What are real Pakhtana values?

[salahuddin]

[QUOTE=Gulbabo;370237][QUOTE=kakargirl;370229]

Salam Kakargirl. I would like to ask you a question in regards to your statement about divorce. i would appreciate it if you could answer these so i would know where you are coming from.


Dear Kakargirl. The point that I am trying to make is that the divorce rate in Afghanistan does not represent happy marriage rate. You are telling me that no one in your family and entire Barkzai tribe, as far as you know, is not divorced, portraying it to be a happily ever after story. You said it yourself in your earlier post that all the women are treated with respect and dignity, love, and support, which is why no one has ended up in a divorce. can you seriously claim to know this about every marriage in your family?

Imagine this, just suppose, the women in your family were battered (khudai de na kawei), or abused, or mistreated, would they have the means to ask for a khula? Are they financially and/or emotionally independent to do so? many pashtoon families have this attitude that once you are married to someone, the only way for a woman to come out of her husband's home is in a coffin... that means the society has no place for a divorcee, making it seem like the worst sin on earth. Usually families don't accept such women back in to their home, let alone take care of their financial needs. so considering all the above factors, would u say a woman in our society has the choice to ask for a divorce in a dire situation? what about the law in Afghanistan... does it protect a woman's right? Do women back home even have enough courage to go to court? if not, why not? who is stopping them, what is making them so weak? who is not supporting them?

You consider yourself to be the true representative of all pashtoon women. you are strict on pashtoon codes and you follow it, right? what if you end up with an abusive husband who beats you up daily, he abuses you emotionally and physically. You can't live in such a circumstance and you end up asking for a divorce, would you say, would that be enough to label you as a bad pashtana? or is that living with an abusing husband and taking all the crap is how pashtana should live?

on a final note in this post, (i hope you think about my questions and answer them in a more comprehensive way), you belong to a royal family, you do not represent ordinary pashtoon women, because ordinary pashtoon women like myself, don't belong to royal families.

How can a woman get divorced from a husband in a society like Afghanistans?

Kakargirl is from the UK, she has never been to Afghanistan and witnessed the state of women there.

Women who dare to show their faces, when given the chance, get sprayed with acid, they get attacked, I dare you not to wear a Burqa in parts of Afghanistan,and you would be lynched and punished.

Women suffer under silence and according to kakargirl who is just a child in the UK, thinks this means happy marriages and that men treat them with respect.

The last time I remmeber a Afghan women being treated with respect in Afghanistan was before the 70's. after that, they were stoned in public, lashed in public, confined to their kitchens, prevented from working etc etc etc

Islam and Afghan tribalism mixed with backwardness has contributed to the state of women.

Its easy for those in the West to glorify their lives abroad, but why dont you go and spend time there as a women and taste reality.

[Manzareh]

Perhapse if these certain women which have this hate for cultural minded pashtuns travelled the world abit, they would become less naive.

Roshina and the rest remind me off when i used to be at school and a group of girls used to beat a 'good girl' up just for being good, they would gang up on her in the dinner hall, call her a 'virgin freak' before knocking her food tray out of her hand, no doubt those girls were infact wannabes of the girl they were bullying, but they couldnt comprehende how being a good girl and not following the crowd could earn you happyness. To me, people like Roshina and the rest try so hard to distance themselves from who they are but despite all their efforts they still are not excepted in the society they beg for, which means they are forced to belong to something which they hate. its extremly sad because these certain bullys need to take the time out and realise that a girl that honours her family doesnt mean she is being imprisoned, if a girl listens to her elders it doesnt mean shes under torture, if she safeguards herself and her limits in order to please her parents its a beautiful thing, not some picture painted by people with a Narcisstic personality dissorder that women which fullfill there role as women to be insecure,weak,inferior,dumb. people that have sound knowledge of Islam like Mahzala need to put these women that look down on good muslim girls in their place.

I dont mean nothing sinister by mentioning names im just being true in my words as they relfect my personal feelings.

[Manzareh]

SALADIN,

How can a woman get divorced from a husband in a society like Afghanistans?

- You work towoards a society which is Islamic, thats how

Kakargirl is from the UK, she has never been to Afghanistan and witnessed the state of women there.

- Ovcourse shes been to AFG, infact i think she was born their if im not mistaken, either way your analysis is wrong

Women who dare to show their faces, when given the chance, get sprayed with acid, they get attacked, I dare you not to wear a Burqa in parts of Afghanistan,and you would be lynched and punished.

- Thats only in some places and in some places its the same thing in the west, women which dare to cover their faces are subjected to violence by the rest of society, they get beaten up and pissed on. I dare you to wear a Burqa in some parts England,Europe,America and you will be left in an allyway and torched. dont be so single minded.

Women suffer under silence and according to kakargirl who is just a child in the UK, thinks this means happy marriages and that men treat them with respect.

- Just because you think they suffer under silence, doesnt mean its true, you look at a women which is covered up and you think "mindless robot, what a boring women, why would she want to live like that?? CONCLUSION: shes suffering in silence!!" i would argue its on the contrary, do you want me post some statistics on the wife beatings by non muslims in the west? some of them suffer in silence too

The last time I remmeber a Afghan women being treated with respect in Afghanistan was before the 70's. after that, they were stoned in public, lashed in public, confined to their kitchens, prevented from working etc etc etc

- utter bullsh1t

Islam and Afghan tribalism mixed with backwardness has contributed to the state of women.

- utter bullsh1t

Its easy for those in the West to glorify their lives abroad, but why dont you go and spend time there as a women and taste reality.

- Many have, perhapse you should face your fears and do the same, your traumitized by something which has made you deluded to reality.

[KingKhan]

I think salalhuddin(MI6, MaslumMaseed) was a victim of Bacha Bazi. Don't be made at everyone, just your captors. You can't blame their entire race, and god what happened to you.

[Shayesta]

It's the TONE of the words that comes through with some of these women posters here which makes an objective reader recoil.

It's the way those tones are heard by the listeners which makes a listener shy away from facts.

This applies especially to Shayesta's angry remarks, belittling Alchemist where it is superfluous and insulting.

I am the one insulting here? Lemme guess; It was me who was generalising, criticizing, calling people immoral, calling people culture-less and calling people beghairat? That was all me?

But her voice conveys - true or not - that she is livid with fury at God for having put her in a less than desirable circumstance for her life.

Forget about my circumstances and just imagine how women back home (who don't even get what I got) are going through in their lives. Well, if you can call it 'life'.

He addressed Shayesta with the polite term of sister. While she treats him as an obnoxious kid.

I won't say you got reading problems because you simply got insecurity problems, which grows by each comment coming from those you disagree with. I am sure that otherwise even kids would have understood who is treating who in what way.

I see too much dislike of men coming through.

Just as much as insecurity and fear coming towards a woman's opinion.

It makes one wary of Shayesta's ability to make a clear judgment or
a calm, balanced case the way Alchemist did.

I am very, very calm with what I say. I am not hiding whatever incidents, I am not imagining things, I am not spitting hatred, I am not putting up restrictions on anyone's lives. I am doing none of these, so where do you see my anger?

[Fahd]

First, its our religion also and we both and countless others have as much a right to do or say what ever, as you think you have. What if Allah wants us to reform his outdated message and make it more palatable in the 21st century. Are you saying 'you don't allow that' for him. Are you bigger than Allah. What if Allah in his infinite freedom decides to flip, and calls prostitution a saintly endeavor and chastity a sin. Who are you to argue.

Doing nothing and letting our religion die is slander to some of us. What you call slander is reform to others.

We can argue about Islam, Quran, Muhammad, Mullah Umar, Snoop Doggy Dog or who ever else we wish to argue about. If it effects our culture and livelihood.

Whether Toramana is married, single, saint, or peghambar, means nothing on a forum where ideas are being discussed not his life. Stick to the debate by avoiding personal expression of despair.

go on and say what u would like to say about the prophet if u dare !! ?

and who the hell are u to say that '' What if Allah wants us to reform his outdated message and make it more palatable in the 21st century.''
is there any one would agree with he's post else the brainwashed who did thanked him !!

lol if allah want u and ur ppl to make islam more palatable in this 21st century allah would send Revelation to one of u lol or any one or there is a one who had Revelation ? *astghferallah*

allah said in quran :
قال تعالى: {اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم وأتممت عليكم نعمتى ورضيت لكم الأسلام دينا}
This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor unto you, and have chosen for you as religion AL- ISLAM.


shame on you and on who did thanked ur post


im so sorry shayesta khoreh for the misunderstood
forgivness

[Catya Sher]

Thanks Manzareh and Alchemist and others who are bringing out the real problems here.

Shayesta wrote a bunch of nonsense back to me which made no sense.
I took Logic and Philosophy at the nation's top ranked liberal arts university to bolster my abilities in this realm of logical argument.

This doesn't make me expert but I have a small feel for when someone is
ranting and raving and making NO sense.

The Roshina-Shayesta-dzj Network makes rude jabs without ever SAYING ANYTHING substantive !

I'm glad people are finally uniting to expose them.

They make PF women look like nasty first graders.
The exact opposite of the impression they try to wow their admirers with of marching to the drum of the latest 'women's rights' arguments.

I also don't care for their cheap style of talking : Roshina used to try to fling around MANLY swear words to sound masculine and tough.

However, if one can hardly make a post without incorporating the expression "Hell" - believe me, you will be sure to have an affinity with that place.
That word should never be used carelessly.
She has stopped that, thank God.
It cleans up the Forum.

But together with Shayesta's irritating tone, cheap language like "ain't no" to sound cool I suspect, I see no reason to give ANY of them the time of day.

Alchemist saw right through these people. Their posts have nothing to do with LOGICAL argument.
They rely on heavy emotional manipulation, generating dust storms of negativity MEANT to blind the eyes and ears of readers.
A lot of the women are fooled.
-Gulalai I wasn't meaning you at all - "They" referred to Roshina's rants. Not to silent observers, some of whom I LAUDED in earlier posts !

I'm glad to see the men here are not. Many of them emerge as admirable; whereas this bevy of women is making Afghan women and supporters like faye look like idiots ! No offense.

Alchemist & Scimitar before him were right; Why on earth is faye here?
Scimitar said she was a 'troll' ; I wonder if she's some sort of agent - why was she constantly pestering me trying to draw me out on American political questions, demanding i go to sites and look at them. I ignored her but
she seemed displeased. Maybe nothing beyond a late middle aged identity crisis.
But why would she come HERE to PF where she never talks about much to do with Afghan history, culture etc, but DOES derail every thread by edging carefully in and taking one of the men aside for an aimless chat which is irrelevant to the thread topic.
I would watch out for faye, she was hanging around my Profile for weeks before she started posting here. Then pretended to be a friend only to backstab.
Not a nice person.

[Manzareh]

Catya you have a skill of putting your exact feelings in writing with such imagination, when a reader reads your posts they cant help but enter your mind and listen to the thoughts, some of your thoughts are understood without you even mentioning them, all that probly doesnt make sence but i know you know exactly what i mean.

[Sheenka]

go bale bale

[Shayesta]

Thanks Manzareh and Alchemist and others who are bringing out the real problems here.

Which is?

Shayesta wrote a bunch of nonsense back to me which made no sense.

For a nonsense person with nonsense comments, I am surprised that some 'sensible' people even try to put sense into it to make me come (back) to my own senses. Anyway.

This doesn't make me expert but I have a small feel for when someone is
ranting and raving and making NO sense.

So do I and other 'nonsense creatures' like me, we nonetheless know how to reply accordingly to the thread instead of getting personal because so far, we can make a point.

I'm glad people are finally uniting to expose them.

They make PF women look like nasty first graders.

Someone's got experience........

The exact opposite of the impression they try to wow their admirers with of marching to the drum of the latest 'women's rights' arguments.

Nopes, you deliver your point of view, I deliver mine. Just like how you could laugh (or pretend to) at our comments, allow us to do the same regarding yours. I ain't showing any insecurity, 'some' should learn to do the same.

I also don't care for their cheap style of talking.

You care more than you think, and you know you do. And by the way, the language is called 'English'.

But together with Shayesta's irritating tone, cheap language like "ain't no" to sound cool I suspect, I see no reason to give ANY of them the time of day.

That's the best thing to do if you got no idea what to deliver to the relating topics, because even I can get personal and bring forward anyone's 'cheapness'. Spare us both the time and effort.

They rely on heavy emotional manipulation, generating dust storms of negativity MEANT to blind the eyes and ears of readers. A lot of the women are fooled.

'A lot of women' ain't fooled, 'a lot of women' know what I am talking about and a very good example of that is the number of PM's I received after this thread. An honest person shouldn't even be afraid of women being fooled by 'cheap talks' anyway, and don't try to teach the women in here how she is fooled and how she ain't. They have got brains of their own, if they can fall for my 'nonsense' then so can they for yours.

I'm glad to see the men here are not. Many of them emerge as admirable; whereas this bevy of women is making Afghan women and supporters like faye look like idiots!

We ain't talking about circumstances of men here so I (and them lots who agree with me) don't give two flies about men disagreeing with me in a matter concerning females. I am nonetheless glad at least some men show understanding (Wrayun, Toramana, Zahed, etcetera). Don't worry, if 'nonsense females' can win 'admirers', then men ain't lacking many of them either.

[kakargirl]

Oh is Salhuddin Mi6 maseed? i didnt know that. hmmmmmmmmmmmm

yes wror he is m16 he exposed himself by mention nordic looks i realized straight away m16 maseed is back .

[Shayesta]

@Fahd
Thanks for pointing my 'thanks' out mate, didn't even notice I thanked him, LOL.

[kakargirl]

SALADIN,

How can a woman get divorced from a husband in a society like Afghanistans?

- You work towoards a society which is Islamic, thats how

Kakargirl is from the UK, she has never been to Afghanistan and witnessed the state of women there.

- Ovcourse shes been to AFG, infact i think she was born their if im not mistaken, either way your analysis is wrong

Women who dare to show their faces, when given the chance, get sprayed with acid, they get attacked, I dare you not to wear a Burqa in parts of Afghanistan,and you would be lynched and punished.

- Thats only in some places and in some places its the same thing in the west, women which dare to cover their faces are subjected to violence by the rest of society, they get beaten up and pissed on. I dare you to wear a Burqa in some parts England,Europe,America and you will be left in an allyway and torched. dont be so single minded.

Women suffer under silence and according to kakargirl who is just a child in the UK, thinks this means happy marriages and that men treat them with respect.

- Just because you think they suffer under silence, doesnt mean its true, you look at a women which is covered up and you think "mindless robot, what a boring women, why would she want to live like that?? CONCLUSION: shes suffering in silence!!" i would argue its on the contrary, do you want me post some statistics on the wife beatings by non muslims in the west? some of them suffer in silence too

The last time I remmeber a Afghan women being treated with respect in Afghanistan was before the 70's. after that, they were stoned in public, lashed in public, confined to their kitchens, prevented from working etc etc etc

- utter bullsh1t

Islam and Afghan tribalism mixed with backwardness has contributed to the state of women.

- utter bullsh1t

Its easy for those in the West to glorify their lives abroad, but why dont you go and spend time there as a women and taste reality.

- Many have, perhapse you should face your fears and do the same, your traumitized by something which has made you deluded to reality.

wror saluddin m16 is not worth debating with he hardly reads anything ect cant you see all women are just suffering from pashtun men and are being beaten night and day and m16 is the best man for them,and oh i for got my sister in afghanistan now in their 15th year of marriage suffering in silence ,for get him look at my sarcastic comment.

[Toramana]

Pashtun values are not a constant. In fact, no value system can be fixed. Values are created in response to needs and challenges a group faces in the environment in which it exists and emphasize human capacities that help the group enhance its chances of survival and cohesion/unity. As needs and values change, so also do the values.

For example, in the time of war, the capacity of aggression is much glorified (valued) because that is what is needed at that point of time. But in times of peace, mild and pacifistic behaviour is placed emphasis upon. That is because the warrior instinct has to be re-channeled in the interest of the society. Similarly, where people have lavish time but less affluence, hospitality is much admired. But when society becomes more dynamic and work-centeric, hospitality ceases to be a higher value.

Society with low-level productive capacity are more tight-net in terms of social relatioins. Such societies exihibit a high degree of interdependence and are charcterized by strong family bonds and cohesiveness. The reason is the narrow resource base of the society/family and pattern of resource ownership (elder of the family owns the property, the rest of the family members are dependent on him). Obedience and traditionism (acceptance of elders' decisions and wisdom) is much valued in such a society.

In aggrerian and tribal cultures, women piety is much emphasized. This value has roots in the interests of the elite (who control resources). If women of the elite would start marrying of their own free will, that will ultimately cause the disintegration of the the family or clan and its fortune.

I think tradional Pashtun values are hospitality, valour, liberty, competitiveness, egalitarianism, endurance, strength, manliness/hardiness, honor and self-respect etc.

[qunduz92]

kakar khorakay, these people are simply envious of you. don't worry about them. they have no life in reality thats why they come here to gang up, like the witches that they are, on people who seem vulnerable to them.
you have my support khoray along with that of the majority of people here. you a true drana pakhtana and are just like the drane pakhtane from back home. pakhtana back home would praise you but the opposite is true for the baddies that are ganging up.