Both Afghan and Pashtunkhwa's Pashtuns are in denial!

[Millatpal Noorzai]

I was reading Sangar's thread about how he hates urban culture, and at the end the thread turned into a blame game between some members; i will put it into my own words and hope no one gets offended.

Starting with my Pashtuns from Afghanistan (including me), who have been denying the fact that there was no prostitution in Afghanistan and we were all modest,humble,adherent to Pashtunwali etc.
My dear Afghans/Pashtuns why do we deny that women in Kabul and other major cities in Afghanistan used to wear skirts in 60s and 70s.
Why deny that we used to have stage shows similar to present day Punjabi Mujras called Sanha or Nandara in Pashto where youth will squander all their wealth on exotic dancers.
Today in Afghanistan there is more brothels than it ever existed in its history, both domestic and foreign run.

NOW ABOUT MY PASHTUNKHWA'S PASHTUNS:
Fellow Pashtuns of Pashtunkhwa why deny that in Pakistan each community in major cities had organized brothels at the time of General Yahya and then Bhutto.Most of the brothels went under the table when Zia took over and banned brothels in each street.Brothels in Pakistan were as common as having a community or recreational center in western societies.Why deny that Mujras were also held in Pashtun areas of Pashtunkhwa.Why deny that Ghulam Ahmed Bilor used to own multiple cinema theaters where XXX movies were run round the clock.

Even today state run brothels disguised as "Dar ul Amans/shelters" exist along with privately run brothels in each city and community.
Wasn't prositution made legal by Musharraf and voted in favor by Maulana FazluRehman in the shape of "Huddod Ordinance".

As a Pashtun i don't think Pashtuns in Afghanistan or Pashtunkhwa are angels.I urge you all to stop blaming it on Parsiwan/Persian Afghans in AFG and Punjabis/Sindhis in Pakistan.
Embrace that we are as much sinners as they are when it comes to this level.

[Feroza_Banu]

all i can say is that pashtuns are alllllllllll in denial...

why deny the fact that pashtuns treat their women the worse!!!!!!!! of all other ethnicities... why deny that pashtoon women praised and honored in poems and songs are actually disrespected, battered, abused, used, and thrown like a disposal glass.

why deny that pashtoon women are killed, and tortured in the name of ghairat, nang o namoos.

why deny that pashtoon men marry tajik or other ethnic women and treat them like princess but when they marry their own pashtanas they treat them like a donkey.

why deny that pashtoon women don't have the basic right to education and adequate healthcare... men will run to hospitals if their head hurts while women give birth at home in presence of unqualified "daya"... women are only taken to doctors when they are close to death.

why deny that pashtoon women are opressed, depressed, have no self esteem and are regarded as only as a maid or baby popping machine...

so please... i kindly request all the pashtoons to stop the BS about pashtoon fair treatment of women... please wake up realize how its only a fairy tale only exists in books and poems...

today when i look at an unfairly treated pashtana i refuse to read poems about Malali and zarghoona ana... every pashtoon woman that lives with ghairat and imaan is malali and zarghoona... if u can't treat the alive ones nicely, then forget about the dead ones...

-thanks for reading.

kindest regards,
-A pashtana...

[Millatpal Noorzai]

all i can say is that pashtuns are alllllllllll in denial...

why deny the fact that pashtuns treat their women the worse!!!!!!!! of all other ethnicities... why deny that pashtoon women praised and honored in poems and songs are actually disrespected, battered, abused, used, and thrown like a disposal glass.

why deny that pashtoon women are killed, and tortured in the name of ghairat, nang o namoos.

why deny that pashtoon men marry tajik or other ethnic women and treat them like princess but when they marry their own pashtanas they treat them like a donkey.

why deny that pashtoon women don't have the basic right to education and adequate healthcare... men will run to hospitals if their head hurts while women give birth at home in presence of unqualified "daya"... women are only taken to doctors when they are close to death.

why deny that pashtoon women are opressed, depressed, have no self esteem and are regarded as only as a maid or baby popping machine...

so please... i kindly request all the pashtoons to stop the BS about pashtoon fair treatment of women... please wake up realize how its only a fairy tale only exists in books and poems...

today when i look at an unfairly treated pashtana i refuse to read poems about Malali and zarghoona ana... every pashtoon woman that lives with ghairat and imaan is malali and zarghoona... if u can't treat the alive ones nicely, then forget about the dead ones...

-thanks for reading.

kindest regards,
-A pashtana...

Very much unfortunate and dark side of our social life as Pashtuns.

[Millatpal Noorzai]

Great post Noorzai bro. Parsiwan and Punjabis have probably done more for islam than us pashtuns. We shouldn't live in self denial and blame everything on our neighbours all the times.

I believe in self-correction Timbaktu brother.
Pashtuns need to get outta denial, admit their defects/short falls and try to overcome these issues.
Blame game can be useful for the sake of an argument but it sure can't be turned into reality.

[Nadir Shah]

I was reading Sangar's thread about how he hates urban culture, and at the end the thread turned into a blame game between some members; i will put it into my own words and hope no one gets offended.

Starting with my Pashtuns from Afghanistan (including me), who have been denying the fact that there was no prostitution in Afghanistan and we were all modest,humble,adherent to Pashtunwali etc.
My dear Afghans/Pashtuns why do we deny that women in Kabul and other major cities in Afghanistan used to wear skirts in 60s and 70s.
Why deny that we used to have stage shows similar to present day Punjabi Mujras called Sanha or Nandara in Pashto where youth will squander all their wealth on exotic dancers.
Today in Afghanistan there is more brothels than it ever existed in its history, both domestic and foreign run.

NOW ABOUT MY PASHTUNKHWA'S PASHTUNS:
Fellow Pashtuns of Pashtunkhwa why deny that in Pakistan each community in major cities had organized brothels at the time of General Yahya and then Bhutto.Most of the brothels went under the table when Zia took over and banned brothels in each street.Brothels in Pakistan were as common as having a community or recreational center in western societies.Why deny that Mujras were also held in Pashtun areas of Pashtunkhwa.Why deny that Ghulam Ahmed Bilor used to own multiple cinema theaters where XXX movies were run round the clock.

Even today state run brothels disguised as "Dar ul Amans/shelters" exist along with privately run brothels in each city and community.
Wasn't prositution made legal by Musharraf and voted in favor by Maulana FazluRehman in the shape of "Huddod Ordinance".

As a Pashtun i don't think Pashtuns in Afghanistan or Pashtunkhwa are angels.I urge you all to stop blaming it on Parsiwan/Persian Afghans in AFG and Punjabis/Sindhis in Pakistan.
Embrace that we are as much sinners as they are when it comes to this level.

Malgariya, your point being?

What exactly are the 'shortcomings' and 'faults' of Pashtuns?

How has the perception that we watch porn and/or prosititution exists in Pashtunkhwa and Afghanistan got to do with anything? Is this the cause of our lack of political and economic autonomy?
Yes there are brothels in Kabul and Peshawar? How does that make us not worthy of political and economic autonomy?

Malgariya, we blame the Punjabis because they are to blame. Plain and simple. We do not blame Pashtuns because they are under the yoke of an oppressive state in Pakistan.

[Nadir Shah]

We are not in denial. Its because we are too pride to admit our mistakes. Denial is the wrong word to use.

Its more of a ghairat issue.

Malgariya, what do you mean by this? I wish we had more pride in being Pashtun. At this point in time, we have no pride in our history, culture or national existence.

[Michin Khel]

all i can say is that pashtuns are alllllllllll in denial...

why deny the fact that pashtuns treat their women the worse!!!!!!!! of all other ethnicities... why deny that pashtoon women praised and honored in poems and songs are actually disrespected, battered, abused, used, and thrown like a disposal glass.

why deny that pashtoon women are killed, and tortured in the name of ghairat, nang o namoos.

why deny that pashtoon men marry tajik or other ethnic women and treat them like princess but when they marry their own pashtanas they treat them like a donkey.

why deny that pashtoon women don't have the basic right to education and adequate healthcare... men will run to hospitals if their head hurts while women give birth at home in presence of unqualified "daya"... women are only taken to doctors when they are close to death.

why deny that pashtoon women are opressed, depressed, have no self esteem and are regarded as only as a maid or baby popping machine...

so please... i kindly request all the pashtoons to stop the BS about pashtoon fair treatment of women... please wake up realize how its only a fairy tale only exists in books and poems...

today when i look at an unfairly treated pashtana i refuse to read poems about Malali and zarghoona ana... every pashtoon woman that lives with ghairat and imaan is malali and zarghoona... if u can't treat the alive ones nicely, then forget about the dead ones...

-thanks for reading.

kindest regards,
-A pashtana...

Some harsh but true facts !

[Mayana]

Thank you, Noorzayya wrora!

There really is nothing to add to what Feroza said.. Our role.. It's taken for granted because women were taught to be selflessly giving and men have always had this care. It is the way our society works and it can go wrong on so many levels.
We call ourselves flawless, we call our regimes flawless, we call our society flawless. It is not.
The talibaan have done many many wrongs to women.. and the fact that there will be people who will agree with this very statement of mine just shows how brainwashed our society has made us. "The Talibaan protected women, there were no rapes during the taliban, there was no disgrace." A female face was a disgrace! How were women protected? By cutting off their fingers if they wore nail polish? We have done many wrongs to our women.


Our society is not flawless, no where even close. Our people are uneducated because, in some families, even education is considered a useless thing for women.. our people are close minded in so many aspects, women have to fight for every single little right and privilege and they are taught not to fight starting as little girls. This society doesn't offer any way out for women out of abusive environments; it is considered a disgrace, no matter how horrible her situation is, she has to take it because she was born a woman - whereas her husband can walk off at any given time and it is considered his natural right because "his wife obviously failed to take care of him".

And on top of ALL that, having the audacity to legitimize this shameful behavior by selectively enforcing Islamic rulings tops this whole hypocrisy OFF.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

We are not in denial. Its because we are too pride to admit our mistakes. Denial is the wrong word to use.

Its more of a ghairat issue.

Wrora who needs this ghairat when for the past 30 years countless nations have played on our land. What are we going to do with ghairath when our own are begging in the streets? This is just things we say to ourselves to make us feel better. However to be honest, we have really been sidelined. Rather than discuss our deficiency and work to improve we have people amongst us who want to one up one another (i.e. "tha kabulae yaee.." tha pakistanae yaee.., etc) or want to create division. I would be happier if we all could come together and start some tangible efforts. Unfortunately from my experience, that always turns into something useless and petty. We don't even have people to represent us in our own homeland...how embarrassing is that?

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

The level of our denial is much deeper.

Despite being defeated, divided and subjugated, we cling to memories and pictures of conquerors and heroes of a bygone era. At every nook and corner, we resurrect their memories and use their heroism and bravery to somehow accredit ourselves as a people. They're dead! They did what they did and they're here no more. Now it's your turn to do something instead of idling around and living off their achievements. Since the last two hundred years or so, we have only produced one great Pashtun - Bachaa Khan and even then, there are so-called Pashtuns today, and some of them are on this forum, who spit on him and whatever he stood for.

Here's what I find more interesting - Pashtuns who favor being with Pakistan and their 'Muslim brothers' invoke the name of Khushal Khan Khattak from time to time. Do they not know that the man spent his whole life fighting for Pashtun independence? Supporting Pakistan and adhering to the principles of KKK are as apart from each other as the two poles.

Then there are Pashtuns who say they love Bachaa Khan. They also support violence despite knowing that Bachaa Khan believed in nonviolence and civil disobedience.

All of this really frustrates me. You have Ahmed Shah Abdali as a conqueror and the British have Robert Clive, the conqueror of India, Arthur Wellesley, the Duke of Wellington, the man who defeated Napoleon, William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham (conqueror of New France, modern day Canada), Horatio Nelson, one of the most brilliant admirals in history, Henry V (at Agincourt) and you can add the names of the men who conquered South Africa, Egypt, Singapore, Rhodesia, the Pacific Islands, etc, etc, etc. My point is that we should stop over-romanticizing our figures of the past so much so that we actually start living there instead of the present. The needs of the hour are dire yet there are no great men to be found.

/rant

[Shayesta]

why deny that pashtoon men marry tajik or other ethnic women and treat them like princess but when they marry their own pashtanas they treat them like a donkey. why deny that pashtoon women are opressed, depressed, have no self esteem and are regarded as only as a maid or baby popping machine...

Feroza grane, the much I agree with you, yet I would like to comment on this point right here which I have done before on other thread as well. As you say Pukhtoon men who marry non-Pukhtanas treat their wives like princess but treat Pukhtanas like donkeys, why? I mean, those Pukhtoon men marrying non-Pukhtanas are exactly same men who marry Pukhtanas as well, right? Then why so much difference? That's because our women describe a woman who endures torture, injustice and violation as 'a good wife' and someone who speaks out as 'a bad woman'. It's our own women who expect their daughters-in-law to bring babies to the world every year, they are the ones who think a woman's place is at home, not in colleges.

Other women haven't been thought that way and that's why they know how to handle their husbands. My own uncles were oppressing my mum and aunts because my grandma encouraged them, and my grandpa on other hand tried to educate his daughters. But as soon as one of them got married (to a Tajik), and I feel bad saying this, but he actually turned into a human being. When he used to shout at his wife, his wife (despite of being raised in a illiterate and extremely poor family) used to smile at him and say, 'Grana, khair dai obakha. Bia ba dase ghalati nekawom.' She was even beaten in the beginning few times, but she never cried. She used to apologise because she knew that like every men even my uncle hates tears, and you might have noticed that the more a woman cries, the more she gets beaten. Majority is our fault grane, we are the ones who have to treat our daughters and daughters-in-law much better. If we ourselves consider women a.k.a. ourselves as man's shoe and show no self-respect towards herself, then how will a man respect us? Respect is earned, not pitied.

[Nadir Shah]

The level of our denial is much deeper.

Despite being defeated, divided and subjugated, we cling to memories and pictures of conquerors and heroes of a bygone era. At every nook and corner, we resurrect their memories and use their heroism and bravery to somehow accredit ourselves as a people. They're dead! They did what they did and they're here no more. Now it's your turn to do something instead of idling around and living off their achievements. Since the last two hundred years or so, we have only produced one great Pashtun - Bachaa Khan and even then, there are so-called Pashtuns today, and some of them are on this forum, who spit on him and whatever he stood for.

Here's what I find more interesting - Pashtuns who favor being with Pakistan and their 'Muslim brothers' invoke the name of Khushal Khan Khattak from time to time. Do they not know that the man spent his whole life fighting for Pashtun independence? Supporting Pakistan and adhering to the principles of KKK are as apart from each other as the two poles.

Then there are Pashtuns who say they love Bachaa Khan. They also support violence despite knowing that Bachaa Khan believed in nonviolence and civil disobedience.

All of this really frustrates me. You have Ahmed Shah Abdali as a conqueror and the British have Robert Clive, the conqueror of India, Arthur Wellesley, the Duke of Wellington, the man who defeated Napoleon, William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham (conqueror of New France, modern day Canada), Horatio Nelson, one of the most brilliant admirals in history, Henry V (at Agincourt) and you can add the names of the men who conquered South Africa, Egypt, Singapore, Rhodesia, the Pacific Islands, etc, etc, etc. My point is that we should stop over-romanticizing our figures of the past so much so that we actually start living there instead of the present. The needs of the hour are dire yet there are no great men to be found.

/rant

Malgariya, Please think in terms of how we need these figures and the glory as an antidote to the state propaganda (Jinnah, Iqbal, Vikar ul Mulk, Pakistaniyyat etc.). Secondly, these figures represent the very ideals that we strive for. Static nostalgia is one thing, striving for our future with our glorious past in mind as a blue print, quite another.

[Jana]

I was reading Sangar's thread about how he hates urban culture, and at the end the thread turned into a blame game between some members; i will put it into my own words and hope no one gets offended.

Starting with my Pashtuns from Afghanistan (including me), who have been denying the fact that there was no prostitution in Afghanistan and we were all modest,humble,adherent to Pashtunwali etc.
My dear Afghans/Pashtuns why do we deny that women in Kabul and other major cities in Afghanistan used to wear skirts in 60s and 70s.
Why deny that we used to have stage shows similar to present day Punjabi Mujras called Sanha or Nandara in Pashto where youth will squander all their wealth on exotic dancers.
Today in Afghanistan there is more brothels than it ever existed in its history, both domestic and foreign run.

NOW ABOUT MY PASHTUNKHWA'S PASHTUNS:
Fellow Pashtuns of Pashtunkhwa why deny that in Pakistan each community in major cities had organized brothels at the time of General Yahya and then Bhutto.Most of the brothels went under the table when Zia took over and banned brothels in each street.Brothels in Pakistan were as common as having a community or recreational center in western societies.Why deny that Mujras were also held in Pashtun areas of Pashtunkhwa.Why deny that Ghulam Ahmed Bilor used to own multiple cinema theaters where XXX movies were run round the clock.

Even today state run brothels disguised as "Dar ul Amans/shelters" exist along with privately run brothels in each city and community.
Wasn't prositution made legal by Musharraf and voted in favor by Maulana FazluRehman in the shape of "Huddod Ordinance".

As a Pashtun i don't think Pashtuns in Afghanistan or Pashtunkhwa are angels.I urge you all to stop blaming it on Parsiwan/Persian Afghans in AFG and Punjabis/Sindhis in Pakistan.
Embrace that we are as much sinners as they are when it comes to this level.

I agree with every word of your post. Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world and had been present in almost every society.

[Feroza_Banu]

Feroza grane, the much I agree with you, yet I would like to comment on this point right here which I have done before on other thread as well. As you say Pukhtoon men who marry non-Pukhtanas treat their wives like princess but treat Pukhtanas like donkeys, why? I mean, those Pukhtoon men marrying non-Pukhtanas are exactly same men who marry Pukhtanas as well, right? Then why so much difference? That's because our women describe a woman who endures torture, injustice and violation as 'a good wife' and someone who speaks out as 'a bad woman'. It's our own women who expect their daughters-in-law to bring babies to the world every year, they are the ones who think a woman's place is at home, not in colleges.

Other women haven't been thought that way and that's why they know how to handle their husbands. My own uncles were oppressing my mum and aunts because my grandma encouraged them, and my grandpa on other hand tried to educate his daughters. But as soon as one of them got married (to a Tajik), and I feel bad saying this, but he actually turned into a human being. When he used to shout at his wife, his wife (despite of being raised in a illiterate and extremely poor family) used to smile at him and say, 'Grana, khair dai obakha. Bia ba dase ghalati nekawom.' She was even beaten in the beginning few times, but she never cried. She used to apologise because she knew that like every men even my uncle hates tears, and you might have noticed that the more a woman cries, the more she gets beaten. Majority is our fault grane, we are the ones who have to treat our daughters and daughters-in-law much better. If we ourselves consider women a.k.a. ourselves as man's shoe and show no self-respect towards herself, then how will a man respect us? Respect is earned, not pitied.

i agree with you 100%... i recommend every pashtoon to read this post... men and women... this is the fact of life about pashtoon women in the society and how all of this is our own fault...

i have soooooooooooo much to say... i have seen so much that i burst out in anger when someone says 'pashtoons are respectful to women..."

yes pashtoons r respectful to other's women ... to their own.. they are worst than the beast!... and pashtoon women are each other's enemies!

[AfghanSoulja]

No one denies that, i posted a couple of weeks ago that the first thing people want to see when they come here from back home are strip clubs, and get it on with a girl.

We are in denial about a lot of things, but is the most gravest of our concerns ? no its not..this is more of a distraction than denial, when you have fallen too deep, when all you can see in your future is nothing..finding little comfort and happiness in these little things is all that matters ..because at that point it seems like its all there is to life.