Pukhto in Khyber Pakhtunkhwaa prior to Durrand - Urdu influence on Pashto or Reverse?

[Pukhtoon]

Before Durand line I think Pashto was only a spoken language never a written or formal official language and was influenced by Persian which was dominant in both present day Pakistan and Afghanistan.Urdu is a verey recent phenomenon like less than 200 years of its existence and its formal importance after the birth of Pakistan in 1947. Still it is not the offical language in Pakistan. It was after the influence of communism in Afghanistan that Pashto is getting importance in Afghanistan while Pashto is getting attention in Pakistan owing to the Pashtun nationalist parties like ANP and PMAP.

Words like theek(correct), acha(ok), mehrabani(thanks), and counting in Urdu numbers are some of the examples Pashtuns in Pakistan have been influenced. In Afghanistan mostly the technical terms are borrowed from Persian. Thats why Pakistani Pashtuns face problems in understanding the Persian loaded Pashto written or spoken in Afghanistan. BBC Pashto is only popular in Afghanistan and not in Pakistan.

Another difference is the 100 % pure Pashto in Afghanistan where words like brekhna leek is used for email and tughandey for rocket and pohantoon for university while these words are not known amongst Pakistani Pashtuns.

The main reason is that Pashto is not at all written or read in Pakistan while it is written and read in Afghanistan. But paradoxically Pashto Academy in Peshawar is more active than any of its counterpart in Afghanistan. Pashto film industry, dramas, music etc are also more dynamic in Paksitan than Afghanistan.However internet web pages are more active in Afghanistan.

As I wrote somewhere else keeping in view the reality of no possibility of any political unity, the only path remains is non political. I am extremely worried about the increasing distance between the Pashtuns of Afghanistan and Pakistan. If some serious efforts are not taken Pashtuns on both sides of the border, Pashtuns will deem themselves as different races or ethnicity. Yes races or ethnicity because already they belong to two different nations, Pakistani and Afghanistani or afghan.

Pashtuns on both sides of the Durand line belong to one family, one blood, one language and one culture, one past but now being part of two different countries, distance is increasing between them. Pashtuns in Pakistan are coming under influence of Punjabis and Urdu speakers and Pashtuns in Afghanistan are coming under influence of Tajiks and Persian speakers.

We have to work and suggest that how Pashtuns on both sides can be culturally and linguistically united? Their cultural and linguistic unity is the only possibility as their political unity is now an unattainable dream. We have to devise pragmatic strategies that how distance between Pashtuns on both sides of the Durand line can be reduced and they may come together at least culturally psychologically and linguistically if not politically. Pashtuns must be realistic in their approach. Some Pashtuns on both sides want merger of Pashtuns areas which is impossible as how Afghanistan will leave its non -Pashtun areas to be merged with Pashtun areas for a greater Pashtunistan. This is impossible, and how Pakistan will let its Pashtun areas to be separated, that would be too impossible for Pakistan.

As the distance between the Pashtuns living in Afghanistan and Pakistan is increasing we must learn from nations who speak the same language and have the same culture but are politically different and belong to different nations or countries and are citizens of different states. For example all Arab, Spanish, German, French ,English speaking people are not the citizens of the same countries but psychologically ,linguistically , culturally , economically they have enormous ties and try to develop linkages which further strengthen their bonds

We Pashtuns on both sides of the border if cant become one nation politically at least can feel one ethnic group and sons of the same father living in different houses . We must encourage connections with each other by marriages, conferences and friendships. We must feel near to an Afghan Pashtun than to a Pakistani Panjabi and vice versa

The concern is also about the increasing distance of Pashto language spoken in Pakistan and Afghanistan. There is a marked difference in vocabulary of the Pashto spoken in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Afghanistani Pashto is influenced by Persian while Pakistani Pashto by Urdu or English. Here the solution is using pure Pashto words neither of Persian nor Urdu nor English. This will bridge the linguistic difference

However, the difference of accent is geographical not political. It does not depend on Pakistan or Afghanistan. It’s not East West. Its North –South. There arer two main dialects in Pashto language. Hard dialect spoken in areas like Peshawar, Mardan, Swat, Malakand, Dir, Kohat, Paracinar, Jalalabad, Bajawar, Mohmand, Khyber,etc mainly in northern part of Pashto speaking areas. Soft dialect is spoken in Southern areas like Banu, Karak, Waziristan, Baluchistan, Qandahar, Paktya etc

I have rarely seen an Afghan Pashtun who intensely hate a Pakistani Pashtun or a Pakistani Pashtun who abhor an Afghan Pashtun but the gap between Pashtuns living in these two countries is really increasing day by day and which can be seen in various internet based forums and other social events of mixed communities specially in foreign countries. Even in Pakistan a Pashtun from Afghanistan is some times called Kabaley or kabuli with a tone of humiliation and Afghan Pashtuns consider the Pakistani Pashtuns to be lesser Pashtuns.

Pashtuns are responsible as well as only solvers for all their problems including the increasing gap between the Pashtuns on both sides of the border. I wish the bridge of the distance between Pashtuns on two sides of the Durand line should be minimized not further intensified. We should become realist and instead of talking or struggling for imaginative ideals like Loy Afghanistan or Pashtunistan may struggle for the cultural, linguistic, psychological and economic unity of Pashtuns living any where in the world.

Very well put - I definitely agree with you and think in 100 years or so, the two sides will not really consider themselves the same or if they do, in name only. I think it's like that now to be honest, both sides, like you mentioned, have derogatory stereotypes about the other largely drummed up by other ethnic groups. I know many on the Pakistani side consider Afghan Pukhtoons all Kabuli in a derogatory sense, i.e., Persian and Afghan Pukhtoons consider the Pakistani Pukhtoons mixed Punjabi so it goes both ways. It's not an overt hate like you mentioned, but when push comes to shove, these types of things are said and just goes to show if these types of thoughts are in people's heads, then the rift is already there.

You do make a good point though, a formal, standardized Pukhto, like they have a Modern Standard Arabic, that all Arabs learn in school might bridge that gap. The problem, however, is that people don't really seem to care about the issue and there are other factors in play given the regional dynamic where its in other people's best interest that the Pukhtoons do, in fact, consider themselves distinct and different peoples. They become a much more powerful force in the region if they considered themselves as one people so it wouldn't make sense for a country like Pakistan, for example, to see that happen and depending on the outcome of the U.S. troop withdrawal, probably similar situation in Afghanistan.

Your comment about the Pukhto Academy in Pakistan is definitely a good one as well, I think because Pukhto was getting so disenfranchised and discriminated against, some people figured Pukhto would probably die in Pakistan if someone didn't do something so at least some people cared enough about it to set-up an academy. If there were more people like that I think the region as a whole, setting aside the language and culture, would be much more settled and peaceful.

[Karachi]

I think the main reason Urdu influenced many languages is mainly because much of the religious literature in south asia was in Urdu, also not to mention poetry.

[Pukhtoon]

I think the main reason Urdu influenced many languages is mainly because much of the religious literature in south asia was in Urdu, also not to mention poetry.

Agreed - same with Farsi which dominated the region for so long and was a mandatory language in India/Pakistan for some time. I think it has more to do with the schooling though. Without schooling there is basically zero Pukhto except when your talking at home or outside. So its informal and loan words get introduced and because there is no formal schooling, you end up not knowing what the real word is after a while.

[Badlun]

zama dera khoga wrora sta khabarey laka malghalarey me pa zrha laka shakarey lagi

I see Pashtuns talking about Pashtunistan or Loy Afghanistan (Greater Afghanistan) but I just see them talking no body is taking any action. These are all imaginative plans which have nothing to do with the reality so far. That’s why the only reality is the status quo, where we are. In the present circumstances nothing will change.

Pakistan will never let its Pashtun parts to be ceded and Afghanistan is never asking for it or doing any thing for it. For Pashtunistan or Loy Afghanistan I don’t see any serious movement neither in Pakistan nor in Afghanistan.

Pashtun nationalist parties in Pakistan like ANP and PMAP are involved in pure Pakistani politics. They swear by the constitution of Pakistan and never talk of separation from Pakistan and joining Loy Afghanistan or creating Pashtunistan.

I don’t see any mass movement in the streets of Pakistan for Pashtunistan or Loy Afghanistan. These are only internet slogans by very few Pashtuns but in the real life there is no struggle going on for these goals.

I don’t know any party or group like Baloch Liberation Army fighting in the real sense for any independent Pashtunistan or Loy Afghanistan. Pashtun nationalists talk only of Pashtun rights within Pakistan but never talk of dismembering Pakistan and creating a new entity.

We don’t see any struggle on the pattern of Bengalis for Bangladesh. Rather many Pakistanis are quite happy in Pakistan and will never look to the worn torn Afghanistan as their abode.

The same situation can be witnessed in Afghanistan. We don’t have a single party or group struggling for Loy Afghanistan or Pashtunistan. Afghan government never asks for Pashtunistan or Loy Afghanistan from Pakistan and will never sacrifice its non Pashtun parts for any pure Pashtun state. All non Pashtuns are considered equal Afghans and Afghanistan will never leave its non Pashtuns Afghans for Pashtuns of Pakistan.

The only reality emerges in this scenario is the status quo. But it does not mean Pashtuns cease to be the same race or ethnic group. They remain brethren in Pashtunwali and speakers of the same language.

[Pukhtoon]

zama dera khoga wrora sta khabarey laka malghalarey me pa zrha laka shakarey lagi

I see Pashtuns talking about Pashtunistan or Loy Afghanistan (Greater Afghanistan) but I just see them talking no body is taking any action. These are all imaginative plans which have nothing to do with the reality so far. That’s why the only reality is the status quo, where we are. In the present circumstances nothing will change.

Pakistan will never let its Pashtun parts to be ceded and Afghanistan is never asking for it or doing any thing for it. For Pashtunistan or Loy Afghanistan I don’t see any serious movement neither in Pakistan nor in Afghanistan.

Pashtun nationalist parties in Pakistan like ANP and PMAP are involved in pure Pakistani politics. They swear by the constitution of Pakistan and never talk of separation from Pakistan and joining Loy Afghanistan or creating Pashtunistan.

I don’t see any mass movement in the streets of Pakistan for Pashtunistan or Loy Afghanistan. These are only internet slogans by very few Pashtuns but in the real life there is no struggle going on for these goals.

I don’t know any party or group like Baloch Liberation Army fighting in the real sense for any independent Pashtunistan or Loy Afghanistan. Pashtun nationalists talk only of Pashtun rights within Pakistan but never talk of dismembering Pakistan and creating a new entity.

We don’t see any struggle on the pattern of Bengalis for Bangladesh. Rather many Pakistanis are quite happy in Pakistan and will never look to the worn torn Afghanistan as their abode.

The same situation can be witnessed in Afghanistan. We don’t have a single party or group struggling for Loy Afghanistan or Pashtunistan. Afghan government never asks for Pashtunistan or Loy Afghanistan from Pakistan and will never sacrifice its non Pashtun parts for any pure Pashtun state. All non Pashtuns are considered equal Afghans and Afghanistan will never leave its non Pashtuns Afghans for Pashtuns of Pakistan.

The only reality emerges in this scenario is the status quo. But it does not mean Pashtuns cease to be the same race or ethnic group. They remain brethren in Pashtunwali and speakers of the same language.

Your very kind wrorah, I usually abstain from involving in these types of discussions because people generally are not as polite, well-spoken, and moadab like yourself. It's good to meet Pukhtoons who have not lost themselves.

To your point, though, it's true. To be frank, from what I understand, on the Pakistan side the Pukhtoons are happier because the quality of life is much better, they receive more money, more aid, and a much better developed country.

On the Afghan side, truthfully, given the circumstances there, the situation is much more bleak with an unstable economy and safety issues, including the starving, the orphans, etc., and so political movements like this are the least of many people's concern. Although on the Afghan side, although they aren't serious about taking any action to reclaim Khyber Pukhtunkhwaa, you do here people quite often say Sarhad is part of Afghanistan anyways, referring to the historical, natural, boundary lines

To compound that issue, there are other factors at work that everybody knows, i.e., it wouldn't be in Afghanistan or Pakistan's other ethnic groups best interest to have solidarity amongst the Pukhtoons because they would be a much larger homogenous group that would tip the scales in their favor by population in Pakistan and make them the overwhelming majority in Afghanistan. As such, popular sentiment for such activities are usually met with negativity and many of the Pukhtoons on both sides end up believing the negative rhetoric other people give them about their own tribesmen. Also, from what I understand, there are many natural resources in the Khyber Pakhtunkhwaa area, notably waterways and electricity production that are crucial to Pakistan's development which makes the area precious to them.

I think the two things people could do now, very easily, to bring the parties closer versus farther is through media and a Modern Standard Pukhto. Through media, if television, magazines, books, etc. are disseminated, specifically Television, that shows that same content, the same news, the same history, and same cultural type programming on both sides of the Durrand, then they would be exposed to one another constantly and even if they haven't ever stepped to the other side of the Durrand, they would feel some brotherhood or similarity with one another.

There is also a great deal of nostalgia amongst some I have spoken to on the Pakistan side about Afghanistan or Afghans generally and that's something people could play up. Moreover, just the fact that despite what anyone tells you, Afghan, does, in fact mean Pukhtoon and Afghanistan = Pukhtoonistan. All the king's, presidents, wars, you name it, have involved the Pukhtoons. You can be a citizen of Afghanistan and say I'm Afghan but Afghan doesn't mean any ethnic group, people may construe that to be as such now, but Afghan means Pukhtoon. Non-Pukhtoons still call Pukhto "Afghani" and say oh such and such is "Awghaan (Afghan)" meaning they are Pukhtoon. So Pukhtoons on the Pakistan side could have a country where the history, culture, and name itself refers to them rather then having to share an identity with a country whose majority does not have the same history, culture, or language as you and even putting all that aside, they quite frankly don't care much for them. They have treated them very poorly historically, say very negative things about them, don't respect their language, culture, etc. That's what I quite don't understand about why there isn't more of a push to incorporate with Afghanistan given the shoddy treatment, but maybe its simply not feasible or they are respected more then I give Pakistan credit for.

As to the Modern Standard Pukhto, I think it can be accomplished on the Afghan side and taught in schools because Pukhto already has a long-standing history of being in the schools, work, government, etc. However, on the Pakistan side, it would be a much harder sell. The Pukhtoons of Pakistan need to demand more Pukhto language instruction in their schooling and if they are able to accomplish that, then they might be able to implement the teaching of a Modern Standard Pukhto. Knowing such a Pukhto would not only bring together people across the Durrand, but even Pukhtoons from different areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan.

I just always find it so ironic that, truthfully, if much of the unnatural boundaries in the region, specifically the Durrand line were abolished, much of the issues of inter-ethnic, religious, cultural etc. problems would go away and be beneficial to all parties, internally and externally.

[Badlun]

Let us take some practical steps in this regard for example:

1. Let us call our language Pashto in international fora like this one(not pukhto, pakhto, pushto, afghani etc) and the people Pashtun(not pukhtun, pakhtoon, pukhtoon, afghan, pushtun etc). In local use yes we can spell and pronounce the way it is used traditionally.

I see Pashto and Pashtun more popular internationally than other spellings and pronunciations.

Afghan is the name of a nation of Afghanistan denoting both Pashtuns and non Pashtuns. Word Afghan is also not from Pashto as there is no letter F in Pashto.

2. Let us form an organization on ground may be called LAR AW BAR YAW PASHTUN(LABYP) having its branches in major cities of Pakistan, Afghanistan and other countries like USA, England, Germany, UAE, Saudi, Qatar etc. Every member has to pay USD 100 per month. I am ready to pay right from 1 July 2013. Members here in these forums should take the lead. This organization should start working on bridging distance between Pashtuns from Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Names of volunteers living in Peshawar, Kabul, Kandahar, Jalal Abad, Quetta, New York, Dubai, Riyadh and other cities may be shared here. I being a worker in UN cannot specify a special city but my payment of USD 100 will be regularly sent to the account maintained by LABYP. We need volunteers for the posts of President, General Secretory , Finance Secretary and Media coordinator. All this should be on ground, real not virtual.

Kindly share other suggestions and proposals in this regard.

[Pukhtoon]

Let us take some practical steps in this regard for example:

1. Let us call our language Pashto in international fora like this one(not pukhto, pakhto, pushto, afghani etc) and the people Pashtun(not pukhtun, pakhtoon, pukhtoon, afghan, pushtun etc). In local use yes we can spell and pronounce the way it is used traditionally.

I see Pashto and Pashtun more popular internationally than other spellings and pronunciations.

Afghan is the name of a nation of Afghanistan denoting both Pashtuns and non Pashtuns. Word Afghan is also not from Pashto as there is no letter F in Pashto.

2. Let us form an organization on ground may be called LAR AW BAR YAW PASHTUN(LABYP) having its branches in major cities of Pakistan, Afghanistan and other countries like USA, England, Germany, UAE, Saudi, Qatar etc. Every member has to pay USD 100 per month. I am ready to pay right from 1 July 2013. Members here in these forums should take the lead. This organization should start working on bridging distance between Pashtuns from Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Names of volunteers living in Peshawar, Kabul, Kandahar, Jalal Abad, Quetta, New York, Dubai, Riyadh and other cities may be shared here. I being a worker in UN cannot specify a special city but my payment of USD 100 will be regularly sent to the account maintained by LABYP. We need volunteers for the posts of President, General Secretory , Finance Secretary and Media coordinator. All this should be on ground, real not virtual.

Kindly share other suggestions and proposals in this regard.

This is where things get murky -organization, funding, mission, goals, etc. Who does who defer to, hierarchy, structure, does it offend the religious, the areligious, etc.? To these questions, I really have no answer. It probably makes more sense to educate people about the common bonds who are actually living the heartlands of the Pashtoons but to do that takes a lot of funds and coordination. It might make more sense to contact already established organizations, maybe the Pukhto academy in Peshawar is a start?

As to any proposed name, I still believe it should be Afghanistan because the only time we have actually had any consolidation as one, large, ethnic group and not roaming bands and tribes was under the banner of Afghanistan from 1787 onward (I believe that's the date). Although the "ف" in Afghanistan is not indigenous to the language, I don't believe that was the original pronunciation - I believe its Abgan or Avghan, more likely Avghan because that pronunciation is still used today.

It also disassociates Pashtoons from their origin story, whether you believe it or not, as to Avghana and subsequently leading to Qais Abdur Rashid. I know Afghanistan is a nation state now and all ethnic groups in Afghanistan are technically considered Afghans, this issue will always be there because no matter what name is chosen, undoubtedly, there will be non-Pukhtoons living in any proposed geographical boundary. After some time, even if its called "Pashtoonistan" anyone who lives there, Punjabi, Sindhi, Hindko, Kalash, Nuristani, Tajik, Uzbek, Hazara etc.will also say I am Pashtoon because they live in Pashtoonistan so I don't think the name change will help as to the this point you made earlier.

As a side note, I don't believe the issue even has to do with any of the other ethnic groups outside of any hand they play in keeping the Pukhtoons away from one another. I think if we went back to the old boundary lines prior to the Durrand there would be no issues inclusive of any other ethnic groups living there. The problem is when either side tries to make the Pukhtoon into his own and into a completely different person - unrecognizable to his kin.

The other problem is, also, when Pashtoon cultural norms, habits, etc. come into conflict with another group, and eventually the two become incompatible, I think it's then when problems arise when other groups want to impose their own way of life, custom, code, etc. on the Pashtoons when they are, in fact, the ones who incorporated our areas into their own country without true consent or were guests for many years.

When someone begs you to join them at their home, and you resist, and they call upon Islam, brotherhood, and laud your values, culture etc. and you finally relent and join, you expect a certain type of behavior. However, when you get there, and the person complains about you, how you dress, how you talk, what language you speak, and what values you hold dear and then tells and tell you that you must change its absolutely asinine . I believe this is an adequate description of Pakistan and how Pukhtoons are treated there.

Conversely, when someone is your guest, and living under your dominion and control, and then after some time, they forget that your the host and there the guest, and tell you to change your language, behavior, culture, or get out of the house, its equally asinine behavior. I believe this is an adequate description of the situation in Afghanistan and how Pashtoons are treated. For these reasons, if other groups simply can't appreciate their host and have such a problem with them, its better each go there separate way and people can live peacefully among similar minded people.

Getting back to topic, though, I think a list of any already established Pashtoon organizations would be a start. In any event, though, food for thought.

[Friend]

Let us take some practical steps in this regard for example:

1. Let us call our language Pashto in international fora like this one(not pukhto, pakhto, pushto, afghani etc) and the people Pashtun(not pukhtun, pakhtoon, pukhtoon, afghan, pushtun etc). In local use yes we can spell and pronounce the way it is used traditionally.

I see Pashto and Pashtun more popular internationally than other spellings and pronunciations.

Afghan is the name of a nation of Afghanistan denoting both Pashtuns and non Pashtuns. Word Afghan is also not from Pashto as there is no letter F in Pashto.

2. Let us form an organization on ground may be called LAR AW BAR YAW PASHTUN(LABYP) having its branches in major cities of Pakistan, Afghanistan and other countries like USA, England, Germany, UAE, Saudi, Qatar etc. Every member has to pay USD 100 per month. I am ready to pay right from 1 July 2013. Members here in these forums should take the lead. This organization should start working on bridging distance between Pashtuns from Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Names of volunteers living in Peshawar, Kabul, Kandahar, Jalal Abad, Quetta, New York, Dubai, Riyadh and other cities may be shared here. I being a worker in UN cannot specify a special city but my payment of USD 100 will be regularly sent to the account maintained by LABYP. We need volunteers for the posts of President, General Secretory , Finance Secretary and Media coordinator. All this should be on ground, real not virtual.

Kindly share other suggestions and proposals in this regard.

Very good idea

[Badlun]

If we consider Pashtuns to be 60 millions or more in the world, 30 millions or more live in Pakistan. May be 20 millions or less live in Afghanistan. I request if some one has exact figures to be shared here. Thats why we have to take into account the reality of engaging both Pakistani and Afghan Pashtuns. (think how it sounds Afghan Pashtun)

We have to recognize both the countries to be soveregin independent states where millions of Pashtuns reside as citizens of each country with their separate passports and ID cards. These are the diverging factors. Once recognized these factors let us focus on converging factors like same language, history, culture, ethnicity, literature, anthropology, society, religion etc.

We need a specific organization to work only and only on the linguistic and cultural unity of Pashtuns. This effort can then take shape of commercial and economic unity also. The only area to be avoided is political.

Organizations like Pashto Academy cannot serve this purpose because it is Pashto department of Peshawar University, a purely Pakistani government entity whose focus is on educational , research and literary activities not essentially bringing unity in Pashtuns on both sides of the border.

Yes entities like one webpage lar aw bar Afghans can serve the purpose but I do not know they will be interested any such effort what we are talking about. Again that seems to be a purely Afghan page not Pashtun page and we need clarity that our purpose is unity of Pashtuns not Afghans or Pakistanis.

I prefer the term or name Pashtun becaus eit is clear, with no ambiguity. Afghan can have one meaning for one eprson and another connotation for another. For a person living in Afghanistan a Tajik can also be Afghan but a Tajik can never be called Pashtun. Similarly for a Pakistani Afghan can be any citizen of Afghanistan but Pashtun has only one explanation. Instead of clarifying to people what really Afghan means or it is synonymous to Pashtun why we do not use every where Pashtun and Pashto.

The success of this website Pashtunforums can be largely attributed that it is an exclusively Pashtun forum where Pashtuns and Pashtuns lovers from any where of the world can participate. If the name would be Afghan forums Pashtuns from Pakistan might not join it or othe non Pashtun members from Afghanistan would join it as active members.

Let us forget our loyalties for a while for Afghanistan or Pakistan and only focus on Pashtun matters then we will be able to understand what to do and how to do it. We being political citizens of any country may continue with our duties as citizens of that country but we being also Pashtuns by language, ethnicity and culture can dedicate our time, energy and money for pure Pashtun cause on global level.

I hope some memebrs may volunteer for LABYP and we can practically show our interest in Pashtun causes.

[gadoonwal]

pashtuns of both should protect their language and culture from urdudans and farsibans.
Speak pure pashtu and teach your children as well.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

It is, unfortunately, true that a lot of Urdu vocabulary has found its way into the Pashto that's spoken in Peshawar. The problem is that children are educated in Urdu so numbers and terms in Urdu are more familiar to them than their Pashto equivalents.

In fact, what is interesting is that Pakistani Urdu has become corrupted with English words and phrases. The educated elite can hardly count beyond 20 in Urdu.

It's a confused country and its languages are suffering as a result.