Do you guys celebrate Noruz?

[DMXX]

Pashtuns in general were originally a non-agricultural people and were traditionally nomads who followed their flocks yearly. If we are talking about Now Ruz, then it has ties to the Zoroastrian religion which accommodates sun worship. All non-islamic holidays (even b-days) are generally noted as haram.

Zoroastrianism is a monotheistic religion. The sun and fire merely occupy symbolic roles. Identical, in fact, to the role of the crescent moon in Islam. In terms of origins, the monotheistic attribution of the faith is/was considered by some scholars to have been a "heresy" to the original Indo-Iranian cult (observe both the Kalash religion and Hinduism are polytheistic).

Nowruz is essentially a spring-time festival with specific traditions. In that regard, it has been erroneously conflated with other spring-time festivals, such as Akitu. The issue of claiming an origin for Nowruz is thus twofold;

1) "true" Nowruz (haft-sin, chaharshanbesuri etc.), is, as I understand it, only celebrated in parts of the world that were either continuously under Iranian rule (e.g. the Republic of Azerbaijan) or home to those who speak an Iranian language (e.g. Kurds). As such, there's plenty of debate whether "true" Nowruz is a Persian cultural practice or a pan-Iranian cultural feature.

2) Various ethnic groups which are neither Iranic-speaking nor lived in territory that was extensively occupied by Iranian empires celebrate spring festivals often described as being Nowruz. For instance, the Kyrgyz and Kazakh. The Kyrgyz "Nowruz" in particular lacks the specific traditions practiced elsewhere. The Assyrian Akitu also does not resemble Nowruz.

As such, from my own limited reading and experience, I'm of the current opinion that Nowruz probably didn't originate from Persian culture and some variant of it was practised by other peoples belonging to the Iranian-speaking world. It also looks like unrelated Equinox holidays are incorrectly described as being "Nowruz", or were either ancestral or derived to/from it. Spring-time festivals were a given in agricultural societies both in Asia and elsewhere.

It appears the presence in records of the holiday being celebrated by Zoroastrians from Persia has convinced folks it wasn't practised elsewhere (affirmation bias). As scientists and debaters say, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. If not Nowruz in the current (Persian) form, I'd say the odds are reasonable that the ancestors of modern Pakhtuns also celebrated it.

As for the non-Islamic character of Nowruz, the reality is that many Muslim societies and/or individuals have reincorporated prior some cultural practises either wholly or with the adoption of an Islamic veneer. Nowruz was made more palatable for devout Muslims in Iran by placing a copy of the Qur'an at the haft-sin. Another example lies with the maintenance of pre-Islamic pagan traditions among the Chechen. I have seen some Iranian Muslims excuse Nowruz as "Zoroaster's introduction" and deem it a viable tradition as they recognise him as one of God's earlier prophets. Ultimately, that is up to their (and your) judiciousness based on individual interpretation of scripture.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

The Crescent moon has no significance in Islam; it was adopted by the Ottoman Turks to symbolize their authority. And since the Turks were a long standing threat to Europe and were Muslims, it became perceived as a symbol of Islam.


As for the claim Zoroastrianism being Monotheistic, it's a very murky and somewhat tenuous statement. You could argue that different currents in the Zoroastrian Canon, as it was evolving over time definitely conveyed a more strongly Monotheistic flavor, but similarly other currents were distinctly conveying Polytheistic notions.

We can grant that perhaps that the theology of the more polytheistic currents were merely using symbolism, but one thing for certain is that it greatly departs from the Monotheistic flavor of the Gathas. The evolution of the concept of Zurvan and the duality between Ohrmazd and Ahriman or Angra Mainyu and Spenta Mainyu (also perhaps a form of allegory) convey that there's a kind of dualism that rests on Pantheism in Zurvan.

But this is totally distinct from Monotheism although some could say that Islam, despite its claims of Monotheism is "Pantheistic" as well if we take the Mystical Theology of "Wahdat Al Wujud" into play. Wahdat Al Wujud would be the equivalent of Zurvan. Point being that it's not clear whether Zoroastrianism was truly monotheistic.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Also I would like to add that Akitu also called Kh'ab Al-Nisan does very much resemble Nawroz. It's more than likely that Nawroz was borrowed from the Assyrians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kha_b-Nisan

The reason it may seem that Nawroz and Akitu may not correspond has more to do with the usages of different calendars, the original Akitu was celebrated March 21st in correspondence with the Vernal Equinox. It would be anachronistic to conclude that Nawroz sprung up independently from Akitu.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Anyways, I celebrate Nawroz and so does my family. If it's "harram" it's perhaps a viewpoint taken by more rigid and narrow minded interpretations of Islam. The interpretation we take is much more accommodating and tolerant of things that do not overtly contradict Islam, and there is no overt statement that participation in Nawroz contravenes Islamic principles.

[DMXX]

The Crescent moon has no significance in Islam; it was adopted by the Ottoman Turks to symbolize their authority. And since the Turks were a long standing threat to Europe and were Muslims, it became perceived as a symbol of Islam.

As for the claim Zoroastrianism being Monotheistic, it's a very murky and somewhat tenuous statement. You could argue that different currents in the Zoroastrian Canon, as it was evolving over time definitely conveyed a more strongly Monotheistic flavor, but similarly other currents were distinctly conveying Polytheistic notions.

We can grant that perhaps that the theology of the more polytheistic currents were merely using symbolism, but one thing for certain is that it greatly departs from the Monotheistic flavor of the Gathas. The evolution of the concept of Zurvan and the duality between Ohrmazd and Ahriman or Angra Mainyu and Spenta Mainyu (also perhaps a form of allegory) convey that there's a kind of dualism that rests on Pantheism in Zurvan.

But this is totally distinct from Monotheism although some could say that Islam, despite its claims of Monotheism is "Pantheistic" as well if we take the Mystical Theology of "Wahdat Al Wujud" into play. Wahdat Al Wujud would be the equivalent of Zurvan. Point being that it's not clear whether Zoroastrianism was truly monotheistic.

Very well read my friend. I simplified for the sake of convenience vis-a-vis the Zoroastrian-monotheism topic. It's a confusing and controversial discussion in itself. As the discussion was on modern Zoroastrianism (present tense), I didn't see an issue categorising it as monotheistic (which it certainly is). Those other "colourful" sects you described did not survive Kartir's orthodoxy. One could extend the claim of murkiness towards Catholicism (always found it difficult reconciling monotheism with their Trinity).

As for Kha'b-Nisan, I'll have to respectfully disagree. Reading through the vague description presented in Wikipedia provided me with no overt similarity with Nowruz. There is no mention of stipulating purchasing new clothes, wearing white frequently during the celebrations, arranging a haft-sin, chaharshanbesuri (fire-jumping)... Do you find it unreasonable to assume different ancient cultures developed from the neolithic onwards would not independently develop their own spring festivals, given the agricultural benefits of the season in terms of sustenance? The fire and sun are both prominent motifs in the root Indo-Iranian culture, so I am unsurprised the Assyrian equivalent has any symbolism pertaining to either. Some more examples from across the world.

[khushal]

No real Pashtuns celebrate this Persian new year. Yes, Pashtuns may celebrate "nawey kaal" or harvest, etc. but they do not celebrate Nauroz unless they are Persianized. 100% no Pakistani Pashtuns even know what this Nauroz is, only Dari-speaking Afghans know.
This unIslamic Kabuli custom has no importance in Watan-e-Aziz Pakistan.

What are you talking about. All Agricultural societies celebrate it. How could they not celebrate that which feeds them. Panjab celebrate Holi which is the celebration of Spring. Christians celebrate Easter which is also in reality the celebration of Spring, they naively think its religious.

[khushal]

Pashtuns in general were originally a non-agricultural people and were traditionally nomads who followed their flocks yearly. If we are talking about Now Ruz, then it has ties to the Zoroastrian religion which accommodates sun worship. All non-islamic holidays (even b-days) are generally noted as haram.

The romans worshipped the Sun. Christmas(DEC 25) was celebrated by the Romans as the birth of the Sun which coincides with the time when the days start getting longer.

Nowroz is a Spring celebration. It has nothing to do with the Sun.

Where does it say non Islamic holidays are Haram? How does celebrating Spring contradict the Practice of Islam?

WE dont celebrate it in our family but I dont see anything wrong with it.

[Zarim]

We don't really celebrate it but the phone is constantly ringing that day with people calling us and my dad calling them to congratulate them. I do hope to celebrate it actively when I have kids. I think it's a beautiful tradition, definitely worthwhile.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

No real Pashtuns celebrate this Persian new year. Yes, Pashtuns may celebrate "nawey kaal" or harvest, etc. but they do not celebrate Nauroz unless they are Persianized. 100% no Pakistani Pashtuns even know what this Nauroz is, only Dari-speaking Afghans know.
This unIslamic Kabuli custom has no importance in Watan-e-Aziz Pakistan.

That's funny because I'm from an area where people can barely speak Dari and we celebrate Nawroz. Nawey Kal Psarlai is the same as Nawroz....Harvests happen in the autumn NOT spring time.

Pakistani Pashtuns maybe ignorant of Nawruz because of the Indic Pakistani influence rather than it not being a custom among Pashtuns.

Tribal Pashtuns in the Sarhad acknowledge Nawroz,

[Kushan Prince]

The romans worshipped the Sun. Christmas(DEC 25) was celebrated by the Romans as the birth of the Sun which coincides with the time when the days start getting longer.

Nowroz is a Spring celebration. It has nothing to do with the Sun.

Khushal,

We are not romans, and rome itself was a pagan society heavily influenced by the greeks at the time. Nowruz is connected to Zorastianism and this is the plain truth, its not just a "spring celebration" hence the jumping over the fire thing etc. I remember somebody i was arguing with desperately trying to connect nowruz to Islam.

Where does it say non Islamic holidays are Haram? How does celebrating Spring contradict the Practice of Islam?

I can't find the specific hadith right now but when i do, i will get back to you.

WE dont celebrate it in our family but I dont see anything wrong with it.]

Well thats good, i don't celebrate it myself but i know my family does.

[khushal]

Jumping over a fire is not evidence of worshipping the Sun or tied to Zorastrian.

People all over the world celebrate Spring. Here where I live, the Loatians are having a huge celebration and are organizing a big Spring festival tomorrow. Are they also tied to Zorastrians.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

No they don't and they certainly don't call it Nawroz.

Well you're definitely not tribal and from your other posts it seems you hate Pashtuns and are here to defend Indic peoples. Also you confused Harvest with Spring so your information is faulty.

Whether they call it "Nawroz" is irrelevant. After all "A Rose by Any Other Name" is just as sweet. I know that tribals celebrate Nawroz because they give Wuch Mewah, perform Attan and the whole deal on da yawam woray. Which is Nawruz.

[DaZahroJaam.]

through out history, afghans have displayed more similarities with the persian culture just as pakistan have with ithe indian.. there are muslim women in pakistan who wear saaries that expose the area around the bellies of elderly pakistani women. that's clearly against islam but it's normal in pakistan because it is part of their culture. are you bored?? would you like a hobby?? go fix that.

if a person wants to adapt to something new that doesn't harm anyone else at any point of time, why should they have to convince random nobodies of it's legitimacy??

get a life.

[Afghanfootball]

Shouldn't you go and help your fellow Yemenis? They are in crisis.

Not a single living Pashtun in Pakistan celebrates Nauroz.
Some Baluch do celebrate it and Pamiri/Wakhi people do it too, Parsis celebrate it as well and of course Afghan refugees; these are the only people in Pakistan who celebrate Nauroz. Ask any Pakistani Pashtun.

You just proved his point dumbass. Paki pashtuns may not celebrate it however that's just because they love with Indivs and are influenced by then however just about everyone in Afghanistan does.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Shouldn't you go and help your fellow Yemenis? They are in crisis.

Not a single living Pashtun in Pakistan celebrates Nauroz.
Some Baluch do celebrate it and Pamiri/Wakhi people do it too, Parsis celebrate it as well and of course Afghan refugees; these are the only people in Pakistan who celebrate Nauroz. Ask any Pakistani Pashtun.

What does Yemen have to do with a discussion on Nowruz? You're getting desperate it seems.

And to reinforce that you have no idea what you're talking about

http://nation.com.pk/islamabad/29-Mar-2015/nowruz-celebrations-spellbind-visitors

Nowruz is celebrated in Pakistan in Balti, Shina, Burushaski, Wakhi and Khawar speaking communities (Gilgit-Baltistan), Chitral, Hangu and Peshawar (Khyber Pakhtunkwa), Kurram Agency (FATA),

Kurram Agency= Tribal Pashtuns.

Pashtuns doing Attan during Nowruz, ....yeah NO living Pashtuns in Pakistan celebrate Nowruz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LZiXLpvOfE