Do you guys celebrate Noruz?

[marwat]

shamlawar khurrasani should stop using this forum as it is associated with pashtun which were once pagan and idol worshiper.

[marwat]

don't take this guy serious. i know he is up for experimentation like that smarty. no one can be brain dead like this. his every post is fallacious upon close observation.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

By that argument we should stop fasting since, fasting is specific to Jews and to Catholics

praying, fasting and abstaining from participation in festivals and practices specific to polytheists is prescribed I shariah. If we pray 5 times a day, we do so because we are commanded to do so in our Shariah. The Jews and christians were also ordered to do so by the shariah revealed to Musa alayhi Salam.

our prophet muhammed Sal allahu alayhi wasalam specifically ordered us not to celebrate Zoroastrian religious festivals.

we follow the teachings of our prophet because he was sent to us as a teacher. If anything of his teachings resemble anything else, it makes no difference to us.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

praying, fasting and abstaining from participation in festivals and practices specific to polytheists is prescribed I shariah. If we pray 5 times a day, we do so because we are commanded to do so in our Shariah. The Jews and christians were also ordered to do so by the shariah revealed to Musa alayhi Salam.

our prophet muhammed Sal allahu alayhi wasalam specifically ordered us not to celebrate Zoroastrian religious festivals.

we follow the teachings of our prophet because he was sent to us as a teacher. If anything of his teachings resemble anything else, it makes no difference to us.

See right there is the inconsistency of your reasoning. We do so because we're commanded. But there is no command in Zoroastrianism to celebrate Nawroz. It's just festivity they inherited culturally as apart of their values. It may have some spiritual significance for them, but we don't need to mimic that aspect to participate in Nawroz.

Nawroz is the heritage of the world, there is no overt or obvious conflict between being Muslim and Nawroz. The only conflict comes when people start splitting hairs and nitpick.

If I don't see in the Qur'an or ahadith any claim that says "Don't celebrate Nawroz", why should I entertain interpretations that try to portray Nawroz as some compromise of Islam? It's silly.

Also even then everything should be seen in its appropriate context. When the hadith was said, why it was said, what was its intended objective and so on.

[Kushan Prince]

Ghula,
The Arabs didn't celebrate it because most were nomads at the time and seasons are not important to nomads. They just count the full moons to measure time. Agricultural communities count seasons to measure time. It has nothing to do with polytheism, it has to do with survival.

In your narrow minded world, everyone has to do everything your way other wise its apostasy which itself is apostasy because you are foolishly attributing the powers of God on to yourself.

Pashtuns were also historically nomads, why would you think seasonal celebrations were important to them?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

See right there is the inconsistency of your reasoning. We do so because we're commanded. But there is no command in Zoroastrianism to celebrate Nawroz. It's just festivity they inherited culturally as apart of their values. It may have some spiritual significance for them, but we don't need to mimic that aspect to participate in Nawroz.

Nawroz is the heritage of the world, there is no overt or obvious conflict between being Muslim and Nawroz. The only conflict comes when people start splitting hairs and nitpick.

If I don't see in the Qur'an or ahadith any claim that says "Don't celebrate Nawroz", why should I entertain interpretations that try to portray Nawroz as some compromise of Islam? It's silly.

Also even then everything should be seen in its appropriate context. When the hadith was said, why it was said, what was its intended objective and so on.

Our shariah does not use zoroastrian religion and its prescriptions as basis to derive rulings from. Our shariah is based on what is written in Qur'an and what is said by Prophet Muhammed sal allahu alayhi wasalam.

The hadith which you are refering to is not ambiguous. It is a straight forward evidence of the prohibition.

If the hadith would have been ambiguous, we wouldn't have over 1000 years of scholarship where the ruling of the prohibition is recorded in various books of law, particularly in the hanafi law.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Our shariah does not use zoroastrian religion and its prescriptions as basis to derive rulings from. Our shariah is based on what is written in Qur'an and what is said by Prophet Muhammed sal allahu alayhi wasalam.

The hadith which you are refering to is not ambiguous. It is a straight forward evidence of the prohibition.

If the hadith would have been ambiguous, we wouldn't have over 1000 years of scholarship where the ruling of the prohibition is recorded in various books of law, particularly in the hanafi law.

Firstly you're on a tangent. If you re-read I said there is no overt conflict between Nawroz and Islam, you're going by the suggestion that it's a command by Zorostrianism to propagate their religious edicts. This is all assumption and merely projecting a narrow argument rather than analysis.

You haven't even cited the hadith by the way so the unambiguity as far as this discussion is concerned is inconclusive.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Firstly you're on a tangent. If you re-read I said there is no overt conflict between Nawroz and Islam, you're going by the suggestion that it's a command by Zorostrianism to propagate their religious edicts. This is all assumption and merely projecting a narrow argument rather than analysis.

You haven't even cited the hadith by the way so the unambiguity as far as this discussion is concerned is inconclusive.

The hadith and numerous other textual references were posted here years ago. I discussed the topic at length and I presented all the arguments against celebrating nawroz from an Islamic perspective.

You can use the search bar and you will find plenty to read.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

The hadith and numerous other textual references were posted here years ago. I discussed the topic at length and I presented all the arguments against celebrating nawroz from an Islamic perspective.

You can use the search bar and you will find plenty to read.

Well then it shouldn't be a problem to post the links It's not that hard, you could have done it already by now.

I think you just make broad sweeping statements because in past discussions you were left at a stand still. you're just o convinced of yourself that any evidence or analysis to the contrary you shrug off.

[tripledouble]

I spoke to a Tajik recently he said, its not pashtun holiday but adopted by some pashtuns because of Persian influence

[HalloIsBack]

By that argument we should stop fasting since, fasting is specific to Jews and to Catholics

and stop the circumcision and wearing a scarf and burqa!

[Azmal]

Shamlawar Khurasani proves Islam is nothing but Arab imperialism. You have to change your name to Arabic (Islamic) name, celebrate only Arab cultural holiday(most of then carried from per-Islamic tradition) and adopt Arabic language because it is language of Qorhan. If you don’t then you are polytheists.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Shamlawar Khurasani proves Islam is nothing but Arab imperialism. You have to change your name to Arabic (Islamic) name, celebrate only Arab cultural holiday(most of then carried from per-Islamic tradition) and adopt Arabic language because it is language of Qorhan. If you don’t then you are polytheists.

Islam is a religion which needs to be understood and practiced as it was revealed in the Qur'an and practiced by prophet Muhammed sal allahu alayhi wasalam and his companions. Certain aspects of Islam conflict with culture and preferences Arabs and non-Arabs. It is up to people who embrace Islam to decide whether they like to be fully Muslim or not.

There are many aspects of Arab culture which are un-Islamic and yet still practiced by Arabs. For example, look at tribalism and nationalism.

If you can't distinguish what is purely Arab and what is Islam from one another, you will come to such conclusions. However, this is not how we perceive our religion. We draw clear lines between what is religion and what is culture.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

There are two issues when discussing this topic:

1) Evidence basis
2) Hikmah/wisdom of discussing and applying it in these times of turmoil

I have not really seen much of either in this thread.

1) EVIDENCE BASIS

I, like many here, recall the hadith regarding the two festivals and the two consecutive days from jahiliyaah that were discussed by the Prophet as being superseded by the two separated eid. In the text of that hadith, there is no reference or wording that says people are out of the fold or that any who observe cultural traditions on those two prior days are out of the fold of Islam...

But I thought it might be wise to look into the Magians and the roots of Nawruz directly. In the lifetime of the Prophet there were documented interactions and diplomatic exchanged between Chosroe's declining empire and the Prophet's city state. We also know of Salman the Persian companion of the Prophet as another example of the intermingling/early interactions of the Muslims with Persia. A sad incident of course is the assassination of Omar by a disgruntled Persian, but it still serves as a historical example of the two people knowing something or another about eachother.

But what about the literature? What does it say specifically about Nawrooz. I talked to some folks, tried to find an exact commentary on the matter. I found two sources with similar wording, though one leaves things general and doesn't specify the Persian new year and is from Al-Bayhaqi in (Ahkaam Ahl al-Dhimmah, 1/723-724).

The one that is exact in wording goes like this:

Abdallah ibn Amr said "Whoever settles in the land of the non-Arabs and celebrates their Nawrooz and their mahrajan and imitates them until he dies in that state, shall be gathered with them on the Day of Resurrection (al Sunan al-Kubra 9/432 and Ibn Taymiyah in Al Iqtidaa 1/754)

Ironically, though Persians elevated Ali as their "protagonist-hero" against Arab Imperialism and established an Imamate for that purpose, one of the Imam Bayhaqi traditions in the Book Sunan Al Kobra reads:

With the chain of narration to Mohammed ibn Sireen who stated: Ali (RA) was given a gift for Nayrouz so he asked, “What is this?” They replied, “Oh, Leader of the Believers today is Nayrouz” so he said to them, Then make every day Fayrouz. Abu Usama (one of the narrators in the sanad) said, “Ali (RA) disliked to say Nayrouz.” The Shaykh (Imam Bayhaqi) said, “And in this we see the dislike to single out a day for this that was not set by the Shariah”

So what becomes apparent is that none of these chains terminate directly at the Prophet but its important to note that these companions were prominent, close to him, and zealous in their observation of Islam.

I personally would like to see the exact page and the Arabic from these books because I tend to want the highest quality direct evidence I can get. But assuming they are true we have to begin looking at things with an open mind.

2) WISDOM OF APPLICATION

What might be the reason, for instance, of maintaining a calendar based on the hijrat dates and periods and not permitting the ascendancy of another calender or set of holidays?

One of them might be divine decree itself as God says in the Quran:

The number of months in the sight of God is twelve (in a year) so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that God is with those who restrain themselves 9:36

I like this ayaat because it makes a point that even applies in the modern world. The dominant and ascendant calender is becoming the Gregorian calendar pretty much. All business gravitates and rotates around its dates and holidays. Not just in the Islamic world, but in Russia, China, Africa and other regions where separate cultures previously dominated and used their own calendars, globalization - business dominance by the West is becoming rooted in everything from the banking system to control of precious resources to cultural encroachment.

There is something to be said about maintaining the Islamic calendar and observing this Quran verse so as to have an economic and cultural system that can exist in tandem to vibrant competing cultures and not depend on the kharij systems. If there comes a point where the natives disagree, the problem is that the kharij can clamp down on the economic carotids and asphyxiate the brain, figuratively, of the dependent population.

3) HIKMAH/WISDOM CONTINUED

So is there a basis to what I just said above regarding cultural imperialism? I believe so. Years ago I read this paper by the wife of Zalmaay Khalilzaad after meeting her abroad:

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand...005/MR1716.pdf

She referred me to her own work.

She writes the following as a strategy and goal recomended by RAND:

Facilitate and encourage an awareness of their pre- and non-Islamic history and culture, in the media and the curricula of relevant countries (page XI summary).

Benard glosses over the massive role played by Colonialism and Interventionalists in creating this mess and tries to make it seem as if these instigators that all the surveys have shown is at the forefront in the mind of radicals and whiskey drinkers alike can just be ignored in her strategic (lack of?) finesse?

But the point is clear from her end - she understands that conglomerate empires/regions existed in the Muslim world that still have regional links that supersede borders drawn in the 1900s. If these borders and regional suzerainties are threated.... well then her and Zalmaay might be out of jobs!

However, this cause celebre of Persian nationalists and others across the globe pretty much cedes ground to the strategy of Miss Benard - and that cannot be brushed under the rug with such a document in existance.

4) HIKMAH CONTINUED CONTINUED

In times of trouble, turmoil and stress it is far more conducive to success to focus on big picture issues.

There is a hadith that goes like this

Abu Umamah (RA) saying that a young man came to the Prophet (SAW) and said, "O Messenger of Allah! Give me permission to commit Zina (unlawful sex).'' The people surrounded him and rebuked him, saying, "Stop! Stop!'' But the Prophet said, "(Come close)". The young man came to him, and he said, "(Sit down)", so he sat down. The Prophet said, "(Would you like it (unlawful sex) for your mother?)" He said, "No, by Allah, may I be ransomed for you.'' The Prophet said, "(Neither do the people like it for their mothers!)" The Prophet said, "(Would you like it for your daughter?)" He said, "No, by Allah, may I be ransomed for you.'' The Prophet said, "(Neither do the people like it for their daughters!)" The Prophet said, "(Would you like it for your sister?)" He said, "No, by Allah, may I be ransomed for you.'' The Prophet said, "(Neither do the people like it for their sisters!)" The Prophet said, "(Would you like it for your paternal aunt?)" He said, "No, by Allah, O Allah's Messenger! May I be ransomed for you.'' The Prophet said, "(Neither do the people like it for their paternal aunts!)" The Prophet said, "(Would you like it for your maternal aunt?)" He said, "No, by Allah, O Allah's Messenger! May I be ransomed for you.'' The Prophet said, "(Neither do the people like it for their maternal aunts!)" Then the Prophet put his hand on him and said, "(O Allah, forgive his sin, purify his heart and guard his chastity.)" After that the young man never paid attention to anything of that nature. [Musnad Ahmad, (Vol. 5, pg. 256) No. 22265]

or

“Had not your people been still close to the pre-Islamic period of ignorance I would have dismantled the Kaaba and would have made two doors in it; one for entrance and the other for exit”. [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 128].

These hadith shows that a wise leader deals with things not just in a literal way but also in a way that doesnt consternate or antagonize the audience he wants to bring into the light.

The point is that when addressing these issues, tis best not to play into Mrs. Benard and her husband's hands by chasing details and debates that antagonizes or alienates a large segment of society to the point of feeling that Muslims have to destroy other Muslims over such matters when large problems exist in society as a whole.

People have to bribe the right people to accomplish basic daily activities of living; people have to kow tow to killers set up as strongmen on their heads; people have to live through endemic corruption...

Attachment to vestigial ceremonies, in this time of tribulations and trials, are probably best left alone or addressed with an evidence based discussion that permits independent human beings to weigh evidences and make decisions for themselves without hurling accusations of being either jahil or wahhabist.

[marwat]

appreciate your analysis Wror Barakzai