~ Modesty in Today's World

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Exactly that is why I should also be careful with what I do.


Are you trying to say that all women wearing booty shorts is fine? As a Pashtun, That is a shame to have such a view.

Only women should decide what women should wear. I am in no position whatsoever do dictate to a woman what she should wear. Women are born free, just like the two of us - even though we're both more handsome than all the women in the world combined.

Now if a woman walks on the streets of Kabul wearing "booty shorts," she would, in the view of many, be the biggest fool in the world.

And handsome, are you saying that you shouldn't look good when you leave your house in the morning? You should look bad? What will you do, start wearing your grand-dad's loose clothes? Or stop shaving? Why?

Yes?
No?
Not sure?
All of the above?
I wanna go home?
Options A and D?

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

You are looking at this from a Non-Muslims perspective and Non-Pashtuns eyes.

We are Muslims, we have morals and we are Pashtuns we have a culture. do I have to teach you Religion and culture now? Have you read what the Quran has to say about modesty? How about we follow that along with our culture and call it a day?

Yes?
No?
Not sure?
All of the above?
I am not a Pashtun?
Option B and E?

Morals change from time to time and from place to place. How does giving freedom to women to choose what to wear constitute immorality?

Yes?
No?
Not sure?
All of the above?
I liked Toy Story 3?
'Up' was better?

[Roshina]

Have you read what the Quran has to say about modesty?

Three people here so far have mentioned Islam/Quran and modesty, yet none of them has said anything specific. So I'm gonna have to request ... can you please tell us how the Quran defines modesty? Or what it says about modesty, other than "always be modest" or "God likes those who are modest"?

Ultimately, that's what this thread is about -- about modesty and what it means to us, or to Islam, or to Pashtunwali.

[Dukemina]

Although a girl wearing skimpy clothes may not necessarily means she is a bad girl, it does mean she is immodest.

[Mayana]

I believe we are all human beings with our own shortcomings and flaws..
Yes, I agree it is difficult for a man to not look at a woman who's exposing her skin and curves.. But, I believe we all agree that a decent self-respecting girl is much much more alluring than any of those eye-candy-girls. You can have accesss to exposing women whereever, the streets, the Internet, magazines and so forth.. but I've experienced that for some men it is much more difficult to take their eyes of that decent girl who has Hayaa. And that is because they are 'rare' in a sense that men do not have access to them, you can't go look up "decent girl" on Google but you can look up "sexy girl" and probably find tons of pics etc. So yea, no matter what a woman does, there always will be men admiring her and not being able to take of their eyes of her.
Here is where the mens modesty comes into play and this is why this is not a one-way street..

We have all different perceptions of modesty, I believe it isn't just limited to the body in particular but other aspects such as what words you chose or what topics you talk about.. whom you associate with, what your aspirations are.. What your values are, how you treat others etc. And these aspects change depending on location and time.. but the core idea of modesty - in my opinion - is strongly connected to selfrespect and hence respect for others and honor and humility.

[parsiwaan]

Salamoona,

inspired by recent discussions all over the forums, I'm opening this new thread to discuss this topic:

~ Modesty in Today's World - A Pashtun Approach.

How has the concept and the definition of modesty changed in our cultre?

From which new viewpoints do we have to approach this matter today? How can we take the following aspects into consideration:
Growing up in the West,
having little to do with Pashtuns/Afghans/Muslims,
not knowing enough about one's own customs because they were never taught by parents,
cultural conflicts,
religious conflicts,
foreign and sometimes hostile environment .. etc. ?

How do you personally define modesty among Pashtun women? How about Pashtun men?

Is a person immodest if he/she goes against once aspect of the overall concept of modesty? What makes people immodest?

Discuss =)

Interesting topic Mayana jaan,
I think there is no definition of modesty…it all depands on our own personal values and understand…over all I think in all Muslim world...our culture has been influences by Islam notation of "don't advertise your sin" that is why if one does wrong, the first thing our mom would say "wee mardoom che megaan."(what the people would say." in other word bad is not bad for her own end but for what others would think...this is exactly the reason almost all afghan families hide their bad deeds... i know this afghan guy who has been in prison while his parents are telling people he has gone to out of state college. On other hand there is tremendous bias when it comes to female gender… if our sons gets few gfs, we will be like ena bachee shir..naar bacha.. while if our daughter even talks to a guy…we would not like it. Thus keeping with this bias some of our females are developing a two-faced or should I say two personality…one among her peers and outside home and one when she is in home or among afghans…in same token a lot of afghan girls are now a days marring out of race and nationality… since they experiences the hypocrisy of their father and brother…specially how their father treats their mom. What is unfortunate is that some of our younger male are also adopting to this mentality… like in this forum one of the guy who was saying he had his fun with girls…but no one even bother to question him…but in same thread when a girl said she know a pashton girl who has a bf…they all went crazy.
I think no matter if we like it or not…our culture will evolve…back home a modest girl was one who has not went out of home all her life(roheesha Aftaw wa Mahtaaw Nadedaah.) while in here…in my opinion a modest girl is who has her values rights…knows her culture and region and knows what she wants in her life. Now if this girl has talk to guys and if she wanted to know a guy for marriage… she is still modest.. while back home if a girl and guy talks… by default that girl is a w.(pardon my French.)

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Islam gives women freedom, It just has certain requirements. To cover your bossom and hair. Do you have a problem with this?

A)Yes I do
B)I am not a Pashtun nor Muslim so I dont care
C)I have lost my culture in Karachi
D)All I the above

handsomepashtun, when did I ever say that women shouldn't cover their bosoms? When did I say I have a problem with that? A woman should cover her bosom in public the same way a man should cover his modesty. Those are the rules of public decency.

I still maintain that women don't need anyone telling them what to do, what to wear, how to think, how to act. About covering their hair, it's their choice. Women are not cattle that you can brand and call your own. These "rules of morality" have given men the authority to rule the women of their household as though they're animals. This should be ended irrespective of whether it's done under the guise of Islam or Pashtunwali.

[parsiwaan]

I believe we are all human beings with our own shortcomings and flaws..
Yes, I agree it is difficult for a man to not look at a woman who's exposing her skin and curves.. But, I believe we all agree that a decent self-respecting girl is much much more alluring than any of those eye-candy-girls. You can have accesss to exposing women whereever, the streets, the Internet, magazines and so forth.. but I've experienced that for some men it is much more difficult to take their eyes of that decent girl who has Hayaa. And that is because they are 'rare' in a sense that men do not have access to them, you can't go look up "decent girl" on Google but you can look up "sexy girl" and probably find tons of pics etc. So yea, no matter what a woman does, there always will be men admiring her and not being able to take of their eyes of her.
Here is where the mens modesty comes into play and this is why this is not a one-way street..

We have all different perceptions of modesty, I believe it isn't just limited to the body in particular but other aspects such as what words you chose or what topics you talk about.. whom you associate with, what your aspirations are.. What your values are, how you treat others etc. And these aspects change depending on location and time.. but the core idea of modesty - in my opinion - is strongly connected to selfrespect and hence respect for others and honor and humility.

If i talk from personal experience... now i know i can not base my personal experience as fact...but i hope you guys take it as my antidote ...i knew this white girl in college….she had a bf(her high school sweet heart)...but had not sleep with him..she used to say she believes in sex after marriage... then there was this Hajabi Arab girl... she used to go around with a lot of guys...if one had line both girls side by side... by default the white girl would had look like a w comparing to Hajbi girl…but in reality the opposite was true… The point is looks can be fooling…especially when cloths are forced on eastern/Muslim girls (call it cultural or religion limitation or requirement.) I personally would never call a girl modest by simply what she wears.

[Mayana]

I disagree with. Men should not force women, but women must respect Islam if they are considered Muslims. If they want to dress like the west, the should follow the religion of the west.

This is in direct contradiction to eachother.. In the Qur'an sharif, 2:256, it also says there is no compulsion in religon. Sure, we should advise and encourage one another to improve our Deen inshAllah and we should do our best to help eachother fisabilillah.. but on judgement day, you probably won't be asked " Why did XY wear pants made out of jean fabric that were her size and not 8 sizes larger?" or "Why was XY wearing a T-Shirt on 5/20/2005?". No matter what those people do.. we won't be held accountable for theit actions. Unfortunately or else I'd love to take all of my parent's sins upon my sohulders.. but we can't. We only will be held accountable for what we have done, for what we have not done and for what we intended.. etc. So a man who is messing with some woman's religious business won't be asked "Why did she not cover herself?" he's more likely to be asked.. "Why did you try to force Islamic principles down her throat and why did you THUS scare her away from Islam??" That's what it is, our people try to force Islam down other's throat, we talk about Islam says this about women, it says that about women.. But we fail to see that some of us only resort to the Qur'an when they are trying to prove their point. They use Islam and Pashtunwali to justify their own opinions.

So when we discuss these matters.. I think none of us are in a position to decide who is allowed to be Muslim and who is not. It a blessing from Allah swt and we human beings have NO right WHATSOEVER to take this blessing away from anyone.
We can't go around saying, "Oooh, oops, I saw your knee. You just left Islam, go take the Shahada again." That's not how it works.. We can accept new Muslims into our community.. but we cannot expell them Hence is why there is the process of taking the Shahada, but no process of anyone leaving the faith. Judgement is upto Allah swt.

[Feroza_Banu]

its a very beautiful topic and really beautiful replies... i read everyone's replies and i am really glad to know how you guys have such bright minds... mashaallah this forum is full of positive people who can think outside the box... who do not have a limited vision and understanding.

i wouldn't say anything more regarding the topic because it was beautifully covered by multiple members here, other than "modesty starts from one's brain and reflects on to the eyes and the heart"

[Dukemina]

Can you elaborate?

Her heart may be clean but her appearence is not and we can only hope that such a person reaches the point where she does begin to dress modestly.

I don't think that modesty should only be limited to what is in the heart. If that were the case then we wouldn't be required to recite the Shahadah verbally in order to become a Muslim. To be modest, you must show it in your actions (by appearing modest) as well as in your heart. Its not an either/or thing here.