What are real Pakhtana values?

[Gulbabo]

Alchemist i agree in our entire barakzais as far as i can see there has not been a single divorce to this day , nor are the women opressed or under mens thumbs ,actually they are strong women and the men treat them just fine with respect and dignity, my mother is more stricter than my father and brothers all put togeather its the women in our house hold who make the rules and run the house , and its the women that make everything more stricter in our house hold and some are highly educated but the attititude is very strict conservative, got to get back to uni work thats all i hd to say.

Salam Kakargirl. I would like to ask you a question in regards to your statement about divorce. i would appreciate it if you could answer these so i would know where you are coming from.

1. Do you consider asking for a divorce a sin? Do you know if divorce is against Islam or is it supported by Islam under certain circumstances.

2. What do you consider a happy marriage to be,
a) a marriage that didn't end up in a divorce and the couple stayed together for 30+ years untill death do them apart.

b) a marriage that the couple stayed together forever because of being happy to be married to each other.

3. what are the pre-requisites of asking for a divorce, and does Afghan society provide the means for women to be in a position to even consider divorce as an option.

If you can't answer the above questions, please let me know I will try to answer them for you.

and as far as the women in your family are concerned, they are not unique.. most pashtanas are strict in every family. it has got to do with their upbringing.

[kakargirl]

[QUOTE=Gulbabo;370218]Salam Kakargirl. I would like to ask you a question in regards to your statement about divorce. i would appreciate it if you could answer these so i would know where you are coming from.
[QUOTE]salam gulbabo welcome to the forum.
1. Do you consider asking for a divorce a sin? Do you know if divorce is against Islam or is it supported by Islam under certain circumstances.

Yes i know islam allows divorce , a woman can even take a khulah divorce ect ,i dont consider it a sin its their to end unhappy marriages.
2. What do you consider a happy marriage to be,
a) a marriage that didn't end up in a divorce and the couple stayed together for 30+ years untill death do them apart.
No i don't consider that as that would mean they stuck it out for the sake of , because in the 30 years so much could have happened
b) a marriage that the couple stayed together forever because of being happy to be married to each other.
Yes that i consider a happy couple who stayed togeather because they were happy ,but less not live in fairy land every happy couple has down days too thats just part of life , but the love is there even through those hard times .
3. what are the pre-requisites of asking for a divorce, and does Afghan society provide the means for women to be in a position to even consider divorce as an option. Well i'm from a very different family , royal lineage where things are quite different , yes you can ask for divorce but as i said we havn't had one yet so il have to research from my elders back home i know its not prefered but if things are bad then divorce is there .

If you can't answer the above questions, please let me know I will try to answer them for you. I can answer every question you put to me.

and as far as the women in your family are concerned, they are not unique.. most pashtanas are strict in every family. it has got to do with their upbringing.

Where did you read that mmm , if you read roshinas post she said their not like kakargirl non of the women are so i don't know what your talking about putting words togeather, iv been on this forum since november arguing that women back home and even in the west pastana are strict like me, in their up bringing so please read before you ask where did i say we are unique ect ,so my point you have just proven by confirming they are like me that pastanas are like me everywhere else except on this forum so thank you

[Roshina]

if you read roshinas post she said their not like kakargirl non of the women are so i don't know what your talking about putting words togeather, iv been on this forum since november arguing that women back home and even in the west pastana are strict like me, in their up bringing so please read before you ask where did i say we are unique ect ,so my point you have just proven by confirming they are like me that pastanas are like me everywhere else except on this forum so thank you

Guley, if you're arguing that women back home are strict conservative women like yourself, then you've been wasting your time all this time because no one can deny the fact that traditionally, like many other eastern society, we are a conservative people. However, a part of that fact is also that not *all* Pukhtun women are the same way or prefer the same lifestyles--yes, even those back home.

When did I say that "their not like kakargirl none of the women are"? If you really think I believe that no other Pukhtun woman lives a life like you, you have either not read any of my posts or have failed to understand what I've written. Kindly find me a post of mine, any post, that even close to implies that you're unique, you're different, you're nothing like other Pukhtun women because no other Pukhtun woman's like you, etc., etc.

I have stated, however, and quite clearly so, that ALL of the Pukhtun females who have replied to your post have expressed their preference of a lifestyle different from yours. The only people who think all Pukhtun women should be like you are Pukhtun males and non-Pukhtun women. The latter are outsiders, so we don't care much about their opinion, although they're welcome to keep on speaking; the former are appreciated for speaking, but the only men whose opinions we/I would prefer to respect and consider contemplating are our fathers, brothers, and husbands.

Again, I'll be waiting for you to find me at least one post of mine in which I've claimed that no other Pukhtun woman wants to live like you or lives like you. Heck, even some of my own cousins (back home) live the way you do -- but they're not given a choice, as the society is such, and not all are as happy as you claim to be. Some don't think it's important enough to be discussed, as they have other, more important things to dedicate their time to. And me, I've never, ever, ever even attempted to speak for others or claim that I represent anyone. I insist that neither you nor I represent Pukhtun women back home, particularly because of the privileges (e.g., internet, good education) that you and I have been blessed with -- and the time and space and opportunity that you and I are given to rant about something as unimportant as whether *another* woman is happy or not. I am sure if a woman from back home read this, she'd hang her head in shame for both of us and advise that we invest our time, energies, and efforts in something a little more useful.

P.S. I've been on this forum since the second day it was launched. That'd be early March 2010. You say you've been here since November 2010. Now, wait, why does this matter again? You wanna claim to know something about the people here, ka pa bal sa ke muqabla da, zarrgiya? I can't think of any female who's been here before Nov. 2010 who claimed that Pukhtun women, whether in the west or back home, are liberal or whatever the opposite of strict and conservative is. So, what was your point again? Gosh, so many questions ... read with some peace and without the idea that people are attacking you just because they don't wanna live the same way you live or something, and then your head will be clearer when you read and will therefore understand it better so you don't misread anything, kha?

Now, smile and relax and stop thinking everyone is here to attack you or be against you or prove you wrong or something.

[Gulbabo]

[QUOTE=kakargirl;370229][QUOTE=Gulbabo;370218]Salam Kakargirl. I would like to ask you a question in regards to your statement about divorce. i would appreciate it if you could answer these so i would know where you are coming from.

salam gulbabo welcome to the forum.
1. Do you consider asking for a divorce a sin? Do you know if divorce is against Islam or is it supported by Islam under certain circumstances.
Where did you read that mmm , if you read roshinas post she said their not like kakargirl non of the women are so i don't know what your talking about putting words togeather, iv been on this forum since november arguing that women back home and even in the west pastana are strict like me, in their up bringing so please read before you ask where did i say we are unique ect ,so my point you have just proven by confirming they are like me that pastanas are like me everywhere else except on this forum so thank you

Dear Kakargirl. The point that I am trying to make is that the divorce rate in Afghanistan does not represent happy marriage rate. You are telling me that no one in your family and entire Barkzai tribe, as far as you know, is not divorced, portraying it to be a happily ever after story. You said it yourself in your earlier post that all the women are treated with respect and dignity, love, and support, which is why no one has ended up in a divorce. can you seriously claim to know this about every marriage in your family?

Imagine this, just suppose, the women in your family were battered (khudai de na kawei), or abused, or mistreated, would they have the means to ask for a khula? Are they financially and/or emotionally independent to do so? many pashtoon families have this attitude that once you are married to someone, the only way for a woman to come out of her husband's home is in a coffin... that means the society has no place for a divorcee, making it seem like the worst sin on earth. Usually families don't accept such women back in to their home, let alone take care of their financial needs. so considering all the above factors, would u say a woman in our society has the choice to ask for a divorce in a dire situation? what about the law in Afghanistan... does it protect a woman's right? Do women back home even have enough courage to go to court? if not, why not? who is stopping them, what is making them so weak? who is not supporting them?

You consider yourself to be the true representative of all pashtoon women. you are strict on pashtoon codes and you follow it, right? what if you end up with an abusive husband who beats you up daily, he abuses you emotionally and physically. You can't live in such a circumstance and you end up asking for a divorce, would you say, would that be enough to label you as a bad pashtana? or is that living with an abusing husband and taking all the crap is how pashtana should live?

on a final note in this post, (i hope you think about my questions and answer them in a more comprehensive way), you belong to a royal family, you do not represent ordinary pashtoon women, because ordinary pashtoon women like myself, don't belong to royal families.

[kakargirl]

[QUOTE=Roshina;370232]Guley, if you're arguing that women back home are strict conservative women like yourself, then you've been wasting your time all this time because no one can deny the fact that traditionally, like many other eastern society, we are a conservative people. However, a part of that fact is also that not *all* Pukhtun women are the same way or prefer the same lifestyles--yes, even those back home.

When did I say that "their not like kakargirl none of the women are"? If you really think I believe that no other Pukhtun woman lives a life like you, you have either not read any of my posts or have failed to understand what I've written. Kindly find me a post of mine, any post, that even close to implies that you're unique, you're different, you're nothing like other Pukhtun women because no other Pukhtun woman's like you, etc., etc.

I have stated, however, and quite clearly so, that ALL of the Pukhtun females who have replied to your post have expressed their preference of a lifestyle different from yours. The only people who think all Pukhtun women should be like you are Pukhtun males and non-Pukhtun women. The latter are outsiders, so we don't care much about their opinion, although they're welcome to keep on speaking; the former are appreciated for speaking, but the only men whose opinions we/I would prefer to respect and consider contemplating are our fathers, brothers, and husbands.

Again, I'll be waiting for you to find me at least one post of mine in which I've claimed that no other Pukhtun woman wants to live like you or lives like you. Heck, even some of my own cousins (back home) live the way you do -- but they're not given a choice, as the society is such, and not all are as happy as you claim to be. Some don't think it's important enough to be discussed, as they have other, more important things to dedicate their time to. And me, I've never, ever, ever even attempted to speak for others or claim that I represent anyone. I insist that neither you nor I represent Pukhtun women back home, particularly because of the privileges (e.g., internet, good education) that you and I have been blessed with -- and the time and space and opportunity that you and I are given to rant about something as unimportant as whether *another* woman is happy or not. I am sure if a woman from back home read this, she'd hang her head in shame for both of us and advise that we invest our time, energies, and efforts in something a little more useful.

P.S. I've been on this forum since the second day it was launched. That'd be early March 2010. You say you've been here since November 2010. Now, wait, why does this matter again? You wanna claim to know something about the people here, ka pa bal sa ke muqabla da, zarrgiya? I can't think of any female who's been here before Nov. 2010 who claimed that Pukhtun women, whether in the west or back home, are liberal or whatever the opposite of strict and conservative is. So, what was your point again? Gosh, so many questions ... read with some peace and without the idea that people are attacking you just because they don't wanna live the same way you live or something, and then your head will be clearer when you read and will therefore understand it better so you don't misread anything, kha?

Now, smile and relax and stop thinking everyone is here to attack you or be against you or prove you wrong or something.[/QUOTElook roshina on this thread we found out the truth what the true feelings of women are the rest i dont need to argue as iv been told on this forum people are not like me , they live different and i wrote you on this thread that the women that are on this thread are like you the ones that thanked shysta are like you , but some quiet ones are not like you, and shishas my kind ,and in the real world i said they are like me majority, so thats it i have nothing to say i'v seen hatred from every female on here nothing can change that ever.

[unknownprince]

[QUOTE=kakargirl;370243]

Guley, if you're arguing that women back home are strict conservative women like yourself, then you've been wasting your time all this time because no one can deny the fact that traditionally, like many other eastern society, we are a conservative people. However, a part of that fact is also that not *all* Pukhtun women are the same way or prefer the same lifestyles--yes, even those back home.

When did I say that "their not like kakargirl none of the women are"? If you really think I believe that no other Pukhtun woman lives a life like you, you have either not read any of my posts or have failed to understand what I've written. Kindly find me a post of mine, any post, that even close to implies that you're unique, you're different, you're nothing like other Pukhtun women because no other Pukhtun woman's like you, etc., etc.

I have stated, however, and quite clearly so, that ALL of the Pukhtun females who have replied to your post have expressed their preference of a lifestyle different from yours. The only people who think all Pukhtun women should be like you are Pukhtun males and non-Pukhtun women. The latter are outsiders, so we don't care much about their opinion, although they're welcome to keep on speaking; the former are appreciated for speaking, but the only men whose opinions we/I would prefer to respect and consider contemplating are our fathers, brothers, and husbands.

Again, I'll be waiting for you to find me at least one post of mine in which I've claimed that no other Pukhtun woman wants to live like you or lives like you. Heck, even some of my own cousins (back home) live the way you do -- but they're not given a choice, as the society is such, and not all are as happy as you claim to be. Some don't think it's important enough to be discussed, as they have other, more important things to dedicate their time to. And me, I've never, ever, ever even attempted to speak for others or claim that I represent anyone. I insist that neither you nor I represent Pukhtun women back home, particularly because of the privileges (e.g., internet, good education) that you and I have been blessed with -- and the time and space and opportunity that you and I are given to rant about something as unimportant as whether *another* woman is happy or not. I am sure if a woman from back home read this, she'd hang her head in shame for both of us and advise that we invest our time, energies, and efforts in something a little more useful.

P.S. I've been on this forum since the second day it was launched. That'd be early March 2010. You say you've been here since November 2010. Now, wait, why does this matter again? You wanna claim to know something about the people here, ka pa bal sa ke muqabla da, zarrgiya? I can't think of any female who's been here before Nov. 2010 who claimed that Pukhtun women, whether in the west or back home, are liberal or whatever the opposite of strict and conservative is. So, what was your point again? Gosh, so many questions ... read with some peace and without the idea that people are attacking you just because they don't wanna live the same way you live or something, and then your head will be clearer when you read and will therefore understand it better so you don't misread anything, kha?

Now, smile and relax and stop thinking everyone is here to attack you or be against you or prove you wrong or something.[/QUOTElook roshina on this thread we found out the truth what the true feelings of women are the rest i dont need to argue as iv been told on this forum people are not like me , they live different and i wrote you on this thread that the women that are on this thread are like you the ones that thanked shysta are like you , but some quiet ones are not like you, and shishas my kind ,and in the real world i said they are like me majority, so thats it i have nothing to say i'v seen hatred from every female on here nothing can change that ever.

I can't understand how you guys are so obsessed with kakargirl khorey. Let me guess, you have messaged her friends here, and probably are trying to get them to join you in these childish antics.

[kakargirl]

[QUOTE=Gulbabo;370237][QUOTE=kakargirl;370229][QUOTE=Gulbabo;370218]Salam Kakargirl. I would like to ask you a question in regards to your statement about divorce. i would appreciate it if you could answer these so i would know where you are coming from.


Dear Kakargirl. The point that I am trying to make is that the divorce rate in Afghanistan does not represent happy marriage rate. You are telling me that no one in your family and entire Barkzai tribe, as far as you know, is not divorced, portraying it to be a happily ever after story. You said it yourself in your earlier post that all the women are treated with respect and dignity, love, and support, which is why no one has ended up in a divorce. can you seriously claim to know this about every marriage in your family? yes we have no divorce at all through out and no woman has been abused ect,well it might be hard for you to believe but my brother barakzai abdali can even tell you that as he treats his wife like a queen him self my 5 brothers treat their wifes really well.

Imagine this, just suppose, the women in your family were battered (khudai de na kawei), or abused, or mistreated, would they have the means to ask for a khula? Are they financially and/or emotionally independent to do so? many pashtoon families have this attitude that once you are married to someone, the only way for a woman to come out of her husband's home is in a coffin... that means the society has no place for a divorcee, making it seem like the worst sin on earth. Usually families don't accept such women back in to their home, let alone take care of their financial needs. so considering all the above factors, would u say a woman in our society has the choice to ask for a divorce in a dire situation? what about the law in Afghanistan... does it protect a woman's right? Do women back home even have enough courage to go to court? if not, why not? who is stopping them, what is making them so weak? who is not supporting them?if this ever had happened 1st of ll our men financialy put a good amount of money for his wife after the wedding just incase something happens to him , then the father of the girl gives a good amount too so fianacially a girl is stable just a few months ago my father is very old so he took my mother with him to hsbc bank to put a very large amount of money in her name the manager asked my mother where she got the money from did she work ect my mum said no , my husband gave it to me the english woman just sat and said i wish i had a husband that would do that let me not work let me spend time with my kids and pay the bills him self .

You consider yourself to be the true representative of all pashtoon women. you are strict on pashtoon codes and you follow it, right? what if you end up with an abusive husband who beats you up daily, he abuses you emotionally and physically. You can't live in such a circumstance and you end up asking for a divorce, would you say, would that be enough to label you as a bad pashtana? or is that living with an abusing husband and taking all the crap is how pashtana should live? if i did i would be back home and my father would support me if that ever happened if my future husband turned out like that, and after my father my brothers would its a family system thats there just incase .

on a final note in this post, (i hope you think about my questions and answer them in a more comprehensive way), you belong to a royal family, you do not represent ordinary pashtoon women, because ordinary pashtoon women like myself, don't belong to royal families.[/QUOTEwell the royal part is true but in other ways i do represent them thats my own , so a question before i stop do you represent them ?

[kakargirl]

[QUOTE=unknownprince;370263]

I can't understand how you guys are so obsessed with kakargirl khorey. Let me guess, you have messaged her friends here, and probably are trying to get them to join you in these childish antics.

i bet this gulbabo from the way your posting your someone off here with a fake account , whos come on here to back up your sisters i think theres enough of you ,with out making fake account give it a rest and get over it , i refuse to answer anything you ask or say you know too much about me to be new, so stop wasting my time i have exam been up now 48 hours .

[kakargirl]

The only one like me on here is qunduz92 and shisha is great enough said .

[*Mahzala*]

Pakhto ke wayu kana che, me waya pe cha che rabashi pe ta. A strong believer of this, and have always refrained from ghate khabere kawel, something this thread is full of. A lot of the views boasted here can't be expressed in the same way in a lot of places, especially those places where our traditionalists have the loudest voices, among our men and older women, who have the knowledge and wisdom and are not emotionally unintelligent, those places all us women call home.

[Alchemist]

Roshina, Faye and DaZohraJamboree demonstrate the fact that women lack logic.

A 1000+ word essay just to say that "Not everyone is like you, majority are like me, majority are not happy,"
First of all, what proof do you have for making any of those statements? Of course not everyone is like this or like that..so don't kid your self into thinking that you have a better argument just because you are stating the obvious.


Secondly, "some" of them say that non-pashtoons, like myself, can't tell what values pashtuns should have.
Interesting that this is coming from a muslima reformist, and another moderate muslima. As far as I know pashtoon culture cannot contradict the teachings of the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him. If anything they are derived from those Principles expounded by NON PASHTOONS..."Abrahamic". So if we go by your lack logic, then the "opinion" of The Arab Prophet (pbuh) also doesn't count for much either. Which makes sense, since everything you argue for is against his teachings too.

My recommendation ladies. Since you are still in school, take some logic courses. You need it.

[faye]

which school we talking about alchemist? the 'alchemist school of misplaced assumptions'

[Alchemist]

which school we talking about alchemist? the 'alchemist school of misplaced assumptions'

No, Faye's school of lies and deceptions.


At least in my school everyone knows what they are getting into.

Who knows what you are or what you believe in. Agnostic? Hippie? Bored? ...lords knows. One day you are 45, another day 69. One day you are muslim another day kafir. One day a staunch feminist, another day a conservative...still haven't found your place on planet earth?

take a break ol gal. These forums won't help you.

[Baygham]

Toramana,

I respect you as an elder.

But don't slander my religion.

When I was there, you had the chance to debate me on religion. But you told me there that you exaggerate your claims to bring hype to the forum because it get's boring for you.

Seriously. If this is how shallow your views are about Islam then I feel sorry for you.

You should look at what platform you are standing before you try to push me.

That is right. You don't have one!
How convenient.

It is like watching a bum ridicule a home owner for paying mortgage.

By the way. Are you married? Do you have kids?
Thought so.

Maybe you and faye should hook up. It's still not late to give your life some meaning.

Next time you want to argue about Islam. Quote me the Quran. It is the foundation of Islam. Back your haphazard wild guess on real evidence. Instead you blow gas and say whatever you feel is what is Islam.

And please don't talk about MORALS.

You are an engineer. Stick to what you know.

Leave that for the philosophers who have had a harder time trying to define it.

First, its our religion also and we both and countless others have as much a right to do or say what ever, as you think you have. What if Allah wants us to reform his outdated message and make it more palatable in the 21st century. Are you saying 'you don't allow that' for him. Are you bigger than Allah. What if Allah in his infinite freedom decides to flip, and calls prostitution a saintly endeavor and chastity a sin. Who are you to argue.

Doing nothing and letting our religion die is slander to some of us. What you call slander is reform to others.

We can argue about Islam, Quran, Muhammad, Mullah Umar, Snoop Doggy Dog or who ever else we wish to argue about. If it effects our culture and livelihood.

Whether Toramana is married, single, saint, or peghambar, means nothing on a forum where ideas are being discussed not his life. Stick to the debate by avoiding personal expression of despair.

[salahuddin]

Does criticising Islam means we slander it? Alchemist, we live in a free world, its the age of information, everyone has eveyr right to cricism Islam, no need to go all Dictator on us all. Violence against those who question Islam will no longer suceed.

Regarding the Topic,

It really depends on what you mean by Real values. I think Pakhtana, should be encouraged to work within society, to help others regardless of their faith, oppose extremism, respect their elders etc.