So I heard there are these Pashtun...

[Roshina]

^ Khushal, but there's divorce in Islam. Is there not? Uh-oh. Pashtunwali contradicts Islam, then, since, according to you, there's no divorce in Pashtunwali and we all know there's divorce in Islam, even if it's the last resort and is not encouraged.

Mind explaining this to support your claim better?

Moreover, why're you defining mut'ah and marriage for everyone? Why're you imposing your OWN understanding of marraige (or the understanding that has been taught to you) on everyone else?

We have a thread here on Mut'ah marriages, and it'd be appreciated if you could post your views on the matter there. The link to the thread is: http://www.pashtunforums.com/religio...at-mutah-1835/

Please bear in mind that those who initiate the topic actually have a certain agenda, a certain goal in mind -- and their views are as biased as they could get. Hence, you should not fall for everything that's fed to you and consider understanding mut'ah from some Shiite sources if possible for you.

To get an unbiased view (well, I guess it'd still be considered bias, like everything else, since it's a certain perspective, whether for or against mut'ah), you may start with a post # 16 in the said thread.

I suggest you read as many posts from that thread, both the ones that support your stance on the issue as well as those that oppose it, to better get an idea of mut'ah. It won't hurt.

And I advise this for everyone else, too, who's coming here and telling us what Shiites do and whether mut'ah is bad or good or whatever else it might be.

[Wrayun]

Mutah contradicts pashtunwali because in pahtunwali marriage is permenent, there is no divorce.

The purpose of marriage is to start a family. When you make marriage vows, that is why you are making them. You are promising to take of the woman for the rest of her life. You can not break that promise.

I know many Turi's and they do not practice Mutah, I asked them if they agree with it, they tell me absolutly not. Even the revelutionary Ayatollah Khomanie tried to outlaw Mutah in Iran, but didnt have the political suppport for it. Under Saddam Hussein in Iraq, Shias were not allowed to practice Mutah, but currently it is coming back in a big way. There are stories I here that when men have their wives pregnant, they approach poor young women and offer them money for a mutah contract.

You have a point only that divorce is not a factor because the marriage runs it's course. Divorce never happens. In mutah, parties agree upon the dowry, and settlement. Responsibility just like a normal marriage is a huge factor in the contract.

Ayatullah Khamenie:

“Temporary marriage like permanent marriage, requires a marriage contract. Moreover there is no difference between permanent marriage and temporary marriage except in some aspects of the law, such as there is no divorce in temporary marriage - it terminates with the expiration of the time period. Likewise, neither spouse in a temporary marriage inherits from the other. The temporary marriage contract is as follows: The woman says: " I marry myself to you for the specified dowry (mention the amount) and for the specified time period (mention the time period)". Then the man says: "I accept".”

Secular states should practice something like mutah...it might take care of all the baby mama/daddy dramas.

Some people say that Turis are not original Pushtuns, but the Turis I know say they are, they tell me that the Zazis and Wardak tribe is their brethren tribe. I dont know if anybody out there has any information about this.

They are Pukhtoon, just because they are Shia doesn't mean they are not Pukhtoon. They were and are accepted by the masses as Pukhtoon. Their differences in comparison to the majority of the Pukhtoons are not that great.

Most Pukhtoon bring their tribal baggage with them when it comes to their definition of a Pukhtoon. For example some don't consider Mullahs to be Pukhtoon. Why? Because usually a Mullah will come from a different tribe that had already accepted Islam. This Mullah will settle in a new region and preach Islam, and that area locals will consider this Mullah as a non-local, in other words, NOT A PUKTHOON, since he is not from our tribe. That is how all Pukhtoons think today. A very limited and narrow minded perspective. So if a Yousafzai went and settled amongst Khattaks, he is not a Pukhtoon to Khattaks, because he is not from OUR TRIBE. If a Shinwari settled amongst the Afridis, he is not a Pukhtoon, because he is not from OUR TRIBE. The same with Maseed and Wazir, and tribes of Afghanistan etc. The whole "blood" linage comes out of this mentality. To these people, Pukhtoonyat revolves around them. Just like in the old days when people thought that the sun revolves around the earth.

Pukhtoon is not a tribe, it is a nation. It is a qawm. It was a tribe long time ago, but when the very first Pukhtoons decided to spread out and assimilate, that changed. The same applies to the "Afghans". It no longer only applies to Pukhtoons, because when the state of Afghanistan was established, all the inhabitants and the subjects of that state became "AFGHANS".

[Abdul Haq]

who have this close-minded world view that if anyone who doesn't belong to their tribal sect, religious sect, social class, village etc. isn't a Pukhtoon or can't be counted as one. What are they suffering from?

In pashtunwali we can not mix religion with others like you said tribe, social class village ,, that is a misunderstanding..


.

[khushal]

You have a point only that divorce is not a factor because the marriage runs it's course. Divorce never happens. In mutah, parties agree upon the dowry, and settlement. Responsibility just like a normal marriage is a huge factor in the contract.

Ayatullah Khamenie:

“Temporary marriage like permanent marriage, requires a marriage contract. Moreover there is no difference between permanent marriage and temporary marriage except in some aspects of the law, such as there is no divorce in temporary marriage - it terminates with the expiration of the time period. Likewise, neither spouse in a temporary marriage inherits from the other. The temporary marriage contract is as follows: The woman says: " I marry myself to you for the specified dowry (mention the amount) and for the specified time period (mention the time period)". Then the man says: "I accept".”

Secular states should practice something like mutah...it might take care of all the baby mama/daddy dramas.



They are Pukhtoon, just because they are Shia doesn't mean they are not Pukhtoon. They were and are accepted by the masses as Pukhtoon. Their differences in comparison to the majority of the Pukhtoons are not that great.

Most Pukhtoon bring their tribal baggage with them when it comes to their definition of a Pukhtoon. For example some don't consider Mullahs to be Pukhtoon. Why? Because usually a Mullah will come from a different tribe that had already accepted Islam. This Mullah will settle in a new region and preach Islam, and that area locals will consider this Mullah as a non-local, in other words, NOT A PUKTHOON, since he is not from our tribe. That is how all Pukhtoons think today. A very limited and narrow minded perspective. So if a Yousafzai went and settled amongst Khattaks, he is not a Pukhtoon to Khattaks, because he is not from OUR TRIBE. If a Shinwari settled amongst the Afridis, he is not a Pukhtoon, because he is not from OUR TRIBE. The same with Maseed and Wazir, and tribes of Afghanistan etc. The whole "blood" linage comes out of this mentality. To these people, Pukhtoonyat revolves around them. Just like in the old days when people thought that the sun revolves around the earth.

Pukhtoon is not a tribe, it is a nation. It is a qawm. It was a tribe long time ago, but when the very first Pukhtoons decided to spread out and assimilate, that changed. The same applies to the "Afghans". It no longer only applies to Pukhtoons, because when the state of Afghanistan was established, all the inhabitants and the subjects of that state became "AFGHANS".

Wrayun,
What are you talking about?
Afghan and Pashtun is the same thing. There is no difference between the two. this is why the northern people of afghanistan want to change the name of afghanistan to something else because they say that the name only relates to the Pashtuns.

I have never heard of a mulah that comes from another tribe or village not called a pashtun by the locals, Pashtuns consider others that can trace their linage to a pashtun tribe and practice pashtunwali as fellow pashtuns even if they dont speak pashto. I dont know where you got that information from, but that is false. Your blood makes you pashtun.

Well divorce does happen in Mutah, it is just prearanged, because divorce is basically when marrriage ends or expires in this case, and that is against the pashtunwali code. The Turis are against the practice of Mutah because it violates the pashtunwali code.

I dont think you know the defintiion of a tribe. It means "qawm". Your saying it is not a tribe but a qawm, they mean the same thing. Pashtuns are a tribal society, it is the largest tribal society in the world. Pashtuns live by a code that is thousands of years old.

[khushal]

^ Khushal, but there's divorce in Islam. Is there not? Uh-oh. Pashtunwali contradicts Islam, then, since, according to you, there's no divorce in Pashtunwali and we all know there's divorce in Islam, even if it's the last resort and is not encouraged.

Mind explaining this to support your claim better?

Moreover, why're you defining mut'ah and marriage for everyone? Why're you imposing your OWN understanding of marraige (or the understanding that has been taught to you) on everyone else?

We have a thread here on Mut'ah marriages, and it'd be appreciated if you could post your views on the matter there. The link to the thread is: http://www.pashtunforums.com/religio...at-mutah-1835/

Please bear in mind that those who initiate the topic actually have a certain agenda, a certain goal in mind -- and their views are as biased as they could get. Hence, you should not fall for everything that's fed to you and consider understanding mut'ah from some Shiite sources if possible for you.

To get an unbiased view (well, I guess it'd still be considered bias, like everything else, since it's a certain perspective, whether for or against mut'ah), you may start with a post # 16 in the said thread.

I suggest you read as many posts from that thread, both the ones that support your stance on the issue as well as those that oppose it, to better get an idea of mut'ah. It won't hurt.

And I advise this for everyone else, too, who's coming here and telling us what Shiites do and whether mut'ah is bad or good or whatever else it might be.

Your not reading my post correctly. Reread them.
First of all Pashtunwali is not Islam, there are many things in the pashtunwali code that contradicts with the practice of Islam. Pashtunwali has been practiced by the pashtuns for thousands of years. Islam was introduced to the afghans in the 900's.

Im not imposing anything on anyone, Im just trying to explain that keeping a promise (wahda) is very important in pashtunwali. You dont have to practice it, Im trying to explain to Wrayun that the practice of Mutah contradicts the Pashtunwali code of marriage. Aslo I was explaining that Mutah marriage is not about starting a family and marriage in Pashtunwali it is about the family. Im trying to explain the differences. Its not according to me that there is no divorce in Pashtunwali, that is a fact. Are you not a pashtuna, how could you not know that.

I know many shias, and not just Turis, I know Iraqi and Iranian shias, I did not know what Mutah was until an Iranian shia explained it to me and he actually disagreed with it. truthfully I was shocked that this existed in Shia beleif. If a Sunni had told me I would have been skeptical that this was practiced by shias, thinking that maybe the sunni remarks are biased.

[unknownprince]

Khusal pretty much got my point across!!

[khushal]

Khusal pretty much got my point across!!

Zahir,
Im surprised that these pashtuns dont know anything about pashtunwali.

Another note I would like to point is that the Taliban did not give up Bin laden to the Americans was because of Pushtunwali. In Pashtunwali, when you give Saymo (refuge) to someone, you can not give him up even if your life depends on it. Study the pashtunwali code and then you will realize the reasons why the afghans have not been conquered.

[Wrayun]

Khushul,

Wrayun,
What are you talking about?
Afghan and Pashtun is the same thing. There is no difference between the two. this is why the northern people of afghanistan want to change the name of afghanistan to something else because they say that the name only relates to the Pashtuns.

No they are not, not any more. Afghan used to designate Pukhtoons only, after the implementation of the state of Afghanistan, every citizen and subject became an "Afghan" of that state. Pukhtoons are ethnic Afghans, because Afghan identity is based on the Pukhtoon ethncity, but not all Afghans are Pukhtoons today. This is why many Pukhtoons, some members here as well, want a Pukhtoonkhwa/Pukhtoonistan instead of joining a Loy Afghanistan. So the argument goes both ways. You are living in the past. Reality is different.

I have never heard of a mulah that comes from another tribe or village not called a pashtun by the locals, Pashtuns consider others that can trace their linage to a pashtun tribe and practice pashtunwali as fellow pashtuns even if they dont speak pashto. I dont know where you got that information from, but that is false. Your blood makes you pashtun.

I got that information from experience as a Pukhtoon. You over simplfy this blood ties thing. In reality it is much more complicated. Midst different khels within the same tribe people are not considered as one or family, let alone separate Pukhtoon tribes. For example, it is hard to marry a Pukhtoon woman from another tribe, even though you might be from a Pukhtoon tribe. Things might have changed now in certain areas, because modern generation are educated and they see beyond that. Though in many cases, Pukhtoons don't consider Pukhtoon from different tribe as equal as their own. They don't give out their daughters in marriage to other tribes as they are not considered part of their kinship. Pukhtoon tribes have always expelled or assimilated tribes or groups they considered inferior. There have been long standing fueds up till today. In the case of Mullahs, they are considered a caste within Pukhtoon soceity. Like Kharkars, Karigars, Daman etc. Many daman are Pukhtoon by blood, but because of their profession they are considered non-Pukhtoons. Khyaal Mohammad, Sardar Ali, Haroon Bacha, they are all Pukhtoons. Today they are admired as artists, traditionally they would be considered unworthy damans.

As for what or who is a Pukhtoon, refer to this thread:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/pashtun-culture-9/who-pashtun-5090/

Well divorce does happen in Mutah, it is just prearanged, because divorce is basically when marrriage ends or expires in this case, and that is against the pashtunwali code. The Turis are against the practice of Mutah because it violates the pashtunwali code.

Divorce is only possible when a marriage doesn't have an expiration date. That is the purpose of divorce, to get out of the long committment of a marriage. Not the same as a marriage running it's course.

What the Turis do or don't matters little in this discussion. Mutah is not a requirement for being a Shia. It is just a practice that was condoned by main stream Islam at a point which today is abolished by most.

I dont think you know the defintiion of a tribe. It means "qawm". Your saying it is not a tribe but a qawm, they mean the same thing. Pashtuns are a tribal society, it is the largest tribal society in the world. Pashtuns live by a code that is thousands of years old.

The word qawm is Arabic. It means kinsmanship or solidarity with one. Those who don't know the Pukhto word for tribe, use "qawm". Their ignorance, doesn't take away from the word true definition and intention. Qawm in general means nation, as in qawmi tarana i.e national anthem. Pukhto word for tribe is Tabar, not qawm.

As for this thousands of years old code you speak of, what are the subititutes for Ghairat and Namus in Pukhtoonwale, which are both Islamic/Arabic concepts? While you are at it, tell me how old is the word "Pashtunwali"? This word is fairly new and has an indic suffix "wali" i.e. dukanwali, kapriwali, makanwali, bazarwali etc. etc. Traditionaly the code that Pukhtoons follow is only known as "Pukhto" just like the language. Pukhto Oka as in do Pukhto, Pukhto Wagata as in win Pukhto, Pa Pukhto Osa as in live with Pukhto.

Pukhto as in the code on which Pukhtoon live is composed of Pukhtoon ethics, morals, customs which come from their cultural and religious institutions. Like Namus, Ghairat, Pardah/Satar etc. What "Pashtunwali" was thousands of years ago would be very different than "Pashtunwali" of today.

Also, the true patriarchal largest tribal society in the world are the Arabs. They have family trees known as Sajras documenting their linages as far back as Nuh, Abraham, and Adnan. Pukhtoon family tree starts with Qais, thats 1500 years ago. This family tree is also in question. Did the concept of sajra, or patriarchal linage existed amongst Afghans/Pukhtoons before the arrival of Islam? Even today many Pukhtoons and Afghans go by one name. They don't add their father or great grand father name to theirs. It would be interesting to find such a family tree that predates Islam arrival in the region.

[Wrayun]

Qrratugai and Wrayin,

Pashtuns follow Pashtunwali which is our unique culture. Mutah is something that clearly contradicts Pashtunwali and it voids everything about it.

Unless the two of you are okay with 15minute marriages and sitll proudly claim you are Pashtun. Lets not pollute our culture by blending everything in.

You are quite misinformed if you think that mutahs are about 15mins quickies.

Pukhtoons culture which you call "Pashtunwali" is a blend of Pukhtoon societal norms, values, and religious beliefs. A culture is composed of many things, including religious articles.

Case in point, you are a Sunni, this is why mutah is not part of your "Pashtunwali", but if you were a Shia, it would be very much so.

[unknownprince]

You are quite misinformed if you think that mutahs are about 15mins quickies.

Pukhtoons culture which you call "Pashtunwali" is a blend of Pukhtoon societal norms, values, and religious beliefs. A culture is composed of many things, including religious articles.

Case in point, you are a Sunni, this is why mutah is not part of your "Pashtunwali", but if you were a Shia, it would be very much so.

I have already articulated my view on the matter, and so far I have not got a reasonable argument that negates what I am saying other than "it is Islamic according to the Shiite teachings." Well of course thats the case otherwise I wouldn't be questioning how Shiism and pashtunwali contradict each other!! So it just goes to prove my point. No Sunni Pashtun is going to think that because its ok in Shiism, then one must change pashtunwali for that group of people. Pashtunwali like the Quran has remained unchanged.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Pashtunwali is what Pashtuns from Afghanistan call it, and Pakhtunwali is what Pakhtuns from Pakistan call it? I may be wrong, but this is how I understand the difference. You seem to be making a point about semantics?

[unknownprince]

For us Pashtuns, there are two things that we have maintained, and that we are supposed to maintain, and that is Islam and Pashtunwali, in that order. Don't try to pit one against the other. The reason Pashtuns accepted Islam was because it fit their culture well. I assume they realized how it made sense, and there were no conflicts. It was like a marriage made in heaven lol. So Pashtunwali and Islam go hand in hand!

[Wrayun]

Zahir,

How old are you?

[unknownprince]

Zahir,

How old are you?

Old enough to make informed decisions about religion and politics. Im in my early 20s!!! Isn't that considered a rude question bro?

How old are you?

[Wrayun]

Old enough to make informed decisions about religion and politics. Im in my early 20s!!! Isn't that considered a rude question bro?

How old are you?

Isn't it rude of you that after I and others have taken the time to explain things to you, you keep insisting that no one has answered you adequately? I just don't wish to waste my time elaborating on subjects that take many years of study and research to someone who might not be ready to accept challenges to their thought system.

You need to address the points raised instead of claiming you haven't been answered.

Pashtunwali/Pakhtunwali has nothing to do with Afghanistan or Pakistani. These difference are due to dialect and not region. "Pashtunwali" has changed and will continue to change as time goes by. It has not remained the same for thousands of years. You need to prove that by providing evidence and resources. What do you compare "Pashtunwali" of today with to make these assertions? Based on what do you make the claim that Pukhtoons accepted Islam due to its compatibility with "Pashtunwali"?

[unknownprince]

Isn't it rude of you that after I and others have taken the time to explain things to you, you keep insisting that no one has answered you adequately? I just don't wish to waste my time elaborating on subjects that take many years of study and research to someone who might not be ready to accept challenges to their thought system.

You need to address the points raised instead of claiming you haven't been answered.

Pashtunwali/Pakhtunwali has nothing to do with Afghanistan or Pakistani. These difference are due to dialect and not region. "Pashtunwali" has changed and will continue to change as time goes by. It has not remained the same for thousands of years. You need to prove that by providing evidence and resources. What do you compare "Pashtunwali" of today with to make these assertions? Based on what do you make the claim that Pukhtoons accepted Islam due to its compatibility with "Pashtunwali"?

Well that is my educated opinion? I mean they saw what Islam was about, and realized it fit in with their culture and easily accepted it. Correct me if I am wrong, but the conversion of the Pashtun tribes to Islam was not gradual, but rather immediate after Qais arrived in Afghanistan.

I fail bro, I just don't know what to say to debate the fact that you are saying mutah is legal marriage. Lets be pretty clear about it, and stop being politically correct. You very well know that people use mutah for having sexual relations with each other. The common saying as it goes is to make zinna halal. So I really don't know what else to say. I feel like I am becoming redundant.

Besides telling me that Shiite Islam permits it, and since Pashtun Shiites follow Shiite Islam, then it doesn't violate pashtunwali, well that just doesn't fit.

You are aware that Pashtunwali forbids sexual relations out of marriage. Mutah mocks marriage because they are temporary marraiges. Have you read Three Cups of Tea?

The Shiite men in the Korengal Valley regularly practice mutah with widows. Greg Moretensen talks about it in his book about how his guides would go and do mutah with the widwos despite having a wife at home. Mutah is frankly a way to enable oneself to do wrong. Like lets say I was tempted in this society to have girlfriends and such, then I would justify this by doing mutah (assuming I was Shiite). I wouldn't nor would a Shiite girl be marrying just to be soul companions of each other which I believe is the said goal of marriages, even though my scientific opinion says otherwise, but thats another debate for another time!!!