~ Modesty in Today's World

[Mayana]

Salamoona,

inspired by recent discussions all over the forums, I'm opening this new thread to discuss this topic:

~ Modesty in Today's World - A Pashtun Approach.

How has the concept and the definition of modesty changed in our cultre?

From which new viewpoints do we have to approach this matter today? How can we take the following aspects into consideration:
Growing up in the West,
having little to do with Pashtuns/Afghans/Muslims,
not knowing enough about one's own customs because they were never taught by parents,
cultural conflicts,
religious conflicts,
foreign and sometimes hostile environment .. etc. ?

How do you personally define modesty among Pashtun women? How about Pashtun men?

Is a person immodest if he/she goes against once aspect of the overall concept of modesty? What makes people immodest?

Discuss =)

[Admin Khan]

The definition of modesty changes, What is modest to you might not be modest to me. What is modest to me, might not necessarily be modest to you. Modesty does not depend on just one aspect. It has many perspectives to it. Many members Ive noticed criticize only a certain aspect of modesty and yet call it a day and a job done. That is not how modesty works. Just because a girl wear's skinny jeans does not mean she is most horrible person on earth.

Just my $0.02

[Mayana]

The definition of modesty changes, What is modest to you might not be modest to me. What is modest to me, might not necessarily be modest to you. Modesty does not depend on just one aspect. It has many perspectives to it. Many members Ive noticed criticize only a certain aspect of modesty and yet call it a day and a job done. That is not how modesty works. Just because a girl wear's skinny jeans does not mean she is most horrible person on earth.

Just my $0.02

Thank you!

In my honest opinion Mayana, I consider modesty to be how well you can carry yourself in the public. walking in the streets with a bikini and then claiming to be a Pashtana is not something that I like.

I absolutely agree with you, how you carry yourself. A head held up high in honor and a lowered gaze in humility and modesty.

I'll share my opinion later on..

[Musafira]

To me modesty means dressing and acting appropriately for different situations. I think MOST people act somewhat differently in front of certain people out of respect or fear lol .

[AnGaaR]

To me modesty means dressing and acting appropriately for different situations. I think MOST people act somewhat differently in front of certain people out of respect or fear lol .

I was looking for this kind of reply..

I have seen many girls who wear scarf,hijab and try to act like a modest human but inside they r the worse.
In Gulf almost every women wears hijab so should we call all of them modest? Never... Its because the reality is always different from what you see.

Some men/women act modest or wear decent clothes just to show that they are modest but they are NOT.
Oh and modesty comes from heart not from looks or clothes..

[Musafira]

It's not completely fair but people make a lot of judgements/assumptions based on how a lady or man dresses and as a Muslim & Pashtana I always have that in my mind. Jeans and a long loose shirt that covers a persons bottom might be okay to wear to school but it wouldn't be considered modest ENOUGH in many other situations. What I was trying to say in my previous post is that a lot of people put on an "act" to appear modest in the company of certain people. Males and females often behave more modestly if say their elders are watching them and most living in Western countries dress more modestly than they do here when they go back home to visit.

[Musafira]

Angaar I agree with you completely. REAL modesty is much more about behavior but it's also a fact that most women are judged by how they dress and that dress can make or break a reputation.

[AfghanSoulja]

Modesty is a sham, the biggest deception that keeps you from getting to know the real person or their real nature.. That's true atleast for Muslims today, we form expressions based on what we see on the surface.

[Musafira]

Jasmine I would not feel comfortable wearing that outfit outside in Pakistan or Afghanistan Dressing appropriately for certain situations. Modestly also means not calling attention to yourself in MY opinion I hope you all understand me. I don't mean it's okay to dress inappropriately anywhere but rather what's appropriate in one situation is not always appropriate.

[Khan Gul]

To me modesty does not mean who wears what. To elaborate a little further, if a Pukhtun girl/woman living in the west begin wearing Burqa in which one looks like Ninja, that will be very odd. On the other hand, a Pukhtun girl/woman walking in Mingora bazaar wearing western dress that too will be strange. Well, if ALL Pukhtun woman/girls begin wearing skinny jeans in Swat, then I will have no reason to object. I think modesty is a state in which it is possible for people to keep feelings or behavior under control.

[Shayesta]

I think pretty much everyone summed it up. I know of Pukhtoons who find it immodest if a Pukhtana says 'salam' to a guy who walks with his friends, they usually would want the Pukhtana to just lower her head and keep on walking. But I also know of Pukhtoons (my brother for example) who finds it extreme rude if anyone (even a Pukhtana) ignores him while she knows him, and according to him that's immodest. Even Pukhtoons have got their own point of view from their own perspective, not all of us think through our tribal perspective.

[Nadir Shah]

I think if we follow Islam properly and correctly, Many of these modesty issues we are facing in the 21st century will disappear. If women dress as the Quran suggests and men follow what the Quran suggests, Modesty shouldn't be an issue at all.

Jasmine, had it been as simple as that the great philosophers would not have wasted their time by studying and theorizing about morality and ethics. This model of 'suppressive morality', as I call it, where natural and and humanistic tendencies and urges are suppressed cannot work, never has, never will.

[*Mahzala*]

I think modesty cannot be defined as easily as other things. And to make it harder, over time, not only its definition, but the whole concept has changed and is changing. What would have been considered modest half a decade ago would be considered extreme today, and what is considered modest today, would be frankly shamelessness and obscene back then. So today, a high neck lined shirt and a full length pant or three-quarter skirt may be considered modest (dress wise), but then back then, it was as if you were bare compared to the mainstream women who wore three layer dresses, full length gloves, shawls, covered shoes and even hats. And this is Europe I am talking about. Again, if we limit modesty to dress, then the 19th Century Indian courtesans were the limit of modesty, with their three-piece clothing, not revealing an inch of skin, and two-metre dupattas as a forth piece, coming around their bodies. Also, every person defines it differently too of course, as they bring certain baggage with themselves, defining it or basing it on things like culture or religion and thus using the latter as an example would cause many to want to slap the life out of me.

Modesty is apparent as a surface feature on many, either by the way they dress or conduct themselves. But it is not limited to dress. It is evident from basic things like your gaze, the way you talk, the way you walk, who you talk to and how you talk to them, what you're talking about and how you're talking about it. It is the formality and propreity of your manners too. Modesty isn't simply defined by clothes, not every Hijaabi is modest and not every non-Hijaabi (including non-Muslims) is not modest. I have many Muslim friends at university. I also have many non-Muslim friends, and believe you me, I prefer to hang around the non-Muslim ones. Why? Because I don't believe that to wear a scarf, you've reached a certain level. With that scarf goes hand in hand many more characteristics, and if absent, that Hijaab is not serving its purpose and paints a very ugly picture.

I am not one who takes things to extremes. In saying that, I don't take serious things lightly either. I am not one of those who will avoid walking into an elevator because there is a lone man standing in it. I often find at university that some men/women will, when the elevator door is opened and a Muslim of the opposite gender is inside, their heads and eyes will automatically go in the other direction and repeatedly press the button so as to wait for the next one. You see, things should be dealt with according to the extent of their harm. Some consider us freaks of some kind from Planet X with sexual disorders because of these extreme lines we have drawn. I find that annoying and disturbing. I am not one of those either who when offered a handshake by a man, grab the loose ends of my scarf and use as a barrier in returning the gesture. Because modesty doesn't end there. I do not give a lot of emphasis to the argument of a woman appearing attractive, lustful and 'availabe' if she is not in Hijaab and protected, secure, 'unavailable' and less 'looked at' in Hijaab. Because simply, that is not true. It comes down to the individual, full stop. That same Hijaabi may be seen attractive and available to her own kind and vice-versa. This, of course, is a different topic and has come up in many many many other threads , but it comes down to it being one of the many commands, that should be obeyed, for those with understanding. I don't like to throw everyone into the same boat. I have drifted, I know.

Come to think of it, I don't think I even answered your questions

[Mayana]

How you carry yourself in public, eh?
How exactly should you carry yourself?

For example, if a girl holds out her hand to shake yours, do you give in or no - as a guy?
Is going out with friends in agreement with your understanding of morality? And if so.. only friends of the same gender, or both genders?
How about society, do you carry conversations with the other gender? If so, to what extent - just shallow smalltalk, only what's necessary lol .. or in depth discussions like the ones we carry here on PF.. or even close da Zrra Haal lol?
How about elders.. do you carry conversations with them.. or do you just reply to their questions? lol
How do you act around children and youngsters, do you demand respect? Or are you more like their friend.. do you serve as a rolemodel?

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Mayana,

We men are sometimes very hypocritical we ask our women to wear scarfs and Hijabs but we ourselves stare at every women that passes by. I guess we are too blame as well but at the same time, Women are also to blame. If you are wearing tight short jeans with sleeveless shirts, many men find it hard to not look.

Do you agree?

handsomepashtun, when you walk out clean-shaven, in your fitted t-shirt and those irresistible jeans and when you give off the combined odors of Gillette aftershave, Axe body-spray and the new Hugo Boss cologne, you're pretty alluring, too.

Do you agree?

A) Yes?
B) No?
C) Not sure?
D) All of the above?
E) Options A and B
F) Options C and E?