Islam is just a religion like any other religion

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Someone who does not believe in any form of divinity will view all religions as equally false.

My point exactly.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

My point exactly.

I've edited my previous post, too.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

^So, you change you mind and say that religion is correct? Oh ok...nice to know.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

^So, you change you mind and say that religion is correct? Oh ok...nice to know.

lol that hasn't happened yet. I answered your questions regarding Islam and Christianity. I wanted to see what your next move would be.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Oh okay...thought you were being sarcastic...give me a sec, dear brother.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Yes, Momin, I have good knowledge about both Islam and Christianity. I have more than just a clue as to what both actually teach. Religion IS my cup of tea. However, the fact is that even Muslims don't agree on what Islamic philosophy is. Anyway, since you want me to post something, I'll do it to satisfy you even though you will naturally reply, 'your knowledge is rudimentary at best and therefore your conclusions about Islam are incorrect'.

Islam preaches strict monotheism. It claims it is the religion of Adam, David, Moses and Jesus. The final prophet and everything revealed to him nullify everything of the past though. The life of the final prophet, his family and his companions are the model for all modern Muslims. However, those lives are filled with acts of selfless charity along with acts of brutal barbarity. Some Muslims choose to follow the former and others, the latter. Islamic practices such as ritual prayers and fasting are to be practiced and not doing so would have worldly and after-world repercussions. The many contradictory Hadith, collected decades after the prophet's death, have resulted in clerics and priests unleashing terror upon innocent people.

Christianity came out of occupied Judea and spread like wildfire after Constantine converted. It initially liberated people from the tyranny of the Old Testament and its priests and preached love and forgiveness but faster than you can say Hail Mary, the Patriarch of Rome became the greatest tyrant in the world. Christianity is not strictly monotheistic in nature. At the same time, there is relatively lesser emphasis on religious practices and more on having faith in Jesus. Christianity has resulted in more death and suffering than any other religion.

The question that comes to mind: is this confusion the reason why you have don't believe in God or subscribe to a particular faith?

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Momin, there was confusion for a few years for me. But that was all like 3 or 4 years ago. There has been only certainty since then and I have found the feeling to be truly liberating.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

How could you be liberated when you are still stuck on earth, while living? How do you define "liberated," dearest brother?

[Khan Gul]

Qrratugai,
Khwarzey, In order to put an end to this wrangling, the Qur'aan says: "Behold, God has bought of the Faithful their persons and their possessions, offering them Paradise in return...Rejoice, then, in the bargain you have made, for this is the triumph supreme." And the essence of Muhammad's (pbuh) prophetic mission was that: "I am only a mortal man but He who has created the universe has bidden me to bear His Message to you. In order that you might live in harmony with the plan of His creation, He has commanded me to remind you of His existence, omnipotence and omniscience, and to place before you a program of behavior. If you accept this program, follow me."

Not that I don't respect your views about the equality of all religions, however, in the light of this verse from Qur'aan and the message delivered by the Prophet (pbuh) let me ask you a simple question:

Do you as a Muslim believe that the followers of all other religions, by following their own religions, will earn them this "triumph supreme" (Paradise) after death? If your answer is a positive assertion, i.e., yes, then I am afraid, either you or I have not understood the message of Islam correctly and we need to delve deeply about what we believe. Of course, God does not call for blind subservience on the part of human being but rather appeals to his intellect, so I think, this question, is necessary, so that an integrated image of Islam emerges in its finality in our minds.

I know you were very busy responding to all those posts and believe you me I realize it wasn’t easy and must have taken a good deal of your time but I would still appreciate if you’d respond to my above post.
As a Muslim, I respect you for your views whether or not they are in line with the mainstream Muslim beliefs, however, reading all your posts, word by word, correctly or incorrectly, you give me the impression that you claim to be a Muslim yet more or less your views resemble the views of the Great Mughal Emperor, Akbar who invented Deen-i-Ilahi where he attempted to accommodate all religions in this invented Deen of his and as Muslims we feel he went beyond the limit of what was morally or legally acceptable to us Muslims.
I avoided responding to respected Levanye Zalmaye, Muhsina, Gulalai, etc. since they made their stance clear and I respect them and admire them for their honesty and their courage.
As a Muslim, I believe religion is a serious matter and must not be taken lightly for the success or failure of our Akhirat – the unending life, depends upon what we believe and therefore, you need to break this protective shell which you have created around yourself. If you honestly confess Islam to be the true religion, be bold enough to stay a monument to its truth. On the other hand, if you feel, Islam is some man-made religion, say it boldly. No offense intended.

[Saifullah]

woah....this topic has gone far...i was searchin for my comments and they are way back, i guess theres nothing more i can add to this discussion...lol

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I avoided responding to respected Levanye Zalmaye, Muhsina, Gulalai, etc. since they made their stance clear and I respect them and admire them for their honesty and their courage.

-----

you need to break this protective shell which you have created around yourself. If you honestly confess Islam to be the true religion, be bold enough to stay a monument to its truth. On the other hand, if you feel, Islam is some man-made religion, say it boldly. No offense intended.

Word.

As far as those who admit that Islam is a man-made religion and that God is a fairy-tale are concerned, I don't have a problem with them. As you said it, they should be commended for their open stance.

However, these people don't have the right to mock religion and call the existence of God a fairy-tale. Sure, they may believe that but they should not take the liberty to shove their beliefs down peoples' throats.

I don't have a problem with someone who likes to mock God and make fun of people who adhere to religion; in my eyes, they are just blinded by their hatred.

Being educated does not mean that you have manners.

The whole exercise with respect to Qrratugai was to bring out what she truly believes. It is clear that she does not believe that all religions are equal. She deleted her post, otherwise, you all would have seen it. She believes Islam to be the right religion. Period.

I just feel bad that she is trying to please everyone, even those who mock Islam on this website. She is trying to keep the bond of her "clique" together at the expense of defending what she really believes in, which is that Islam is correct.

She told me via pm, that she was not happy to take sides with those who mock Islam. She just found that they understood her. Sure they understand her: all religions are a mockery to them anyways, hence, equal, despite being different.

My concern is, just as Khan Gul said it, she should express what she feels boldly, and this is what I have been trying to do in this whole thread: for her to be open and not be afraid to lose "friends."

If she feels that Islam is correct (which she does) then she should say it and allow us to question her why she believes that and still maintains that ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUAL.

If she feels that Islam is not correct (which she does not) then the case is closed. Period. It makes sense why she would believe what she is preaching, that ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUAL.

All in all, Qrratugai is not practicing what she is preaching.

All of the above is paraphrasing our pm's and her deleted post.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Yes, not only that but that they are also equal in merit, i.e. neither is one religion superior than the other nor is it inferior.

However, she admitted in the post she deleted that Islam is the correct religion.

The question that comes to mind is that if she believes that Islam is correct then on what basis does she have the audacity to say that all religions are all equal in merit.

She is obviously trying to keep "friends" with everyone even if it means to preach that which she does not belief. She preaches that ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUAL, but deep inside she believes that ISLAM IS THE CORRECT ONE.

This is a clear contradiction.

She is not practicing what she is preaching.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

If we are wrong and she is right, and that we have not understood her stance, then I want her to answer the following questions:

Qrratugai,

1. How could all religions be equal when you consider your religion to be the correct one?
2. How could you not consider your religion to be superior to others when you are only following your own religion and not following the religion of others?
3. If all religions are equally good and deserve equal respect then why do you associate yourself with one and not the others?
4. If you consider your religion to be the correct one then why are you not sharing the message with others?
5. If you don't think your religion is superior than other religions then why do you follow it?
6. Why do you think that you do not need to follow other religions in order to see them as deserving of equal respect, tolerance, and appreciation as your own?
7. Being a Muslim, how can you not deem one religion superior to the another when the Quran says this explicitly?
8. Being a Muslim how could you not invite people towards Islam, when the Quran says to do da'wah?
9. Being Muslim how could you say that all religions are equal when the Quran has declared all other religions to be obsolete?
10. Being Muslim how could all religions be equal when Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) is a universal prophet whereas all other prophets were limited to their people only?

These should be enough for you to indulge on for now.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

It’s a common perception that Islam is a complete way of life and has solution to all the problems of human life where in this world or the Hereafter. I don’t believe in this perception and consider Islam only a religion like any other religion but with its own sets of beliefs, modes of worship and moral values and ethical injunctions.

This is your opinion.

If we analyze all the important definitions of the term Religion then we may find that all these definitions have three things in common. These are faith, worship and morality.

I agree.

Islam like any other religion guides its followers in these there spheres but is not a complete system for life but it does not provide complete guidance for other spheres of life like culture, politics, economy, science, technology, philosophy, psychology etc.

How could you say that when the Prophet (saw) started something from scratch and left an empire behind. The Quran says that he (saw) guided by revelation. Further, how can you expect the Quran to say to acquire knowledge but have given you the process before hand. Quran has given all important factors to guide mankind, but has left man to govern for himself. Even the Prophet (saw) was told not to meddle in the lives of people.

We may note that I am not talking of an idea which will harm Islam but if we consider Islam only as a religion it will be in the benefit of Islam itself. This will also solve all the problems Muslims are facing like terrorism, Extremism.

Muslims need to understand how the early Muslims, i.e. first three centuries, practiced Islam. There after it might give away how to survive the 21st Century.

After doing lot of research and discussions I did not find any one who can prove that Islam guide us completely in political, cultural, social, economic, technological, financial, scientific, historical, anthropological, philosophical, psychological, logical, mathematical, artistic, astronomical, commercial, agricultural, ecological, statistical, electronic and other aspects of life. If Islam does not guide us in all these spheres of life then it can only be called as a religion but not as a system or complete way of life. This is why Islam was never implemented as a complete code of life in history. It was not so attractive to people to be adopted or promulgated completely because it lacks guidance for all the different activities of life.

I disagree. The Quran has given valuable guidance. It has simply pointed to the answer and has left the process at the hands of man to discover.

In Islam one has Aqeeda (belief, faith) , ibadat(worship) and Akhlaq(morality) and this is what religion is. A religious person like Muslim should have beliefs in God, prophets, holy books, hereafter etc, then may worship as in the form of prayers, fasting, charity, pilgrimage and then may have some moral codes as not telling lie, not killing etc

.

Is that simply for morality purposes?

This is all what religion is but beyond that Islam has nothing to offer. For guidance in other aspects of life we have to resort to other systems and ideologies like democracy, capitalism, liberalism, cultural and social theories and other scientific and technological theories and practices which has nothing to do with Islam and Islam has nothing to do with them.

How well are you versed with the Quran? I take it that you are, otherwise, you would not make such a statement. That leads me to my second question: how do you want the Quran to answer all of this?

Considering Islam as a complete way of life encourages extremism and religious extremism and Wahabism is really a menace. To avoid such evils, the only way is to accept Islam as religion (faith+worship+morals) and not culture, political system, legal system, economic system and source of education.

I totally disgree. Anything can be taken out of context.

Some people like Taliban and other religious political parties struggle for the promulgation of Islamic Political system but Islam as a political system has always been a failure from the time of Abubakar Abassids, Mughals, to Pakistan , Sudan, Somalia , Saudi , Afghanistan , Egypt, Turkey, and Iran of today. Whatever presence it had was because of dictators, monarchs and sultans not because of its inherent political qualities. The very opposition of the so called Political Islam to democracy is a big stigma on its face.

How do you think other political systems emerged?

Islam was a failure in Turkey and today in Iran. Islam can be useful only as a religion (faith+worship+morality) and not at all as a political, cultural or economic system. Today Iran shows it that theocracy and rule of religion can’t be a success in this modern world at least. To reach to this conclusion that islam is only a religion ,
I have read many Tafseers or commentaries of Quran and important books of Ahadith and Fiqa. Even I remained a student of the traditional Madrassah of Darse Nizami and have read all the important books on Fiq, sarf wa nahwa, manteq , usool, etc.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe they are "using" Islam for their own political agendas?

I have never found that where Islam guide us in all aspects of life as science and technology, Natural and social sciences, mathematics, linguistics, arts and crafts, philosophy, psychology etc etc. Even the legal system of Islam often talked about is just few moral principles and all the punishments like cutting of hands and stoning to death were never implemented as such and will never be implemented.
Some people consider that mere mentioning of Zakat in Quran gives Islam an economic system. Zakat is just a concept of charity like other religions and is a moral notion not an economic system.

Again, why do you want the Quran to explicitly answer this? As for zakar, how much do you understand about it?

The concept of Zakat exists in Islam and in Muslim world since more than 14 centuries but Muslim world presents the worst scenario of the poor parts of the world. The few Arab countries who are rich are not because of Zakat but owing to the natural resources specially petroleum. Look at Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Central Asian countries, African Muslim countries all present worst cases of poverty stricken societies. Thus practically looking at things Zakat could not make Muslim countries prosperous. It might have served few individuals but has never worked as an economic system as Communism or capitalism.

The logical fallacy in your statement is that you have made the Muslims the yard-stick. Are you sure they "practicing" Muslims?

Islam if not taken as only religion will destroy Islam itself as religion. People will start hating if Islam is imposed as a political, economic, cultural or social system. Taliban and Wahabis present the perfect picture of ideal Islam. Who will be ready to accept this kind of Islam? Theoretically speaking Taliban and Wahabis don’t talk against Islam. Their mistake is that they consider Islam as a complete way of life and want to impose Islam on society as a complete way of life.

Well, that is we need to educated people to look at Islam from the eyes of the Prophet (saw) not any Ahmad, Mahmud, Kalbir or Maqsud.

Islam if not presented as only religion will destroy all other cultures as it’s destroying Pashtunwali. It’s a serious danger to accept Islam as a complete system. This is what all the extremists like Taliban and Wahabis claim and struggle for.

Again, as you have noted, it is a problem of interpretation and forced following.

Some Muslims take Sharia as a system but I would like to clarify that Sharia is the explanation of Islamic rules and regulations but for the religion not for Islam as a system or code of life. As I stress again and again Islam is acceptable as a religion not as a system. Religion is faith, worship and morality not economy, politics, society, law and culture. For Pashtuns if they believe in Allah, worship him by offering prayers, Ramadan etc and observe some moral codes, its ok but their culture and society is Pashtunwali and their politics should be democracy and their economy should be free market economy with state control in few matters and their law should not be against the human rights.

Shariah is not to be practiced by anyone. The Quran guides the Muslims to submit to the law of the land, even if the ruler is not Muslim. Extremist exist everywhere.

If sharia explains how to say prayers, how to observe fasts, how to perform Hajj etc, and if it explains monotheism, beliefs in here after, prophets etc, then its ok, if it says don’t tell lie then its ok but beyond that it will be crossing its limits being only a religion and this transgression will create problems as we already observe these problems in the shape of Taliban and dictatorships in Muslim countries. .No Sharia is acceptable if it tries to impose politics, economy and culture. As these were never imposed successfully because its imposition is against the spirit of Islam

Again, you are interpreting the flaws from the practice of the Taliban. They are not the standard for Islam; they do not have the agenda for Muslims.

Some friends say that the perfect Islam can be found in Pashtun areas then why we complain that Pashtuns have some bad customs and traditions? Two things are possible one that there is no perfect Islam in Pashtuns or if there is perfect Islam in Pashtuns then all these evils are because of Islam!!! For me the second one may be truer as these are the Muslim Taliban and Wahabi Mullas who are harsh and cruel. Pashtuns generally are very soft, hospitable, secular, music and dance lovers, cultured people, brave and tolerant, hard working and energetic.

Again, logical fallacy. See above.

No doubt there are few bad customs like SWARA, etc but majority of evils are because of the adoption of extremist Wahabi Islam by Pashtuns. Pashtuns before 1979, before the invasion of the former USSR on Afghanistan and the entailing Jihad were very different from what they are today. This is because of the Wahabi Arabs who changed Pashtuns into religious bigots that now even Arab go there to learn Islam in Pashtun lands as they cant implement Islam in their own Arab countries as all are ruled by dictators, kings and anti women bandits.

You said it yourself: your logic is feeding off one group.

Extremist Islam has done away with Pashtunwali that’s why today we hear that I am Muslim, Pakistani but not Pashtun. The name Pashtun has become a taboo for many so called extremist fundamentalist Muslims. Many traditions of the Prophet Muhamamd are falsely quoted. Muslim may rely more on Quran than on hadith or traditions. Quran also must be reinterpreted in the light of modern day realities.

Again, you have admitted it yourself: it is an interpretation issue.

If these barbaric punishments like stoning to death, or cutting of hands can’t be practically implemented then why they are there to be obeyed or acted upon. Basically all these verses of the Holy Quran must me understood contextually and figuratively or metaphorically and not literally as done by the Wahabi, Ahle hadith, Salafi, Deobandi Taliban.

You hit the nail on the head!

Islam was always a failure as a system and complete code of life because we have never seen it promulgated no where except may be for few years at the life time of prophet Muhammad and upto the era of Hazrat Umar. After that we see blood shed among Muslims, even people like Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Ayesha were fighting each other and the grand son of the Prophet was killed by the son of Muyawya, And after that we have monarchies, dictatorship and no where any true Islamic state or welfare state or democratic state. Islam as a religion was always a success and has a very good belief, worship and moral system. There are few guide lines about social, cultural, political, legal and economic aspects of life but all these fall in the category of moral or ethical sphere not a complete system.

You have canceled your first statement with you last and vice versa. How could it have failed when everything today in based on "ethics" anyway? Hence, it is the people themselves to be blamed, not the teaching itself.

If it is announced that for all Muslim countries that there is free entry and no visa is requires for France, , UK, USA , Europe, Australia, Canada, Japan, even countries like Brazil, Argentina, Mexico etc , all Muslims will rush towards these countries. Why? Because the so called Islam has given nothing to them for the last 1400 years. As a religion yes but as a system nothing. People are spending thousands of dollars just to get out of their Muslim country and to enter the infidel developed world.

How can you blame Islam for this?

Few Arab countries are prosperous but this is because of natural resources not because of their hard work. They are all lazy snails. Not a single world known scientist is found in all Muslim countries. One tiny Israel can destroy the whole Muslim world in one minute if they really wish so.

Again, where is Islam at fault here?

We impose Islam as a social system and then we have problems like Hijab issue in the modern developed world. France as a state has the right to impose any rule or regulation. As a school can ask for certain uniform, a state can regulate its social system according to its requirements. And wearing Hijab or Niqab or Burqa in this modern era is already redundant and I felicitate Fance, Syria and other countries to discourage this primitive tradition. Covering face is a handicap in driving and other day to day activities. It must be banned and the violators may be punished. The same may be done in all Muslim and non Muslim countries through out the world.

This is your opinion. It is not all correct. Why do you clothe yourself?

I don’t want to say here that I am against Islam. I want to further clarify that I am Muslim religiously. I am Pashtun racially, culturally, socially and I am a liberal, democrat etc politically or economically. I am Pakistani or Afghan or American by nationality. We must be clear in our identities. We may not confuse things. This way we can do justice with all and o none will invade the other.

Well, you have indirectly said that, because you do not agree with Quranic principles, or it might be that you are not acquainted with Quranic principles for which I can understand your position.

The whole mess that we have is because of this confusion. The illiterate Taliban want to become rulers and judges and police and administrators which is not their job. They may be experts on the issues of how to say prayers or how to observe fasts, or what is monotheism, but they know nothing of the state craft, foreign relations, justice, finance, public administration, management, development, etc.
Similarly if an expert of Political science or Zoology or Medical sciences want to advise on the religious matters will be a mistake. Spiritual and mundane must be separated.

Word. That is why Islam "seems" to not have the answers and "seems" to be a prehistoric teaching in your eyes.

Some people think that the mere mentioning of Consultation/shura in Quran gives it a political system. I will once again repeat that Islam as an economic or political model never existed. This consultation is only a moral principle mentioned in Quran but cant be equivalent to a complete political system. It was never practiced. Do you think Umayyads or Abbasids or others used consultations in their political affairs? They were all dictators.

How could you blame Islamic teachings on the practice of people?

Some think that it’s the student MUSLIM not the book Islam which is at fault. Islam is not at a fault but Muslims. This example that its fault of the student and not of teacher or book is wrong for Islam. Islam if taken as a book, or teacher equal to a complete system, then this is wrong and this is the main issue I am talking about here. Islam is not a system, its not a teacher, its not a book, Its only a book or teacher for beliefs, worship and morality nothing else. Islam is only a religion nothing more than that. Its not fault of Muslims as students , but its the fault of Muslims to consider Islam as a system. Muslims should read the book of Islam or should learn from the teacher of Islam only in religious affairs not in politics, economics, science, logic, philosophy, etc.

I disagree. One question: how much do you know about early Islamic history?

Islam is good as belief system, as worship system and as moral way of life. Because of Islam we may do good things. There is no harm in it not doing bad things because of Islam. If Islam keeps you away from harmful things its morality and I recognize it but beyond this no. Islam or Taliban as implementers of Islam as a system can’t be judges, police, legislators etc at the same time.

What is the purpose of being good? This question will solve your dilemma.

Pakistan and Afghanistan are considered to be the best Muslim countries from Islamic point of view. Here Islam as a way of life is mostly practiced but these countries are the most corrupt and poor ones then what benefit islam as a system has given to the people of these countries. No one can tell me any ideal Islamic country in today’s world or in the whole history of Islam may be except upto the era of Hazrat Umar but at that time the development of the Islamic empire was not because of islam as a complete way of life but because of the wise secular policies of the rulers of that time. Islam was always there as a religion but not as a political or economic system.

Where did Islam say to leave secularism?

West has separated religion from politics, economy, culture, society etc and that’s the secret of the development of the West. If Muslims want to be materially prosperous and developed like the West then they must follow the way they got the development other wise there is no way out. Religion can develop you spiritually but not economically or materially.

The West figured this out in the Age of the Renaissance. However, this has been the guideline of the Quran since 1430. Again, you are basing your conclusion on practice of Muslims and not the Quranic teaching.

Laws must be re invented, created and changed according to the circumstances. This is another flaw in extremist Muslim approach that they consider the 1400 years old injunctions ( I don’t call them laws as these are not systematic) permanent. They must know that the every thing permanent is this world is the CHANGE. This is the spirit of the reconstruction of the religious thought in Islam as proposed by Dr Iqbal.

Give me one example. You can't just make a statement without backing it up with an example.

My description of Islam only as a religion and not as a complete way of life does not mean that I am converted to another religion. I love Islam as a religion but not beyond that. Readers may not be short tempered as by reading these lines may jump to the conclusions that I am a heretic or like the traditional way of Mullas may issue the fatwas of Kufr immediately. I say that Islam was never a political or economic or cultural or social or scientific system and if readers think otherwise may prove me wrong with evidence and may not just issue decrees of infidelity.

Again, your opinion.

I am not preaching any new religion here rather I am trying to separate religion from non religious and secular stuff. For me my religion is Islam which is confined to faith, worship and morality but for other spheres of my life I ll seek guidance from other systems and ideologies like Democracy and capitalism.

Where does it say in Islam not to separate the two?

Few years of the Prophet or upto the era of Hazrat Umar and then few years more when Arab Muslims were ruling Spain first does not count much in the more than 1400 years of Islam. Second in all these governments only the religion of Islam was not applied but also the local Arab practices were too involved. The religion was kept limited to religious affairs and for day to day affairs other models and practices were adopted. Also at that time there was no the present day concept of democracy and such was not applicable.

Whose fault is this?

Billions of people were attracted either by sword or by the religion as the people had no other option but to embrace Islam or they liked the religious beliefs, mode of worship or moral standards of the Arab Muslims of that time. At that time Arabs had the power and that’s why their religion or social system and culture also had the dominance. But that was Arab culture and society not the religion of Islam which was adopted by the conquered nations. And yes people like today were deceived by the slogan that Arab culture is equivalent to the religion and the people had to even adopt the language, dress and other social patterns of Arabs in the name of Islam. The religion of Islam may be learnt from Quran and Sunna but the religion. We may not mix it with other spheres of life.

Again, logical fallacy.

Remember, the sword will bend will make the head bow, but will not bend the heart.

Islam as a system in books is one thing and Islam in practice is another thing. You may find some aspects of politics, economics, culture etc in books with moral underpinning but practically you don’t see it as the main purpose of Islam is being a religion to cater for the beliefs, worship and some personal morality of its believers not to make them politicians, scientists, economists, poets, writers, technicians, doctors, engineers etc . All these belong to secular or non religious aspects of life.

This is clearly only your view.

Once these Taliban and other terrorists and extremists understand this point, they wont kill innocent people for the implementation of the so called Sharia which has political, economic and cultural underpinnings, rather they will concentrate on the spiritual aspects as faith, worshipping and morality like other religions as Christianity, Buddhism, etc which only and only attend to religious affairs of its believers and don’t indulge in politics etc. Islamic beliefs, modes of worship and morality may be presented better than other religions but the political and other aspects presented by Taliban are not better as these are not Islamic because of the simple reason that Islam is only a religion and not beyond that.

Again, logical fallacy.

I never compare Islam to Democracy or other ideologies. My basic point is that Islam is religion and Democracy is a political system and both are two different things. For religions we have Islam, for politics we have democracy and for culture we have Pashtunwali. As already emphasized Islam never give us a complete system in politics, economics etc. Islam give us only few guidelines for politics, economics etc which have mainly moral underpinnings. Quran like Old testament and New Testament have some moral principles but not political or economic systems.

The more I read the more I am concluding that you are NOT well versed with the Quran.

Some Muslims think that why we don’t go for the divine Sharia and why we follow human made systems like Democracy. But Democracy is a better political system not a religion and which is neither divine nor perfect. Religion is divine but Shariah only guides you in beliefs, matters of worship and morality and few basic guidelines for other spheres of life from ethical point of view. Democracy can be evolved according to the needs of the people but Sharia may not be changed because its divine. We don’t need changes in Sharia because it covers only beliefs, worship and morality which are permanent concepts as compared to political, economic or other issues.

I have answered this above.

Christians have made Christianity only a religion and you see how developed they are. We Muslims must follow others in their good things. Islam was never implemented as a complete political or economic system specially after Hazrat Umar because its not meant beyond a religion. The whole progress of Islam is in the sector of religion not other fields. In Spain it was a Muslim rule but it was not the rule of Islam. If you consider the dictators of Umayyads and Abbasids etc as your caliphs and heroes then it will be a big stigma on the face of Islam. They were just Arab rulers and used Islam for the expansion of their empire. Yes the religious Sufis and scholars attracted the people towards the religion not to the system of the hereditary dictators.

You are repeating yourself.

If we accept other cultures and sciences separately and don’t mix it with religion of Islam then I have no need to discuss this issue further. This is the point which I want to explain. Accept other cultures and sciences and systems where they suit Muslims. Yes a Muslim as a Muslim by religion may not accept any thing against Islamic beliefs, Modes of worship and morality.

Where does it say we can't? Again, I think that you have not read the Quran with an open spirit.

The Prophet of Islam gave a spiritual or religious system but he never trained people in politics, economics, sciences or technology. Muslims have problems in this world because they don’t accept or implement the modern ideas of education and politics. For religious non compliance they will have spiritual problems or the punishment in the life after death but the worldly matters may not be amalgamated with the religious or otherworldly matters. If Muslims and Pashtuns maintain this balance in mundane and spiritual or religious aspects of life then they will attain the success what the developed world has achieved. Muslims can present the best model to the world by being successful being good Muslims spiritually and religiously and better human beings politically, economically culturally, technologically like other developed nations. They will be thus better than the West by being successful in both spiritual and mundane spheres of life.

Is morality good? If so, why?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Osho wrora, dearest member,

I read your essay. You repeat yourself a lot and you seem to want everything to be given to you on a platter and fed to you with a golden spoon. I mean this in the kindest possible way.

I want to discuss your essay with you.

The questions that I find most appropriate for our discussion, based on your essay are:

1. What is the purpose of the institution of religion?
2. What is the purpose of the institution of a society?
3. Where does God fit here?