For Pashto Purists

[یاسمینه]

Let's try to deal with Pashto words I am sure it will lead to essential debate

I wonder what do you think about origins of the following words:
دښمن (enemy)
سونډک (cloth for straining sour milk)
بالښتک (little pillow)
چې (conjunction)
ژوند لیک (biography)
ورېښم (silk)

[Sarbani]

The word دښمن seems like a Persian loanword. There really isn't a unique Pashto equivalent to that term?

As for the others, I have no remote idea about their origins. They seem pure Pashto. Do you have any thoughts on their origins you'd like to share?

[Badlun]

Are you interested in the etymology of these listed words or you want to make here a glossary of pure Pashto words?

[یاسمینه]

None of above. I propose a discussion in which we can jointly explore different words, try to determine where the boundary between a native and loanword is, what makes that a loanword become a native one...

[Badlun]

Good let us continue.
Tughandey
= rocket.
Roghtoon=Hospital
Pohantoon
= University

I see all these pure Pashto words not a loan words in any form.

[Badlun]

Let's try to deal with Pashto words I am sure it will lead to essential debate

I wonder what do you think about origins of the following words:
دښمن (enemy)
سونډک (cloth for straining sour milk)
بالښتک (little pillow)
چې (conjunction)
ژوند لیک (biography)
ورېښم (silk)

Duxman and Rexam seem to to be non Pashto words but may be Persian has borrowed it from Pashto and not vice versa. zhwand leek is a compound word and both leek and zhwand seem to be pure Pashto but in Hindi we see lekhna for leek or writing. Che is sued in Persian but a question word(what) not as a conjunction.

[HalloIsBack]

just for info
soviet soldiers used to call afghan fighters as duhi (russian word for soul in plural) derived from the word dushman
the fighters were fast, they came and disappear suddenly, also they were dressed liek normal people so soviets could not distinguish between fighters and non fighters

[Badlun]

just for info
soviet soldiers used to call afghan fighters as duhi (russian word for soul in plural) derived from the word dushman
the fighters were fast, they came and disappear suddenly, also they were dressed liek normal people so soviets could not distinguish between fighters and non fighters

Good linguistic and cultural information. This is the problem with Islamism that they call every Muslim a fighter against non Muslim, every Muslim an enemy and thus no organized armies but terrorists like Mujahideen or Taliban or Islamic State or Alqaeda.

In Pashtun society also every Pashtun is a fighter so a very lethal mixture of Islamism and Pashtunwali and that is why Islamism thrive better in tribal societies.

[یاسمینه]

دښمن - you both were right - it comes from Persian/ Dari دشمن . But I wonder to what extent the replacement of ش with ښ affects the perception of the دښمن as more "pashtunized" and if it is a step to "nativization".

سونډک - I found that سونډ (flax or hemp) is a pure Pashto word, while the suffix ک- (-ak; substantival suffix to form nouns from another nouns) is not Pashto one. In fact its origin is unknown. I don't know if the suffixes from foreign languages affects the status of the word.

بالښتک - as above, the بالښت comes from Dari بالشت . What I find interesting here is that the form بالشتک came to Dari from Pashto.

چې - comes from Dari چه . Previously, it was also the form used in Pashto. Now considered as incorrect.

ژوند لیک - to be honest, I don't know the origin of لیک , if it comes from Hindi/ Sanskrit or so. I want to draw attention to something else. It is a calque of Dari/Persian زندګی نامه . I wonder if such calques, with borrowed syntax and native words are classified as native or borrowed expressions.

ورېښم - it is a Persian ابریشم after phonological transformation. I don't know if such transformation of the original word still can be taken as a loanword or as native one.

[Badlun]

Good. What I appreciate that the word may seem at least pure Pashto not exactly the other langauge word. for example if University or Jamia or Danishgah is sued for pohantoon , then it will be adultery with Pashto.

If we know yaw, dwa dre of Pashto and instead we use eik, do , teen, or one two three or yak do se, then that will be playing foul with Pashto.

If you can say sama dah(its ok) , then why Pakistani Pashtuns say theek da?

Duxman is also translated as Tarboor , a pure Pashto word which also means cousin. Abresham has been sufficiently pashtunized as wrexam or rexam , so not a big deal of using it.

[EinDeutscher]

The word دښمن seems like a Persian loanword. There really isn't a unique Pashto equivalent to that term?

Dushman is not a Persian loanword it is a word descended from the Indo-European root dus [bad] and ménos [mind].

The word is present in:
Sanskrit: : दुर्मनस् [durmanas = bad mind], दुर्मनुष्य [durmanushya = villain], दुसनुष्य [dusmanushya]
Avestan: : 𐬛𐬎𐬱𐬨𐬀𐬥 [dushmanah = enemy]
Ancient Greek: δῠσμενής [dusmenḗs]
Middle Persian: 𐭣𐭥𐭱𐭬𐭭 [spelt: daleth-waw-shin-mem-nun; pronounced: dushman]
Serbian= душманин [dushmanin = enemy]

[Sarbani]

Dushman is not a Persian loanword it is a word descended from the Indo-European root dus [bad] and ménos [mind].

The word is present in:
Sanskrit: : दुर्मनस् [durmanas = bad mind], दुर्मनुष्य [durmanushya = villain], दुसनुष्य [dusmanushya]
Avestan: : ������������ [dushmanah = enemy]
Ancient Greek: δῠσμενής [dusmenḗs]
Middle Persian: ���������� [spelt: daleth-waw-shin-mem-nun; pronounced: dushman]
Serbian= душманин [dushmanin = enemy]

Just because it was an IE word doesn't mean it's native to Pashto. The shift from [s] to [ʂ] is well documented and occurs in many languages, not just Pashto. This seems like a clear case of that. The same has happened with other Persian words that became Pashto loan words such as /laʃkar/ (army) becoming /laʂkar/, /ʃiʃa/ (window) becoming /ʂiʂa/, and then /d̪ʊʃman/ becoming /d̪ʊʂman/. Unlike the other examples, these two are pronounced exactly the same with the exception of that one letter.

[EinDeutscher]

Just because it was an IE word doesn't mean it's native to Pashto.

You misunderstood what I was saying, friend.

I implied that the word is not likely borrowed from Farsi. But has evolved from Proto-Iranian [the speculated ancestor of all Iranian languages] which itself is has evolved from Proto-Indo-European Dus [bad] and Menos [mind].

Pashto is an Iranian language although many of its words are "pure" i.e. not connected with other languages probably developed by the ancient Pashto speakers through time.

[Sarbani]

You misunderstood what I was saying, friend.

I implied that the word is not likely borrowed from Farsi. But has evolved from Proto-Iranian [the speculated ancestor of all Iranian languages] which itself is has evolved from Proto-Indo-European Dus [bad] and Menos [mind].

Pashto is an Iranian language although many of its words are "pure" i.e. not connected with other languages probably developed by the ancient Pashto speakers through time.

Bro, I understood what you said. What I was saying was that the word came from Farsi to Pashto and not any other way. Just because it happens to be a proto-Iranic word doesn't mean that it's pure Pashto. The word dušman has gone the route of other Persian words that got converted to Pashto (laškar, šīša, etc.) with only one consonant slightly changing and the rest of the word remaining exactly the same. And lower in the thread, [MENTION=1034]Badlun[/MENTION] mentioned the pure Pashto word for enemy is "tarboor".

[EinDeutscher]

...What I was saying was that the word came from Farsi to Pashto and not any other way...

We can not be sure whether it came from Farsi [Western Iranian Language] to Pashto [Eastern Iranian Language] or whether it came from Avestan [North-Eastern Iranian Language or whether it came from Proto-Iranian [the theorised ancestor of all Iranian languages.