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Originally posted by Wrayun
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Khushul,
No they are not, not any more. Afghan used to designate Pukhtoons only, after the implementation of the state of Afghanistan, every citizen and subject became an "Afghan" of that state. Pukhtoons are ethnic Afghans, because Afghan identity is based on the Pukhtoon ethncity, but not all Afghans are Pukhtoons today. This is why many Pukhtoons, some members here as well, want a Pukhtoonkhwa/Pukhtoonistan instead of joining a Loy Afghanistan. So the argument goes both ways. You are living in the past. Reality is different.
I got that information from experience as a Pukhtoon. You over simplfy this blood ties thing. In reality it is much more complicated. Midst different khels within the same tribe people are not considered as one or family, let alone separate Pukhtoon tribes. For example, it is hard to marry a Pukhtoon woman from another tribe, even though you might be from a Pukhtoon tribe. Things might have changed now in certain areas, because modern generation are educated and they see beyond that. Though in many cases, Pukhtoons don't consider Pukhtoon from different tribe as equal as their own. They don't give out their daughters in marriage to other tribes as they are not considered part of their kinship. Pukhtoon tribes have always expelled or assimilated tribes or groups they considered inferior. There have been long standing fueds up till today. In the case of Mullahs, they are considered a caste within Pukhtoon soceity. Like Kharkars, Karigars, Daman etc. Many daman are Pukhtoon by blood, but because of their profession they are considered non-Pukhtoons. Khyaal Mohammad, Sardar Ali, Haroon Bacha, they are all Pukhtoons. Today they are admired as artists, traditionally they would be considered unworthy damans.
As for what or who is a Pukhtoon, refer to this thread:
Divorce is only possible when a marriage doesn't have an expiration date. That is the purpose of divorce, to get out of the long committment of a marriage. Not the same as a marriage running it's course.
What the Turis do or don't matters little in this discussion. Mutah is not a requirement for being a Shia. It is just a practice that was condoned by main stream Islam at a point which today is abolished by most.
The word qawm is Arabic. It means kinsmanship or solidarity with one. Those who don't know the Pukhto word for tribe, use "qawm". Their ignorance, doesn't take away from the word true definition and intention. Qawm in general means nation, as in qawmi tarana i.e national anthem. Pukhto word for tribe is Tabar, not qawm.
As for this thousands of years old code you speak of, what are the subititutes for Ghairat and Namus in Pukhtoonwale, which are both Islamic/Arabic concepts? While you are at it, tell me how old is the word "Pashtunwali"? This word is fairly new and has an indic suffix "wali" i.e. dukanwali, kapriwali, makanwali, bazarwali etc. etc. Traditionaly the code that Pukhtoons follow is only known as "Pukhto" just like the language. Pukhto Oka as in do Pukhto, Pukhto Wagata as in win Pukhto, Pa Pukhto Osa as in live with Pukhto.
Pukhto as in the code on which Pukhtoon live is composed of Pukhtoon ethics, morals, customs which come from their cultural and religious institutions. Like Namus, Ghairat, Pardah/Satar etc. What "Pashtunwali" was thousands of years ago would be very different than "Pashtunwali" of today.
Also, the true patriarchal largest tribal society in the world are the Arabs. They have family trees known as Sajras documenting their linages as far back as Nuh, Abraham, and Adnan. Pukhtoon family tree starts with Qais, thats 1500 years ago. This family tree is also in question. Did the concept of sajra, or patriarchal linage existed amongst Afghans/Pukhtoons before the arrival of Islam? Even today many Pukhtoons and Afghans go by one name. They don't add their father or great grand father name to theirs. It would be interesting to find such a family tree that predates Islam arrival in the region.
No they are not, not any more. Afghan used to designate Pukhtoons only, after the implementation of the state of Afghanistan, every citizen and subject became an "Afghan" of that state. Pukhtoons are ethnic Afghans, because Afghan identity is based on the Pukhtoon ethncity, but not all Afghans are Pukhtoons today. This is why many Pukhtoons, some members here as well, want a Pukhtoonkhwa/Pukhtoonistan instead of joining a Loy Afghanistan. So the argument goes both ways. You are living in the past. Reality is different.
I got that information from experience as a Pukhtoon. You over simplfy this blood ties thing. In reality it is much more complicated. Midst different khels within the same tribe people are not considered as one or family, let alone separate Pukhtoon tribes. For example, it is hard to marry a Pukhtoon woman from another tribe, even though you might be from a Pukhtoon tribe. Things might have changed now in certain areas, because modern generation are educated and they see beyond that. Though in many cases, Pukhtoons don't consider Pukhtoon from different tribe as equal as their own. They don't give out their daughters in marriage to other tribes as they are not considered part of their kinship. Pukhtoon tribes have always expelled or assimilated tribes or groups they considered inferior. There have been long standing fueds up till today. In the case of Mullahs, they are considered a caste within Pukhtoon soceity. Like Kharkars, Karigars, Daman etc. Many daman are Pukhtoon by blood, but because of their profession they are considered non-Pukhtoons. Khyaal Mohammad, Sardar Ali, Haroon Bacha, they are all Pukhtoons. Today they are admired as artists, traditionally they would be considered unworthy damans.
As for what or who is a Pukhtoon, refer to this thread:
Divorce is only possible when a marriage doesn't have an expiration date. That is the purpose of divorce, to get out of the long committment of a marriage. Not the same as a marriage running it's course.
What the Turis do or don't matters little in this discussion. Mutah is not a requirement for being a Shia. It is just a practice that was condoned by main stream Islam at a point which today is abolished by most.
The word qawm is Arabic. It means kinsmanship or solidarity with one. Those who don't know the Pukhto word for tribe, use "qawm". Their ignorance, doesn't take away from the word true definition and intention. Qawm in general means nation, as in qawmi tarana i.e national anthem. Pukhto word for tribe is Tabar, not qawm.
As for this thousands of years old code you speak of, what are the subititutes for Ghairat and Namus in Pukhtoonwale, which are both Islamic/Arabic concepts? While you are at it, tell me how old is the word "Pashtunwali"? This word is fairly new and has an indic suffix "wali" i.e. dukanwali, kapriwali, makanwali, bazarwali etc. etc. Traditionaly the code that Pukhtoons follow is only known as "Pukhto" just like the language. Pukhto Oka as in do Pukhto, Pukhto Wagata as in win Pukhto, Pa Pukhto Osa as in live with Pukhto.
Pukhto as in the code on which Pukhtoon live is composed of Pukhtoon ethics, morals, customs which come from their cultural and religious institutions. Like Namus, Ghairat, Pardah/Satar etc. What "Pashtunwali" was thousands of years ago would be very different than "Pashtunwali" of today.
Also, the true patriarchal largest tribal society in the world are the Arabs. They have family trees known as Sajras documenting their linages as far back as Nuh, Abraham, and Adnan. Pukhtoon family tree starts with Qais, thats 1500 years ago. This family tree is also in question. Did the concept of sajra, or patriarchal linage existed amongst Afghans/Pukhtoons before the arrival of Islam? Even today many Pukhtoons and Afghans go by one name. They don't add their father or great grand father name to theirs. It would be interesting to find such a family tree that predates Islam arrival in the region.
Past or present, Im sorry but you are living in your own little fantasyland. You should take a trip to northern afghanistan, the tajic and the uzbeks dont really consider themselvs as afghans even though they are afghan citizens. Just like I could have a german citizenship but I would not be a true germen, the passport would always have my ethnicity as afghan. If you look at the passport of a Pakistani pashtun, under ethnicity they put afghan. It is the same thing. You Pakistanis are the most brainwashed people I have ever met, would you please think for yourself for once. They Pakistani leaders have even brainwashed you into beleiving you are not afghan.
As far as the khels you are talking about. I know that pashtun that are ousiders from the village, they are still considered outsiders to the local people, but still a pashtun, I can consider you to be an outsider in my village by I still consider you a pashtun.. You originally said that the locals dont consider outsider pashtun as pashtun, but now your changing your stance in a manner where you want to avoid admitting you are wrong. Not admitting when you are wrong shows weakness not strength.
As far as divorce is concerned, it seems to me that you would like to change the definition of divorce. Divoce means "to cease or break association with" and thats what happens in Matah. In Ameria a child can divorce his/her parent. divorce is divorce no matter what you want to call it, it is against Pashtunwali.
I never was argueing about the name pashtunwali. We in our village call it "pakhto" and we settle all disputes through pashtunwali or "pahkto". I first heard of the term Pashtunwali in pashawar. I was only talking about the code, that it was practiced for thousands of years. Maybe it has evolved, but I doubt it has evolved much, it is extremely hard to change the pashtuns, evidence of this is they have never succumbed to any invader that wished to change their culture. We are seeing this as we speak.
You need to get a dictionary and start learning the true defintiion of words. Tribe means nation, tribe means qawm, they are all the same. You cant live your life by changing the definition of words to suit yourself.
The arabs are not the largest tribal society. there are about 250 million arabs, the vast majority have been arabized only by language but not by culture, and they all have diffferent customs and cultures, different lineages. Most of them today have broken their tribal lineage who are unable to trace their lineage to a single person. Pahtuns are the largest tribal segmentary society in the world.
Stop listening to the paskistani leaders, free yourself and do your own research.
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