Pukhto in Khyber Pakhtunkhwaa prior to Durrand - Urdu influence on Pashto or Reverse?

[Pukhtoon]

As a casual observer, with my heritage on the Afghan side of the border, I noticed and have been told by family, friends, etc. that there seems to be a great deal of Urdu influence on Pukhto in Pakistan. Words like Shukria for example, among other words, are very prevalently used in Pakistani Pukhto. While I know Farsi has had an influence on Pukhto spoken on the Afghan side as it has on nearly every language in the region due to its historical dominance as the lingua franca of the region, the general sentiment from those I have spoken with and my own personal observations is that the influence of Urdu on Pukhto is much more pervasive.

Generally, would this be an accurate statement? I believe they are now teaching in Pukhto to certain levels and degrees in school in Khyber Pukhtunkhwaa but historically, I know this has not been the case. In contrast, on the Afghan side, Pukhto has been the medium for teaching in Pukhtoon dominated areas and taught as a mandatory class in non-Pukhto speaking areas. It has also had national language recognition for some time as well. The above, I believe, are reasons for the seemingly more pervasive influence of Urdu on Pukhto on the Pakistan side versus the influence of Farsi on the Afghan side.

In any event, however, if this is not the case, then historically, prior to the Durrand Line being formed, did Pukhtoons, who at all times prior were officially a part of Afghanistan, but still bordering what was then India (now Pakistan), speak the same way they do now?

Or, is the seeming influence on Pukhto in Pakistan is really actually Urdu borrowing Pukhto words to complete the their language? So instead of considering Pukhto to be heavily influenced by Urdu, rather, Urdu is heavily influenced by the Pukhto of those from Khyber Pukhtoonkhwaa?

Thoughts?

[Friend]

Thats true urdue has influence because of the media indian movies book newspapers websites evrrythibg is in urdu.
But still there are is a huge number of people who cant speak or read urdu.
At the other hand every pashtoon in afghanistan must know dari.

[Admin Khan]

When the lingua franca of a nation is Urdu, expect people to use Urdu words for its mere convenience and wide range of applications to modern society.

[Pukhtoon]

I understand but, did this dramatic change take place after the Durrand Line or was it this different prior as well? Pekhawar, for example, which, from my interactions, is much more influenced by Pakistani/Punjabi culture then any other area of Khyber Pakhtunkhwaa, has a direct border with Jalalabad and people seemingly go back and forth without much trepidation.

That being the case, why is the Jalabad Pukhto diverging so greatly from the Pekhawar side when they have had a huge historical relationship? Has the illogical border created that much of a rift in language, culture, etc. or was Pekhawar and the greater Khyber area just always this different and influenced by India (now Pakistan) even before the Durrand Line when it was a part of Afghanistan?

[Pukhtoon]

Thats true urdue has influence because of the media indian movies book newspapers websites evrrythibg is in urdu.
But still there are is a huge number of people who cant speak or read urdu.
At the other hand every pashtoon in afghanistan must know dari.

That is actually incorrect - where there are pockets of Khyber Pakhtunkhwaa where only Pukhto is spoken, there are just as many, hazarding a guess even more areas where Dari is not spoken at all in Afghanistan. The only reason people in Pukhtoon dominated areas in Afghanistan know Dari is if they learned it in school as a subject which doesnt' apply to many rural areas with limited schooling, maybe from TV (but likely not) or they go back and forth for trade.

Pukhto is, in my opinion, without a shadow of a doubt, much more prevalent in Afghanistan then Pakistan. National language status, mandatory fluency even in today's government, national song, history, every area of Afghanistan where they are non-Pukhtoon speaking people must learn Pukhto in school whereas I believe just recently they started using Pukhto as the medium of instruction in Khyber Pakhtunkhwaa where the masses are Pukhtoon let alone such a requirement in Islamabad or Karachi etc. And on the Afghan side, fluency in both Farsi and Pukhto amongst non-Pukhtoons is incredibly common.

I think Pukhto has been supressed in much grander fashion in Pakistan and much of the disconnect between the two sides is a result of said suppression. It's in Pakistan's better interest to due as much and create a distinct and unique Pukhtoon who disassociates themselves, eventually, from their tribesmen on the other side if they haven't done so completely already. I see it far too often, on both sides, despite having a literal blood relation in most instances they look at the Pukhtoon from the other side of the border as less of kin to him then individual's who has absolutely zero blood relationship to them, completely different history and culture. Ironic.

[Admin Khan]

I understand but, did this dramatic change take place after the Durrand Line or was it this different prior as well? Pekhawar, for example, which, from my interactions, is much more influenced by Pakistani/Punjabi culture then any other area of Khyber Pakhtunkhwaa, has a direct border with Jalalabad and people seemingly go back and forth without much trepidation.

Peshawar was always different, and most credit the influx of Afghans to Peshawar for strengthening the Pashtun culture, and Pashto in general in Peshawar. One thing about Pukhtuns you have to realize is in general Pashtuns are incredible kind, in a sense that if there are 10 Pashtuns, and 1 Urdu speaker, all Pashtuns will resort to Urdu, to please that 1 Urdu-speaker. The aforementioned is NOT true in other communities.

That being the case, why is the Jalabad Pukhto diverging so greatly from the Pekhawar side when they have had a huge historical relationship? Has the illogical border created that much of a rift in language, culture, etc. or was Pekhawar and the greater Khyber area just always this different and influenced by India (now Pakistan) even before the Durrand Line when it was a part of Afghanistan?

Pashto is the NATIONAL language of Afghanistan, whereas in Pakistan it had dirt status for a long while, and only recently has the status of Pashto been improving. My experience is that in general speaking Pashto in Pakistan has a negative correlation with being uneducated, and a gate-watcher. Pashtuns speak Urdu, and Dari/Farsi to seem more educated, which is naive and an incredibly sad situation to say the least.

[Pukhtoon]

^^I see - I guess I just imagined Sarhad and modern day Afghanistan as one monolith in the past with a generally similar culture. I was not aware that Pekhawar was so unique and has been regaining some of its cultural ties to Afghanistan as a result of the Afghan wars and influx of refugees.

As it relates to your comment about Pukhto and the general sentiment of other Pakistani's about its prestige, its negative connotations, etc., in light of all that it still boggles my mind when I speak to individual's from the other side of the border who are so averse to the idea of being reintegrated into Afghanistan. These people are not your politician or thinker who is thinking about long-term effects of U.S. money, other aid, infrastructure etc. They really seem to rather be a perpetual minority, killed, disrespected constantly in the media and otherwise, discriminated against to the very root of their culture and language rather then go back to a more natural relationship with Afghanistan, who has blood, language, and cultural ties for centuries as well as an established respect for the culture and language which if not done out of pure intentions, is forced because the Pukhtoon's enjoy a majority status in the country.

Sometimes I wonder if the people I am speaking too that take such a hard-line stance are even Pukhtoon or are "Pathans" who don't even know their tribe or anything else, just picked up Pukhto in Pekhawar and now they consider themselves Pukhtoon. In any event, I digress. Hopefully everyone comes around to their senses and a more practical border designation is created considering the cultural, linguistic, and historical ties of the area.

[Michin Khel]

Shukria for thanks? Who told you that?. We use word manana for thanks and i have heard many afghan-pashtuns using dari word tashakur for thanks.
Can you give rather correct examples of urdu words that are used by lar pashtuns instead of pashto ones?
Moreover bulk of pashto speakers in peshawer are actually hindkowans especially in old areas.

[Pukhtoon]

Shukria for thanks? Who told you that?. We use word manana for thanks and i have heard many afghan-pashtuns using dari word tashakur for thanks.
Can you give rather correct examples of urdu words that are used by lar pashtuns instead of pashto ones?
Moreover bulk of pashto speakers in peshawer are actually hindkowans especially in old areas.

Nobody told me that third hand, every Pakistani Pukhtoon I speak to tells me Shukria, they actually snicker or laugh when I say manana, it sounds odd to them. There are many other instances like this because, although I'm by no means an expert on Pukhto, they use many words I have never heard of and I end up looking them up and they come out to be Urdu. You are correct, however, that Afghan Pukhtoons do say Tushakur as well, but i was just citing the Shukria example as that's the one that I remembered first. Books is another example, a lot of the books out of Pekhawar in Pukhto are mixed heavily with Urdu, it might not be a scientific sample size I'm pulling from, but it has been my experience. There is mixing of the language on both sides but I've generally been told, by Pakistani Pukhtoons, that the Pakistani side has been influenced more by Urdu because they (Pakistan), until recently refused to allow the medium of instruction in school to be Pukhto and it has really no significance or status in Pakistan.

If I get a chance, I will try to put together a list of words that seem foreign to me used routinely in Pakistani Pukhto.

As an aside, could you elaborate on the Hindko people? I have met some Pukhtoons from that side that have been a little odd in their physical appearance, talking, mannerisms, tribal knowledge etc. and always had a sinking suspicion they might not be what we would call a traditional or "khaas" Pukhtoon. They typically have no idea what their tribe or "qowm" is and tell me their qowm is Pathan and when I tell them no, I mean like your tribe, Yusufzai, Ahmadzai, etc. they have no idea.

I've noticed this difference more amonst people from Pekhawar and much less if at all the farther away from Pekhawar the person is from. Maybe the ones I met were Hindko and not Pukhtoon. It also may have to do with the fact that Pekhawar is a large city and most Pukhtoons become less concerned with old traditions, customs, and the importance of tribal identity the more their in the city although I have really never experienced this from Pukhtoons from the Afghan side. In any event, thoughts are appreciated.

[Friend]

Nobody told me that third hand, every Pakistani Pukhtoon I speak to tells me Shukria, they actually snicker or laugh when I say manana, it sounds odd to them. There are many other instances like this because, although I'm by no means an expert on Pukhto, they use many words I have never heard of and I end up looking them up and they come out to be Urdu. You are correct, however, that Afghan Pukhtoons do say Tushakur as well, but i was just citing the Shukria example as that's the one that I remembered first. Books is another example, a lot of the books out of Pekhawar in Pukhto are mixed heavily with Urdu, it might not be a scientific sample size I'm pulling from, but it has been my experience. There is mixing of the language on both sides but I've generally been told, by Pakistani Pukhtoons, that the Pakistani side has been influenced more by Urdu because they (Pakistan), until recently refused to allow the medium of instruction in school to be Pukhto and it has really no significance or status in Pakistan.

If I get a chance, I will try to put together a list of words that seem foreign to me used routinely in Pakistani Pukhto.

As an aside, could you elaborate on the Hindko people? I have met some Pukhtoons from that side that have been a little odd in their physical appearance, talking, mannerisms, tribal knowledge etc. and always had a sinking suspicion they might not be what we would call a traditional or "khaas" Pukhtoon. They typically have no idea what their tribe or "qowm" is and tell me their qowm is Pathan and when I tell them no, I mean like your tribe, Yusufzai, Ahmadzai, etc. they have no idea.

I've noticed this difference more amonst people from Pekhawar and much less if at all the farther away from Pekhawar the person is from. Maybe the ones I met were Hindko and not Pukhtoon. It also may have to do with the fact that Pekhawar is a large city and most Pukhtoons become less concerned with old traditions, customs, and the importance of tribal identity the more their in the city although I have really never experienced this from Pukhtoons from the Afghan side. In any event, thoughts are appreciated.

You are right. There is a huge influence of urdu on our pashto. The pashto of afghans is pure or much better. Our pashto is contaminated with urdu and english.

[Pukhtoon]

You are right. There is a huge influence of urdu on our pashto. The pashto of afghans is pure or much better. Our pashto is contaminated with urdu and english.

I wouldn't say Afghan Pukhto is pure per se, but I think the influence of Dari on Pukhto is much less then Urdu on Pukhto. Again, though, it probably is because Pukhto really has no national recognition, isn't really taught, and is cast in a negative light in Pakistan whereas in Afghanistan its nowhere close to that. In fact, as I mentioned in another post, government positions, schools, etc. Pukhto is required to be taught and or fluency required even in areas where there are no Pukhtoons (generally speaking as there may be exceptions).

Even on TV they either have 100% Pukhto channels or 50% of the broadcast has to be in Pukhto and the other 50% in Dari. So it gets a lot more recognition on the Afghanistan side which is why I think it hasn't been effected as much by Dari as Urdu has effected it in Pakistan because of the historical stance of the Pakistani government against Pukhto and Pukhtoons (as well as others).

I have heard, however, that there starting to teach school in Pukhto now in areas of Khyber Pakhtunkhwaa I think until 8th grade maybe, I might be wrong though, but if they are teaching Pukhto at all as the medium for education it's a step in the right direction.

[Michin Khel]

Nobody told me that third hand, every Pakistani Pukhtoon I speak to tells me Shukria, they actually snicker or laugh when I say manana, it sounds odd to them. There are many other instances like this because, although I'm by no means an expert on Pukhto, they use many words I have never heard of and I end up looking them up and they come out to be Urdu. You are correct, however, that Afghan Pukhtoons do say Tushakur as well, but i was just citing the Shukria example as that's the one that I remembered first. Books is another example, a lot of the books out of Pekhawar in Pukhto are mixed heavily with Urdu, it might not be a scientific sample size I'm pulling from, but it has been my experience. There is mixing of the language on both sides but I've generally been told, by Pakistani Pukhtoons, that the Pakistani side has been influenced more by Urdu because they (Pakistan), until recently refused to allow the medium of instruction in school to be Pukhto and it has really no significance or status in Pakistan.

If I get a chance, I will try to put together a list of words that seem foreign to me used routinely in Pakistani Pukhto.

As an aside, could you elaborate on the Hindko people? I have met some Pukhtoons from that side that have been a little odd in their physical appearance, talking, mannerisms, tribal knowledge etc. and always had a sinking suspicion they might not be what we would call a traditional or "khaas" Pukhtoon. They typically have no idea what their tribe or "qowm" is and tell me their qowm is Pathan and when I tell them no, I mean like your tribe, Yusufzai, Ahmadzai, etc. they have no idea.

I've noticed this difference more amonst people from Pekhawar and much less if at all the farther away from Pekhawar the person is from. Maybe the ones I met were Hindko and not Pukhtoon. It also may have to do with the fact that Pekhawar is a large city and most Pukhtoons become less concerned with old traditions, customs, and the importance of tribal identity the more their in the city although I have really never experienced this from Pukhtoons from the Afghan side. In any event, thoughts are appreciated.

Do make a list of urdu words that we use instead of pashto, it would be helpful for discussion......can you tell me more about these weird "pathans", did you met them in peshawer or any foriegn country?..were they wearing shalwar kameez or pant shirts? (traditional or mammy daddy type?).

[Pukhtoon]

Do make a list of urdu words that we use instead of pashto, it would be helpful for discussion......can you tell me more about these weird "pathans", did you met them in peshawer or any foriegn country?..were they wearing shalwar kameez or pant shirts? (traditional or mammy daddy type?).

Insha'Allah I will try, as I speak to people when I notice something amiss I will make note.

As to the people I met, they were met in the West although they were not all born or raised here. Most of them don't know their tribes if there from Pekhawar. The one's who do are typically from places like Swat who usually are more inclined to see an Afghan Pukhtoon as the same as him and proudly say "I'm Afghan," i.e., Pukhtoon and are very much supportive of brotherhood despite the boundary lines.

The one's from Pekhawar that I have met more closely align themselves with Punjabis and consider them closer to them then an Afghan Pukhtoon. For example, if there might be a group, an Afghan Pukhtoon, Punjabi, and Pakistani Pukhtoon, the Pakistani Pukhtoon from Pekhawar will say things like "You know, us Pakistani's are like this..." which basically draws an allegiance with a Punjabi as against and Afghan Pukhtoon. I have also heard them make strange comments at times like making fun of Afghans for being too generous, or fighting over paying money, stuff like that which I thought were qualities all Pukhtoons, on either side, appreciated.

Again though, this has only been my personal experience, it might not be true as to a majority of people, but simply my experience in the west.

I have also encountered a good number of what I suspect are Punjabi's but maybe some other ethnic group who know Pukhto but don't know their tribe, argue that Punjabis and Pukhtoons are mixed and one people, and often times simply say "I'm Pathan" without elaborating when asked about their tribe or they don't say I'm Pukhtoon, and simply say "I'm Pekhawari" but everything else they say in the conversation tries to imply that they are, in fact, Pukhtoon and it only comes out that their not if you directly ask them. The one's I have encountered, not all though, also just don't seem to physically look Pukhtoon or act like them, there's a particular walk, talk, etc. you can pick up and I haven't seen it out of the people I mentioned.

In any event, though, maybe its just an anomaly but I was always curious about it and rather ask people with more direct knowledge then myself.

It's definitely a shame that any rift is present by people with such a long and storied history and a unique way of life only compatible with one another. Despite the fact that most of the problems Pukhtoons suffer are really because were not compatible with the other ethnic groups around us, they still choose, at least some of them, to further our divide. Definitely ironic but Insha'Allah hopefully Allah (swt) will provide a solution to the issue agreeable to everyone.

[Admin Khan]

Stay on topic, no insults.

[Badlun]

Before Durand line I think Pashto was only a spoken language never a written or formal official language and was influenced by Persian which was dominant in both present day Pakistan and Afghanistan.Urdu is a verey recent phenomenon like less than 200 years of its existence and its formal importance after the birth of Pakistan in 1947. Still it is not the offical language in Pakistan. It was after the influence of communism in Afghanistan that Pashto is getting importance in Afghanistan while Pashto is getting attention in Pakistan owing to the Pashtun nationalist parties like ANP and PMAP.

Words like theek(correct), acha(ok), mehrabani(thanks), and counting in Urdu numbers are some of the examples Pashtuns in Pakistan have been influenced. In Afghanistan mostly the technical terms are borrowed from Persian. Thats why Pakistani Pashtuns face problems in understanding the Persian loaded Pashto written or spoken in Afghanistan. BBC Pashto is only popular in Afghanistan and not in Pakistan.

Another difference is the 100 % pure Pashto in Afghanistan where words like brekhna leek is used for email and tughandey for rocket and pohantoon for university while these words are not known amongst Pakistani Pashtuns.

The main reason is that Pashto is not at all written or read in Pakistan while it is written and read in Afghanistan. But paradoxically Pashto Academy in Peshawar is more active than any of its counterpart in Afghanistan. Pashto film industry, dramas, music etc are also more dynamic in Paksitan than Afghanistan.However internet web pages are more active in Afghanistan.

As I wrote somewhere else keeping in view the reality of no possibility of any political unity, the only path remains is non political. I am extremely worried about the increasing distance between the Pashtuns of Afghanistan and Pakistan. If some serious efforts are not taken Pashtuns on both sides of the border, Pashtuns will deem themselves as different races or ethnicity. Yes races or ethnicity because already they belong to two different nations, Pakistani and Afghanistani or afghan.

Pashtuns on both sides of the Durand line belong to one family, one blood, one language and one culture, one past but now being part of two different countries, distance is increasing between them. Pashtuns in Pakistan are coming under influence of Punjabis and Urdu speakers and Pashtuns in Afghanistan are coming under influence of Tajiks and Persian speakers.

We have to work and suggest that how Pashtuns on both sides can be culturally and linguistically united? Their cultural and linguistic unity is the only possibility as their political unity is now an unattainable dream. We have to devise pragmatic strategies that how distance between Pashtuns on both sides of the Durand line can be reduced and they may come together at least culturally psychologically and linguistically if not politically. Pashtuns must be realistic in their approach. Some Pashtuns on both sides want merger of Pashtuns areas which is impossible as how Afghanistan will leave its non -Pashtun areas to be merged with Pashtun areas for a greater Pashtunistan. This is impossible, and how Pakistan will let its Pashtun areas to be separated, that would be too impossible for Pakistan.

As the distance between the Pashtuns living in Afghanistan and Pakistan is increasing we must learn from nations who speak the same language and have the same culture but are politically different and belong to different nations or countries and are citizens of different states. For example all Arab, Spanish, German, French ,English speaking people are not the citizens of the same countries but psychologically ,linguistically , culturally , economically they have enormous ties and try to develop linkages which further strengthen their bonds

We Pashtuns on both sides of the border if cant become one nation politically at least can feel one ethnic group and sons of the same father living in different houses . We must encourage connections with each other by marriages, conferences and friendships. We must feel near to an Afghan Pashtun than to a Pakistani Panjabi and vice versa

The concern is also about the increasing distance of Pashto language spoken in Pakistan and Afghanistan. There is a marked difference in vocabulary of the Pashto spoken in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Afghanistani Pashto is influenced by Persian while Pakistani Pashto by Urdu or English. Here the solution is using pure Pashto words neither of Persian nor Urdu nor English. This will bridge the linguistic difference

However, the difference of accent is geographical not political. It does not depend on Pakistan or Afghanistan. It’s not East West. Its North –South. There arer two main dialects in Pashto language. Hard dialect spoken in areas like Peshawar, Mardan, Swat, Malakand, Dir, Kohat, Paracinar, Jalalabad, Bajawar, Mohmand, Khyber,etc mainly in northern part of Pashto speaking areas. Soft dialect is spoken in Southern areas like Banu, Karak, Waziristan, Baluchistan, Qandahar, Paktya etc

I have rarely seen an Afghan Pashtun who intensely hate a Pakistani Pashtun or a Pakistani Pashtun who abhor an Afghan Pashtun but the gap between Pashtuns living in these two countries is really increasing day by day and which can be seen in various internet based forums and other social events of mixed communities specially in foreign countries. Even in Pakistan a Pashtun from Afghanistan is some times called Kabaley or kabuli with a tone of humiliation and Afghan Pashtuns consider the Pakistani Pashtuns to be lesser Pashtuns.

Pashtuns are responsible as well as only solvers for all their problems including the increasing gap between the Pashtuns on both sides of the border. I wish the bridge of the distance between Pashtuns on two sides of the Durand line should be minimized not further intensified. We should become realist and instead of talking or struggling for imaginative ideals like Loy Afghanistan or Pashtunistan may struggle for the cultural, linguistic, psychological and economic unity of Pashtuns living any where in the world.