Predominance of Dari in Afghanistan/Kabul

[Dawezai]

Dawezai I agree with your list but what is your solution list.

We are not concluding this discussion yet. Once I am done with the causes, I will then give my suggestions.

How is Pashto treated in Kabul city?

Pashto is treated by the Dari speakers as it deserves to be treated. However, Pashto is treated by the Pashtuns not the way it deserves.

[Dawezai]

May I request the honorable members to kindly confine the discussion here to an academic debate and information sharing, please. Thanks.

[Dawezai]

Linguistic Reason

Pashto has many alphabets and sounds that are not found in Dari. It is, therefore, not easy for the Dari-speakers to utter those sounds thus, making it difficult for them to learn Pashto. I have personally, a number of times, seen Pashtuns ridiculing Dari-speakers for not being able to speak Pashto the right way. This discourages Dari-speakers to try learning Pashto. The result is that Pashtuns and non-Pashtuns turn out to speak Dari for the sake of linguistic convenience and the Dari-speakers take it for granted.

[Dawezai]

Lack of awareness on the part of Pashtuns about the importance of their mother tongue

There are many Pashtuns in Kabul who speak Dari at home. I have spoken to a number of them about it. One of my Pashtun students told me that all his siblings and his parents can speak Pashto but they don’t. He also told me that he usually argues with his family about not speaking Pashto to which the latter reply that both Pashto and Dari are their languages and there should be no difference made between the two. His parents believe that language is just a language and it should not be made into an issue. Unfortunately, this view is shared by many Pashtuns living in Kabul.

[Nick]

I wouldn't say Hindavi or Hindustani was "very much" similar to Dari though it did have loan words from Dari as well as other languages. And, for sure, Persian was imposed upon India by most of the Muslims rulers from Central Asia - again that was, in major, a dictate of history.


Today's Afghanistan itself had been part of Persia for a considerable period of time. So, the Iranians can well call it "deep inside the Persian land".

To understand the popularity of Dari we have to understand that Afghanistan had been ruled by Medes (728-550 BC), Achaemenid Persians (550-330 BC), Sassanids (230 BC-565 CE), Saffarids (863-900), Samanids (875-999), Ghaznavids (963-1187), Ghorids (1149-1212), Mongols (1252-1353), Timurids (1370-1506) and Mughals and Safavids (1501-1738), all of whom promoted Dari/Persian or its ancient form.

I wouldn't say Hindavi or Hindustani was "very much" similar to Dari though it did have loan words from Dari as well as other languages. And, for sure, Persian was imposed upon India by most of the Muslims rulers from Central Asia - again that was, in major, a dictate of history.

Dear Dawezai we are afghan and we know where central Asia is or to which region it applies to. But please clarify, the only rulers I know from central-Center of Asia were the Mughal rulers which started with huge number of Turkic Persian speakers under influence of Rich Babur. But they played a major rule in development of Urdu language not Hindawi.
BTW Amir Khisrow describes his language "Hindawi" therefore if you understand Amir Khisrow then you can understand Dari as well. In fact Hindawi was no differ then other dialects of Dari, and in being under afghan influence even Bukharian dialect was not so close to Dari as compared to Hindawi.

Today's Afghanistan itself had been part of Persia for a considerable period of time. So, the Iranians can well call it "deep inside the Persian land". To understand the popularity of Dari we have to understand that Afghanistan had been ruled by Medes (728-550 BC), Achaemenid Persians (550-330 BC), Sassanids (230 BC-565 CE), Saffarids (863-900), Samanids (875-999), Ghaznavids (963-1187), Ghorids (1149-1212), Mongols (1252-1353), Timurids (1370-1506) and Mughals and Safavids (1501-1738), all of whom promoted Dari/Persian or its ancient form.

After studying history and researching for the past 10 years I found your comment irrelevant and incorrect. Part of Persia?
Dari has nothing to due with Medes or Archemanids, yes Sassanids language "Parthian" did play a major rule in making Dari since before Islam, Herat/Kandahar/Faryab etc were under Sassanian control and western parts were independent at the time was under local governments such as famous Mahey Suri.

Saffarids (863-900), Samanids (875-999), Ghaznavids (963-1187), Ghorids (1149-1212)

Saffarid Dynasty Samanids dynasty , Ghaznivd empire and Ghurids empire have nothing to due with Iran, although Samanid did if you like to make land of Turan under banner of Iran, otherwise u have to agree that it was Syrian Ismailis that influenced late Samanids drunk/corrupted last Shah With Iran is associated with rise of many other empires/Dynasties mostly shia ie Buyid empire Sallarid dynasty , Justanids dynasty , Ziyarids dynasty, Tahirids Empire (sunni Arab Leadership),and famous Suljaqs empire (Sunni Turkic Leadership) and Khawarizm empire.

So Please stop associating native Afghan Hannifah Dynasties/empires and with Shia or native Iranian dynasties and empires.

even After Mongolian Era, Iran and Afghanistan fell under different umbrella such as In Iran, Chobanids, Jalayrids, Injuids, Muzaffarids, Sardabars, Shahbankara Safivads, Zend, Afsharids and their last empire Qajar. In Afganistan the Sayyeds, Ludis, Ghalaji, Timurid, Mughal, Hottaki and last Afghan empire Durani

[Dawezai]

Dear Dawezai we are afghan and we know where central Asia is or to which region it applies to. But please clarify, the only rulers I know from central-Center of Asia were the Mughal rulers which started with huge number of Turkic Persian speakers under influence of Rich Babur.

Demarcating CA has not been without controversy however, according to one definition Central Asia includes Mongolia, Tibet, northeast Iran , Afghanistan, Northern Areas and Pashtunkhwa, Kashmir and Ladakh, central-east Russia south of the Taiga, and the former Central Asian Soviet Republics. Rulers (the Mughals, the Ghurids, the Delhi Sultanate) who belonged to these areas promoted Persian. Urdu was only developed and promoted by the last Mughals.

But they played a major rule in development of Urdu language not Hindawi.

Hindavi/Hindawi/Hindustani is the mother of Hindi and Urdu languages.

BTW Amir Khisrow describes his language "Hindawi" therefore if you understand Amir Khisrow then you can understand Dari as well.

Amir Khusrow never called his Persian as Hindavi. He wrote in both the languages which should not be misunderstood by claiming that his language was Hindavi and that Hindavi was much like Dari. I am quoting two examples, of both Hindavi and Persian, from his poetry which are clearly distinct from each other.

Persian Poem of Amir Khusrow

کافر عشقم، مسلمانی مرا در کار نیست
ہر رگ من تار گشتہ، حاجت زُنار نیست
از سر بالین من برخیز ای نادان طبیب
دردمند عشق را دارو بہ جز دیدار نیست
ناخدا بر کشتی ما گر نباشد، گو مباش
ما خدا داریم ما ناخدا در کار نیست
خلق می گوید کہ خسرو بت پرستی می کند
آری! آری! می کنم! با خلق ما را کار نیست

Hindavi Poem of Amir Khusrow

छाप तिलक सब छीनी रे मोसे नैना मिलाइके
बात अजब कह दीनी रे मोसे नैना मिलाइके
प्रेम भटी का मदवा पिलाइके
मतवारी कर लीन्ही रे मोसे नैना मिलाइके
गोरी गोरी बईयाँ, हरी हरी चूड़ियाँ
बईयाँ पकड़ धर लीन्ही रे मोसे नैना मिलाइके
बल बल जाऊं मैं तोरे रंग रजवा
अपनी सी रंग दीन्ही रे मोसे नैना मिलाइके
खुसरो निजाम के बल बल जाए
मोहे सुहागन कीन्ही रे मोसे नैना मिलाइके
छाप तिलक सब छीनी रे मोसे नैना मिलाइके
बात अजब कह दीनी रे मोसे नैना मिलाइके
Chhāp tilak sab chīnī re mose nainā milāike
Bāt adham keh dīnī re mose nainā milāike
Prem bhaṭī kā madvā pilāike
Matvālī kar līnhī re mose nainā milāike
Gorī gorī baīyān, harī harī chuṛiyān
baīyān pakaṛ dhar līnhī re mose nainā milāike
Bal bal jāūn main tore rang rajvā
Apnī sī kar līnhī re mose nainā milāike
Khusro Nijām ke bal bal jaiye
Mohe suhāgan kīnhī re mose nainā milāike
Bāt adham keh dīnī re mose nainā milāike

Let us know if you find languages of the both these poems the same.

I will comment on your other points in a while however, my request is to please keep this thread for discussion on the topic under consideration only. We may possibly start another thread on discussing history.

[Dawezai]

Dawezai, I feel like many people are scared to learn Pashto because they argue that it's a very difficult language.

Do you agree that we should work on simplifiyin the language?

Girl/Wman= Jinay,Jinkay,Injaley,shaza,khaza

You are right. Pashto needs to be standardised. I believe Romanisation of Pashto is one way to get rid of the difficulties we are having with our language.

[Dawezai]

That is such a shameful response by your student, I would gave him a lecture on how our culture is based on our language.

Don't worry about the lecture as I have delivered it for you already. It is not that student's fault but that of his parents.

I understand the problem exists Dawezai, we can criticize it as much as we want. How about we bring forward solutions to resolve this situation.

We need to thoroughly analyse the issues first and then suggest remedies.

[Dawezai]

Lack of will and initiative on the part of Pashtuns to promote their language

I went to the Pashto Department in Kabul University to enroll myself for a PhD in Pashto linguistics. I was shocked to learn that no PhD was being offered at the Kabul University. I met three Pashto professors there who were all PhD doctors and asked them about the reason. They all told me the same story by saying that due to political compromise they couldn’t take the initiative as it would antagonize the Dari-speakers. I went to see the library of Pashto Department and found out that no Pashto books were available there. The only Pashto book that I could find was the Pashto translation of an Urdu book called “mawth kaa manzar”.

On the same day, the Pashtun students of Kabul University were staging a demonstration for the equality of Pashto language inside the campus. I got the chance to speak to the leader of the demonstration. He told me that the constitution of Afghanistan prescribes that if a Pashto book is taught then the medium of instruction should be Dari and if a book is in Dari then for it the medium of instruction should be Pashto but at the University only Dari books are taught in Dari. The student leader also told me that the teaching faculty of Kabul University is 70% Pashtun but they don’t want to do anything for their language.

[Nick]

Demarcating CA has not been without controversy however, according to one definition Central Asia includes Mongolia, Tibet, northeast Iran , Afghanistan, Northern Areas and Pashtunkhwa, Kashmir and Ladakh, central-east Russia south of the Taiga, and the former Central Asian Soviet Republics. Rulers (the Mughals, the Ghurids, the Delhi Sultanate) who belonged to these areas promoted Persian. Urdu was only developed and promoted by the last Mughals.

Hindavi/Hindawi/Hindustani is the mother of Hindi and Urdu languages.

Amir Khusrow never called his Persian as Hindavi. He wrote in both the languages which should not be misunderstood by claiming that his language was Hindavi and that Hindavi was much like Dari. I am quoting two examples, of both Hindavi and Persian, from his poetry which are clearly distinct from each other.

Persian Poem of Amir Khusrow

کافر عشقم، مسلمانی مرا در کار نیست
ہر رگ من تار گشتہ، حاجت زُنار نیست
از سر بالین من برخیز ای نادان طبیب
دردمند عشق را دارو بہ جز دیدار نیست
ناخدا بر کشتی ما گر نباشد، گو مباش
ما خدا داریم ما ناخدا در کار نیست
خلق می گوید کہ خسرو بت پرستی می کند
آری! آری! می کنم! با خلق ما را کار نیست

Hindavi Poem of Amir Khusrow

छाप तिलक सब छीनी रे मोसे नैना मिलाइके
बात अजब कह दीनी रे मोसे नैना मिलाइके
प्रेम भटी का मदवा पिलाइके
मतवारी कर लीन्ही रे मोसे नैना मिलाइके
गोरी गोरी बईयाँ, हरी हरी चूड़ियाँ
बईयाँ पकड़ धर लीन्ही रे मोसे नैना मिलाइके
बल बल जाऊं मैं तोरे रंग रजवा
अपनी सी रंग दीन्ही रे मोसे नैना मिलाइके
खुसरो निजाम के बल बल जाए
मोहे सुहागन कीन्ही रे मोसे नैना मिलाइके
छाप तिलक सब छीनी रे मोसे नैना मिलाइके
बात अजब कह दीनी रे मोसे नैना मिलाइके
Chhāp tilak sab chīnī re mose nainā milāike
Bāt adham keh dīnī re mose nainā milāike
Prem bhaṭī kā madvā pilāike
Matvālī kar līnhī re mose nainā milāike
Gorī gorī baīyān, harī harī chuṛiyān
baīyān pakaṛ dhar līnhī re mose nainā milāike
Bal bal jāūn main tore rang rajvā
Apnī sī kar līnhī re mose nainā milāike
Khusro Nijām ke bal bal jaiye
Mohe suhāgan kīnhī re mose nainā milāike
Bāt adham keh dīnī re mose nainā milāike

Let us know if you find languages of the both these poems the same.

I will comment on your other points in a while however, my request is to please keep this thread for discussion on the topic under consideration only. We may possibly start another thread on discussing history.

Those two poems are from wikipedia, and hold since when did Amir Khisrow wrote in Devangari script? and i never trust wiki stuff anyways so brother I won't buy this, cause it may have something to do with India vs Pakistan bs, besides what I meant to say and i have read it in a book that he himself rejected "Farsi" and said his tongue is hindawi. Since all of the books that I know were mostly either Arabic or Farsi, and therefore he rejecting Farsi due to some sanskirti words and few grammer differences, I knew it was same and that hindawi wanted to take her own shape. Amir Khisrow praising the word Hindawi means that Farsi has influenced Indian society before him. However many credit him to be the father of "hindawi".



^^^Besides those two poems are hard to compare cause its two different poems. LOL added with Devangari script sounds so Hindi to me? that was shocking when i first saw it in 2006. So I looked for a source, and I also went into library guess what a book published in 1926 with 800 pages most of Amir Khisrow which was not readable to me was all in Devangari, was it same, different, words replaced or not. I am not sure because i was not able to read devangari. After researching over the net I understand that many of his books were translated into devangari during British era, but i anyways i just want a reliable source.

From what I know of Hindawi and his book that I have read was a little difficult but nevertheless I understood it like I was reading Dari, not Hindi.

[Alia]

@ nick i like your statements :D

[khyaal]

Linguistic Reason

Pashto has many alphabets and sounds that are not found in Dari. It is, therefore, not easy for the Dari-speakers to utter those sounds thus, making it difficult for them to learn Pashto. I have personally, a number of times, seen Pashtuns ridiculing Dari-speakers for not being able to speak Pashto the right way. This discourages Dari-speakers to try learning Pashto. The result is that Pashtuns and non-Pashtuns turn out to speak Dari for the sake of linguistic convenience and the Dari-speakers take it for granted.

But, here in Occupied Pakhtunwa especially Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, we also have forgotten to pronounce words that contain specific pashto letters.
Btw, to ridicule one isn't always repelling in some matters, in our case here, derision has compelled even illiterate pashtuns to learn Urdu properly, and (sadly) most have learned it .

[Afghan_Soldier]

With all due respect to the intellectual discourse, but I do find alarmist opinionS especially regarding Afghanistan. If anything Pashu language is at its peak there, in Pashunkhwa, sadly, there is nothing to be alarmed about. With stability, and the role that communication plays, Pashunkhwa will also become cautious of their language. This site is example. Inshallah.

[Dawezai]

Those two poems are from wikipedia, and hold since when did Amir Khisrow wrote in Devangari script? and i never trust wiki stuff anyways so brother

Devanagari is just a script. Written in whatever script, they are still the poems of Amir Khusraw.

Da Afghan pa nang me watharhala thura
Nangyaalay da zamaaney Khushal Khattak yem

We can't reject the above verse not to be of Khushal Baba just because it's written in Romans and that Khushal Baba never wrote in Romans.

I don't trust Wikipedia too when it comes to an opinion but when they cite sources then we have to trust them. However, for your consideration I would like to refer you to the following:
Amir Khusrau's Garden of Cultural Plurality

I won't buy this, cause it may have something to do with India vs Pakistan bs,

How?

besides what I meant to say and i have read it in a book that he himself rejected "Farsi" and said his tongue is hindawi.

I am not arguing on whatever his language was. My only point is that he wrote in both the languages - Hindavi and Persian.

Since all of the books that I know were mostly either Arabic or Farsi, and therefore he rejecting Farsi due to some sanskirti words and few grammer differences, I knew it was same and that hindawi wanted to take her own shape. Amir Khisrow praising the word Hindawi means that Farsi has influenced Indian society before him. However many credit him to be the father of "hindawi".

Sorry, couldn't follow you here.

Besides those two poems are hard to compare cause its two different poems.

Compare the LANGUAGE of the two poems only.

added with Devangari script sounds so Hindi to me? that was shocking when i first saw it in 2006. So I looked for a source, and I also went into library guess what a book published in 1926 with 800 pages most of Amir Khisrow which was not readable to me was all in Devangari, was it same, different, words replaced or not. I am not sure because i was not able to read devangari.

Forget about the Devanagari scrip. Read it in the Romans given at the end of it.

After researching over the net I understand that many of his books were translated into devangari during British era, but i anyways i just want a reliable source.

The term 'translation' cannot be used here. The difference between 'translation' and 'transliteration' needs to be understood.

From what I know of Hindawi and his book that I have read was a little difficult but nevertheless I understood it like I was reading Dari, not Hindi.

Can you kindly quote some excerpts from his book you read? And, may you please give us the name of that book as well?

It would also be helpful if you could quote some poem of Amir Khusraw in Hndavi which sounds/looks like Persian.

[Dawezai]

Dawezai tell us about your university.

What is the status of Pashto. Since you live in Kabul is the mayor or governor doing anything for a change.

That's what we are discussing here. Doing something for Pashto is in the hands of Pashtuns. The state has given Pashto all the rights to be used and developed. We, the Pashtuns, need to start respecting our language.