood movies that muslims are asked to go to pakistan, because india is not their country anymore... they should be migrating to pakistan. is this true?

3. and politics aside... how do normal Hindus preceive muslims. what impression do they have.

4. What do indians feel about Pashtoons and Afghans. Do they label them as terrorists and extremists just like shown in Media?

The Impression about muslims in India is mixed. Some People are extremely anti-muslim, but majority have good relations with Muslims. But You Know We are 1 billion for us even 1% means 10 million which is very large number for any kind of riot. In anti-muslim group in India some are very vocal(Those are the problems) and rest practice their hate in hideous manner. Shiv Sena is a party in Mumbai who told SRK to leave India for Pakistan but no body cared for him. These slogans are their lively hood. In India perception about Pashtoons in larger masses was good before due to Frontier Gandhi and impression of many bollywood movies but now it has deteriorated some how due to footages of Taliban being shown on TV.

[drona]

Feroza khor,

1. I have heard of many riots against muslims and thousands of lives lost as a result of these riots... as expected out of a Hindu majority state, the casualties of muslims are much higher in these riots than indus. I would like to know the overall impression of Muslims in India.
2. I have also seen in bollywood movies that muslims are asked to go to pakistan, because india is not their country anymore... they should be migrating to pakistan. is this true?
3. and politics aside... how do normal Hindus preceive muslims. what impression do they have.

1. To judge Hindus you must to go back to the days of Muhammad bin Qasim. He and subsequent invaders like Ghori, Ghaznavi, Abdali (one man's hero is another's villain) undoubtedly did many unspeakable crimes against Hindus (Hindu Kush). But why should be a normal Muslim judged on the basis of deeds done by these worthies hundreds of years ago ? Ideally they shouldn't. But unfortunately politics interferes with the emergence of an ideal secular society.

2. The politics started with Jinnah's/Iqbal's 2-nation theory on which Pakistan movement was based. He said Hindus/Muslims are two separate nations who can not live in harmony with each other. Few Hindu hardline politicians (but unlike Jinnah, they were not popular) also supported his position. This essentially sowed seeds of hatred between the two communities which had co-existed more-or-less peacefully for hundreds of years.

Unsurprisingly, it was the Muslims of current day India and Bangladesh (not Pakistan) who were fooled into supporting Jinnah. After Partition, most of the rich educated Muslims migrated to Pakistan, leaving behind their poorer brethren. In Pakistan, the Hindus/Sikhs were almost completely wiped out. It was the poor Muslims/Hindus/Sikhs who were mostly killed during the Partition riots. The vacuum created by absence of a rich-educated leadership was then occupied by Mullahs, who continue to enjoy certain influence amongst poor uneducated Muslims. Not every Mullah plays a negative role. But quite a few do.
Even amongst the educated, tele-Mullahs like Zakir Naik are much admired (who is from Mumbai).

3. Pakistan has also played a definite role in inciting anti-Muslim feeling amongst a certain section of Hindus. All Indo-Pak wars (48,65,71,99) were started by Pakistan. Since Muslims from UP,Bihar, played a decisive role in Pakistan's creation, some groups like Shiv Sena try to blame Muslims for everything it does. That is why the jokers like Bal Thackery ask Muslims "to go to Pakistan".

4. Between 1987-1993 about 400,000 Hindus from Kashmir Valley were ethnically cleansed by Pakistani trained terrorists. ISI has also carried out various terrorist attacks all over the country almost every year. This has contributed to rising Islamophobia amongst the Hindus which has manifested itself in Babri mosque demolition, Gujarat riots, etc.

So to answer your questions, yes there is discrimination against Muslims in India, but in a muliti-ethnic/linguistic country like India there is also discrimination between various castes/regional/linguistic groups etc. Yes, the riots of Gujarat were horrible; but no major riot has happened since then. And I can say without doubt that a normal Muslim is safer, more free in India than many Muslim countries including Pakistan.

Despite all this negativity, India's present vice-President is Hamid Ansari, previous President was APJ Kalam, one of the richest man is Azim Premji. And of course I don't need to tell you about all the Khans and AR Rahman. All Muslims. All popular in a Hindu majority country.

But that said, there is still a lot of room for improvement.

What do indians feel about Pashtoons and Afghans. Do they label them as terrorists and extremists just like shown in Media?

Every Indian is taught about Bacha Khan in his/her school textbooks as a great hero. Need I say more
But yes, Taliban has been a problem. Hope it is solved soon.

Regards,
Drona

[Maulik]

$$ List Of Top Indian Muslims.$$
List of Some of the Top Indian muslims
[s1]1. Arts
*.A. R. Rahman*.Salim Khan*.Mohammed Rafi*.Saroj Khan*.Farah Khan*.Salma Arastu*.*.Bismillah Khan*.*.Shah Rukh Khan*.Aamir Khan*.Dilip Kumar*.Naseeruddin Shah*.Salman Khan*.Shabana Azmi[/s1]
[s2]2. Sports**.Sania Mirza*.Zeeshan Ali*
.Cricket*..Mansoor Ali Khan Pataudi*.Abid Ali*.Ghulam Ahmed*.Syed Kirmani*.Arshad Ayub*.Mohammad Azharuddin*.*.Zaheer Khan*.Irfan Pathan*.Wasim Jaffer*.Munaf Patel*.Yusuf Pathan[/s2]
[s3]3. Politics Presidents of India*.Dr A.P.J. Abdul Kalam*.Fakhruddin Ali AhmedN*.Zakir Hussain
Vice-President of India*.Zakir Hussain (politician)*.Mohammad Hamid Ansari*.Muhammad Hidayatullah
Governors of the states*.Akhlaqur Rahman Kidwai*.Ali Yavar Jung*.Amin ud-din Ahmad Khan
Chief Ministers*.Abdul Rehman Antulay,Maharashtra*.Abdul Gafoor,Bihar*.Barkatullah Khan,Rajasthan*.Anowara Taimur,Assam*.C.H. Mohammed Koya,Kerala*.Ghulam Nabi Azad,J&K*.Omar Abdullah,J&K*.Syed Mir Qasim,Jammu&Kashmir*.Farooq Abdullah,Jammu&Kashmir*[/s3]
[s1]4. Military*.Abdul Hamid*.Lt. General Zameerud-din Shah*.Idris Hasan Latif*.M. A. Zaki,Lt Gen*.Brigadier Mohammad Usman*.Rajiq Khan*.Sqn Ldr Zafar Ali Shah*.Lt Hanifudeen[/s1]
[s2]5. Science*.A.P.J.Abdul Kalam*.Salim Ali*.Obaid Siddiqui*.Dr.Qaiser Baqri*.Dr. Husain ZaheerexDG CSIR*.Syed Zahoor Qasim*.Faizan Ahmad[/s2]
[s3]6. Medicine*.Dr. C.M. Habibullah*.Dr.Syed Ziaur Rahman
*.Dr. Mohammed Galib Hussain[/s3]
[s1]7. Industry and business*.Azim Premji*.Mohd.Ateeq (Chairman&Founder ARC Industries)*.Sahil Khan (CMD S.K.Group)*.Yusuf Hamied*.Mohd Arshad(Founder&CEO, Cherisys Technologies)*.Fakhruddin T. Khorakiwala*.Shahnaz Husain*.S.H.Khan, ex Chairman IDBI*.Ishaat Husain, Tatas*.M.A.Yusafali(LULU Groups)*.Muhmadali(Gulfar Group)*.K.R Malick(SRK groups*.Patel Md. YousufHijaz Leathers, Vaniyambadi
*.Dr. Mohammed Galib Hussain[/s1]
[s2]8. Civil awards*.Bharat Ratna*.Bismillah Khan*.Zakir Hussain (politician)*.Maulana Abul Kalam Azad*.A.P.J. Abdul Kalam*.[/s2]
And there are many more who contributed in to development of india. We are proud of indian muslims

[spogmai shaglay]

Good Post by Drona.....i like that you have accepted that there is discrimination done to Muslims but yes not only Muslims at this age too we have evils like caste system within Hindu community and a lot of discrimination t hat still goes on....

and a Hindu can give an overall impression on Muslims in India.....

You will find many many Khan's in India but all 90% are not Pahtoons or Afghans... i have seen families change their last name to Khan even though they dont know anything abt pashtoons and their language so the original are lost between them....


many of beautiful histrorical monuments that India is enriched with made by Muslims out of these Taj Mahal is one of the wonders of the World, Jama Masjid, Agra Fort, Red Fort (Lal Qilla), Char Minar, Qutub Minar, Golconda, Humanyun's Tomb, Fatehpur sikri and many more built by muslims....

Bollywood movies, 99% nonsense.. had played enough role to make people anti muslim... you will see almost every terrorist in a movie is a Muslim or a Khan with Shalwar and Kamees.... what are they trying to prove?????? due to a few terrorist who happen to be muslims the entire muslim community is labeled to be terrorist...why do they generalize?? there are many hindu terrosist tooo but all hindus are not labeled as terrorist, many christians toooo...................beyond my understanding...

and no we have "my name is khan".......

Riots??? dont ask i remember 1992 riots..... i was very young then but it was scary.... hearing so much about muslims being killed.....

and i have many friends who are Hindus......good people.....few parties are anti -muslims but not all.....

to tell u Feroza.....the way my colleagues respect me and my roza in Ramzan is highly appreciable.....

[drona]

spogmai,

How did it go in the region you live in Mumbai ? My mom has been calling me (from Colaba) every day since last three days urging me not to go outside University campus, in case anything "bad" happens.


SinghisKing, have you been to Old Hydrabad city area lately ?

[spogmai shaglay]

spogmai,

How did it go in the region you live in Mumbai ? My mom has been calling me (from Colaba) every day since last three days urging me not to go outside University campus, in case anything "bad" happens.


SinghisKing, have you been to Old Hydrabad city area lately ?

everything is fine Alhumdullilah... not a single case of any problem reported from anywhere.......it went absolutely fine.....just that on Thursday everything was declared to be **** down by 1:30 in the afternoon just as a precaution that is all...

people have grown up which is a good news.....

nothing bad has happened....and i work in churchgate close to colaba town as it is called , no problem there tooo....

[SinghIsKing]

spogmai,

How did it go in the region you live in Mumbai ? My mom has been calling me (from Colaba) every day since last three days urging me not to go outside University campus, in case anything "bad" happens.


SinghisKing, have you been to Old Hydrabad city area lately ?

No I haven't been going to old city are for 3 months.

[SinghIsKing]

For honest answers to those questions, Feroza Guley, you might have to go to different parts of India yourself to see it FOR yourself. Bear in mind that, oftentimes, the personal views that some of us might have against/about India and Hindus might come into play and shape our response to you. So, for instance, someone who hates India and Hindus, or at least looks down upon Hindus, might easily say, "Oh, Indians think HORRIBLY of Muslims! Hindus hate Islam and Muslims. They treat Muslims very badly." Further, a Muslim who feels like she/he does not belong in India and wishes to be in a Muslim-majority country might simply something like: I hate India. It treats Muslims SO terribly! It'd be only part of the story, not the whole or even half of the story.

So, just remember that with such things are based often on personal observations and experiences.

Now, we know that such things (riots) are rarely one-way; they're merely presented as one-sided, but they're not so in reality. In reality, in India (I'll explain how I know this in a moment), the Hindus initiate some raids against Muslims while the Muslims initiate other raids against the Hindus. Sometimes all of a sudden, some Hindu village will decide to attack some Muslims living in it, AS might some Muslim village against some Hindus there.

I am a regular customer at this gas station owned by this Hindu Indian man. That's where I get phone cards mostly. So, every time I enter, he greets me with "Salaam, bethi!" And I respond with, "Namaste, Jee!" Almost always, we stop for a conversation, and most of those are on the relationship between Hindus and Muslims in the part of India where he's from. He tells me this:

"When Hindus from outside villages would come to attack the Muslims who lived in our village, we would give them protection, buying milk and foods for them; when our turn would come, meaning when Muslims from other villages would come to attack us Hindus, they would give us protection and take care of us just like we did them."

Surely, he does not represent ALL Hindus in India, but he does represent some. And we also learn that it's a two-way struggle, not just a one-way.

Yes, perhaps you're right in saying that, since India is majority-Hindu, the Hindus might not be treated as badly by the Muslims as vice versa. That's unfortunately how the status of minorities in many countries is. But in such a case, also think of the minorities in Muslim countries. For example, many Pakistanis not only attack non-Muslims (including Hindus), but they even attack other MUSLIMS (non-Sunnis) on a constant basis!

As for your question regarding how you've been told that Muslims had to flee India because they're told it's not their country, that might be true to some extent -- but that's not ALL the truth in this situation: Muslims did, and continue doing, the exact same thing to Hindus in Pakistan, for instance. This was the deal of the day especially during the partition in 1947, when millions of lives were lost while migrating from, say, Lahore to, say, Lucknow (in the case of Hindus) or from Lucknow to Lahore (in the case of Muslims). This was perhaps THE most brutal moment in South Asian history.

So I wouldn't at ALL believe anyone who even tries to make it seem like it's all Hindus' fault or that Hindus don't treat Muslims well or that Hindus don't want Muslims in India. Muslims are no better, not just in India but in Muslim-majority countries as well.

1) You are telling about raids of HIndus on muslims and vice versa . In this you are forgetting one thing that, it is not on the basis of rligion but on the basis of village in rural India. People fight for honour of village. For ex:- if any person of village x beats/kills the person of village y, then to save honour of their village person of village y will fight with village x. in this case each and every person of village x(even muslims) will fight with village y. But generally in India a village is identified as its majority community. ie. whether the village is muslim village, brahmin village, rajput village etc.

2) At the time of Partition 90% of all muslims (muslims of present India,pakistan and bangladesh) supported pakistan movement. At that time population of hinuds in present day Pakistan was 15% and in present day bangladesh was 30%. overall it was like 23-24% . At that time population of muslim in present day India was 10.7%.
Now Hindu in Pakistan :- 1.8%
Hindu in Bangladesh :- 8.9%
Muslim in India :- 13.4%
See it yourself, you will understand the reality. Despite supporting pakistan many muslims didn't leave India which was not acceptable to hard line Hindus so naturally there will be some rift in hindus and muslims but our state provides security to every one.

3) You are in Afghanistan so I am guessing that you didn't have seen those type of muslims of India who celebrate victory of pakistan over India in cricket match. i have seen and heard from those type of muslims in India. Of course they didn't know that a hindu(Me, I am atheist but born in a Hindu Family) was also present with them at that time. Many hard-line Hindus fill betrayed to see this so they are becoming anti-muslim day by day. India have some muslim terrorist groups but it didn't have any hindu terrorist group, but now some hindu terrorist group are showing its presence here and there. However this presence in nominal and its all big leader has been arrested.

4) History is also a reason. Any Hindu can respect Islam, Sufi saints but any hindu can't respect babur, Ghazni,ghori who destroyed temples and did horrible crimes on Indian people. Like Ghori kidnapped 20000 girls from india. There are several examples of these things but some muslims of India treat those Invaders as their Hero despite that fact that all of Indian muslims are convert muslims not arabs or Turks.

So Yes there is some problem between Hindus and muslims but due to education,modernization and effect of bollywood this difference is reducing rapidly. One simple difference between India and any other Islam country.
In India any hindu man can marry muslim woman and vice versa(Both practice thier religion) without any fatwa on them which is not possible in Islamic country.
Ex:- Shahrukh Khan and Gouri Khan, Hritik Roshan and suzzene Roshan.
Shahrukh practice Islam but Gouri practice Hinduism. same with the second couple.

[KhalsaWarrior]

In my view politics, especially the votebank type is the biggest cause of divisions between Hindus and Muslims in India. One cant discount historical factors like the Muslim invasions, the vandalization of temples and religious persecutions but by and large Hindus in India hold mixed views about Muslims. One cant categorize all Hindus in India into one category.

I have met all kinds. From a hate spewing taxi-driver who proclaimed Muslims as the guests who should leave and go back to their own land (read Pakistan) to the one who is a Kashmiri pandit refugee in Delhi but still counts numerous Kashmiri Muslims as his friends. I have met a western UP Jat who hates the local Muslims' minority-subsidy driven lazy and free-boarding attitude to a Keralite Nair who regularly visits his Malabari Muslim friend's home to eat beef fry. I have met a property dealer who asked me in hush tones if I will have a Muslim roommate to a Pashtun colleague who has a Hindu Brahmin wife who makes the most delicious mutton biryani.

Really, there's no one way!

[Master Khan]

I think since that Demolition of Babri Masjid there will be always be haterd between some hindus and muslims

[drona]

I was expecting that some Pakistani will rake up the Ayodhya issue. Let's first understand the background of this dispute:

1. Lord Ram is one of the most revered deities for practicing Hindus.

2. According to Ramayana, a Hindu epic, Lord Rama was born at Ayodhya .

3. Before the destruction of Babri Mosque it was commonly believed that Babri Masjid was built after destroying a Ram temple. It was built over the temple and in fact incorporated many elements of the temple itself in its structure. ( this has been proved now)

4. Since earliest times, many documents attest to the fact that Hindus consider the Babri Masjid site as the birth place of L. Rama. Thus that particular site is
as holy to Hindus as Mecca is to Muslims. During Mughal rule, many worshiped outside the masjid, as they were denied entrance.

5. Many negotiations were conducted throughout 1980s with Muslim leaders and Hindu groups promised to move the Masjid brick-by-brick to another site as unlike Hindus, that particular place holds no special significance for Muslims.

6. However, hard line Muslim leaders and mullahs refused to negotiate.

7. Rising anti-Muslim mood amongst hardline Hindus because of domestic circumstances [ethnic cleansing of 400,000 Hindus from Kashmir Valley, appeasement of extremist Muslims by government (read Shah Bano case), dire economic situation] ultimately culminated in the demolition of the Masjid.

Regarding the judgment:
1. The judgment is about a land title dispute between the Hindu and Muslim groups, this particular case is 60 years old. There is a separate criminal suit about the demolition which is still in progress.

2. All three judges of High Court bench (2 Hindus,1 Muslim) have recognized that a destroyed temple existed on the Babri Masjid site on the basis of archaeological evidence.

3. The court has awarded 2/3 of the land to Hindus and 1/3 to Muslims.

think since that Demolition of Babri Masjid there will be always be haterd between some hindus and muslims

Most Indians (Hindus and Muslims) are fed up of this dispute and want to move on. They want better job, education, roads, etc. They also realize that they have been exploited by political parties on the basis of religious issues.
The key word in your post is "some". In my opinion, there will always be some haters. But thankfully, their numbers are very small as evidenced by the fact that there has not been a single minor riot throughout the country since the judgment was announced.

~Drona

[PFgulalai]

I think since that Demolition of Babri Masjid there will be always be haterd between some hindus and muslims

MK, you are making a very big claim here. Hatred based on religion is mostly spread for vested political interests. If muslims were in such a miserable situation in India, why are they still living in India (I believe there are more muslims in India than Pakistan?). However, Indians (both political as well as apolitical) have shown maturity by accepting the recent verdict without any communal riots.With serenity in the atmosphere, the Indian tradition of co-existence is now going into a new direction (by keeping religious sentiments personal). If I were solving this legal issue I would have declared the land as property of all Indians and would have built a hospital or university without giving it to any religious group or would have even demanded more land,lolz. Nonetheless, the verdict is sensible considering the religious sentiments of Hindus and Muslims. Hopefully, people of India will always stay calm on this issue and the opportunits would not attempt to instigate religious sentiments.

[KhalsaWarrior]

Well, talking about the judicial issues with the Babri verdict, it does undermine secularism as it uses faith to arrive at judgment. That shouldn't be a case in a secular society. There is no real archaeological proof that Lord Rama existed. Mythology talks about it so do Hindu hymns and stories. But then who can prove othewise? So is the case with the Mecca and probably Jesus' crucification.

I just hope that the Babri judgment is not seen as a victory by the nut-jobs in the Hindu-right. There are a few of them and they shouldnt be allowed to be used to question the existence of other mosques and use force. Many temples might have been destroyed by the iconoclastic invaders but then we cant start digging all suspect mosques. There's no point in rectifying historical wrongs.

[drona]

KW,

There is no real archaeological proof that Lord Rama existed

The court never sought to answer this particular question. The main contention was:

1. Whether Hindus believed that RJM was the birth place of L. Rama ? According to majority judgment the answer is yes, as proved by the written records of Hindus praying at chabootara for at least last 200 years.

2. Whether there was a grand temple beneath the mosque ? The ASI evidence conclusively proves, that yes there was a grand temple, dating back to circa 1000 B.C.

There are a few of them and they shouldnt be allowed to be used to question the existence of other mosques and use force. Many temples might have been destroyed by the iconoclastic invaders but then we cant start digging all suspect mosques.

No the fundies can't use the same argument again because THE PLACES OF WORSHIP (SPECIAL PROVISIONS) ACT, 1991 specifically prohibits such tomfoolery.
This was one time exception, as the case was already in court since 1949.

You can read the act here: THE PLACES OF WORSHIP (SPECIAL PROVISIONS) ACT 1991

Regards,
Drona