Islam is just a religion like any other religion

[Roshina]

I also make a bold claim like Qrratugai that "ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUAL". Think logically this time.

LOL @ bold. Yes, one needs to think LOGICALLY about it to get it. Otherwise, it won't work.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Why do you call yourself Muslim and not "All-faiths?"

Qrratagai which religion do think is the correct one.

Let us leave this equal business aside, because you have changed the wording of your stance.

[PFgulalai]

Lol..that's pretty clever to highlight the "similar" world in red, and completely ignore the term "nature-wise" (I think you could not understand the context). I, ofcourse, do not agree with you since there is a stark contrast between your understanding of "similar VS equal" and mine one and now I think it is really a hard concept for some people to understand.

Notice the difference between my version of equality and yours:

Mine: On the contrary, being equal is not being similar or identical but at almost same level as you are. You might be completely different from the other person, but you could have equal status. Hence when we talk about the eqaulity of religions, we think they are not same but they are equal in that they all have pretty much the same ingredients (here I am focussing on the nature of ingredients, not on the kind of ingredients). They all have the same purpose (worshipping and to make the God happy) and they all lead to the same end--getting reward from the God in this world or afterlife.

Yours:

Which makes Islam and Hinduism similar but are they Equal? as a Muslimah of course not. We Muslims believe Islam is the right path and Islam will take us to heaven. that alone does not make them equal.

That Religions might be similar but not equal.

I hope now you know we are thinking differently in wholeness.


Since you are more vigiliant in nullifying the opposing argument with your strong Muslim-ness and opponent's Kafir-ness rather than following the norms of decent argument, you will always find it hard to grasp the concept. However I should mention here that considering humans equal and not same or considering religions being equal and not same, does not require one's faith in this or that God or no God, but more an unbaised attitude ("my religion is the best type" one) which unfortunately is missing here.I have read muslim scholars who think entirely different than you.And I know someone will now ask me the sect of that scholar,lol...

Thanks for agreeing with me on something Me,Momin,Khan Gul, Saif and many others were trying to teach Qrratugai. That Religions might be similar but not equal. Apparently that's a hard concept for many to grasp.


Which makes Islam and Hinduism similar but are they Equal? as a Muslimah of course not. We Muslims believe Islam is the right path and Islam will take us to heaven. that alone does not make them equal.
Religions might be similar Gulalai but from an Islamic perspective they are not equal. You have made it clear that you are not a Muslim in previous posts that I have read(correct me if I am wrong) so you see this case like Levanaye Zalmaye would who thinks Islam is just as bad or good as Hinduism. both do this both do that so they are equal.

From an Atheists perspective you might be right[although I can even explain you how you are incorrect with that as well]

But for a self-proclaimed Muslim like Qrratugai to say that Hinduism = Islam that would mean Hinduism can also bring you to Heaven. That is something Islam says can not happen hence the reason why it cant be equal.

We Pashtuns being 99.9 percent Muslim we are debating in terms of Islam.

That's because you are a Kaffir sister. Which is okay and I respect your freedom of choice. But to claim you are a Muslim and to say ALL ARE EQUAL that is incorrect word to use.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Gulaila, why is it that you don't believe in God? Is it safe to assume that you view all religions equal because they are all man-made and all are false anyways?

[Roshina]

Lol..that's pretty clever to highlight the "similar" world in red, and completely ignore the term "nature-wise" (I think you could not understand the context). I, ofcourse, do not agree with you since there is a stark contrast between your understanding of "similar VS equal" and mine one and now I think it is really a hard concept for some people to understand.

Notice the difference between my version of equality and yours:

Mine: On the contrary, being equal is not being similar or identical but at almost same level as you are. You might be completely different from the other person, but you could have equal status. Hence when we talk about the eqaulity of religions, we think they are not same but they are equal in that they all have pretty much the same ingredients (here I am focussing on the nature of ingredients, not on the kind of ingredients). They all have the same purpose (worshipping and to make the God happy) and they all lead to the same end--getting reward from the God in this world or afterlife.

Yours:

Which makes Islam and Hinduism similar but are they Equal? as a Muslimah of course not. We Muslims believe Islam is the right path and Islam will take us to heaven. that alone does not make them equal.

That Religions might be similar but not equal.

I hope now you know we are thinking differently in wholeness.


Since you are more vigiliant in nullifying the opposing argument with your strong Muslim-ness and opponent's Kafir-ness rather than following the norms of decent argument, you will always find it hard to grasp the concept. However I should mention here that considering humans equal and not same or considering religions being equal and not same, does not require one's faith in this or that God or no God, but more an unbaised attitude ("my religion is the best type" one) which unfortunately is missing here.I have read muslim scholars who think entirely different than you.And I know someone will now ask me the sect of that scholar,lol...

Very pleased and relieved to see that you, too, get the difference between equal and same, or that equality does not mean sameness. It's like saying, all religions are NOT equal because all religions are NOT the same. Well, duh. They're not the same; no on says they are (note: They may have some similar beliefs, but they are not the same.)

I also agree that a non-biased perspective is necessary in order to grasp the whole idea of how all religions are equal (again, EQUAL, not the same). Since post 1, I've been saying how all are deserving of equal respect, appreciation, and respect, and I still say that, and somehow it's made some of us believe that to say they're equal is to say Islam = Hinduism.

A biased perspective would be "my religion is better than everyone else's, and hence no other religion is equal to mine -- be it in value or respect or appreciation." Since I'm speaking from an unbiased perspective, one in which NONE are better or worse than any other, I continue believing that all are equal; they're all of equal worth.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Qrratagai, you do understand gulalai does not believe in God? Why are you so relieved that she is backing you up?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Qrratagai, you are changing your stance now. You have clearly stated that all religions are equal. I find it amusing that you don't answer to posts that will corner you, khair...as you please. Please do realize that you are not being honest. Don't take us for fools.

[Roshina]

Qrratagai, you do understand gulalai does not believe in God? Why are you so relieved that she is backing you up?

I'm not relieved that she's backing me up. I don't need ANYONE to back up. If you remember from the very beginning, I've always held a different perspective on pretty much every issue, and I'm very proud of and happy with that. So if you think I need someone to stand with me or back me up, you're wrong.

If you read my post to her, though, you'll see that it said:

I'm very pleased and relieved to see that you, too, get the difference between equal and sameness. Being equal does not mean being the same.

Anyone -- whether an atheist or a theist -- can say this. And I say it from a theist perspective while Gulalai might say it from an atheist perspective.

[Roshina]

Qrratagai, you are changing your stance now. You have clearly stated that all religions are equal. I find it amusing that you don't answer to posts that will corner you, khair...as you please. Please do realize that you are not being honest. Don't take us for fools.

That's correct - I've stated clearly and over and over that ALL religions are equal. I've also explained what it means to be equal (which is certainly not "sameness" like Afghanlady says: If all are equal, then Islam = Hinduism!" Uh, no. If all are equal, then Hinduism becomes JUST as worthy of being followed as Islam is; Hinduism is JUST as worth of being respected and tolerated as Islam is.)

So, my stance has not changed at all.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Why do you avoid to answer questions that will set the record straight?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Its popular trick in forums, Its also known as being a dishonest debater. When they know they are getting cornered, when they fail to offer a response. They begin to change the topic and offer a continuation of rants.



She knows by answering those questions you brought-forward. She will contradict her views.

The Religion which believes all are equal is something ShahRukh Khan brought forward to the main stream media, he said they are all equal, He said he visit the Golden Temple, He prays to Allah, he puts on the Hindu red tikka on his forehead etc. Media can have a negative effect in the West Momin.

I get dumbfounded that she does not answer questions that will resolve this issue.


Qrratagai, you are not being honest, you can't pick and choose questions.

[شمله ور خراساني]

LOL

Qrratugai is being pounded by Afghanlady.

Good goin! I am proud of you Afghanlady. You tell her!

[PFgulalai]

From an Islamic perspective of the issue its not hard at all Gulalai.

Its really common sense, you want to try it again? lets try it again.

Islam = The Truth. (according to Muslims)
Hinduism = Not the truth(according to Muslim)

To say, "Islam and Hinduism are equal"

That is kuffar.

To say, "Islam and Hinduism are similar and we should respect them both"

That I agree with to a certain extent. Its not rocket science Gulalai.

I am afraid to tell you that your mathematical logic is quite a flawed one.

It has already denouncing all kinds of common sense and making it a rocket science if you keep coming up with your flawed mathematical equations. I am curious to know the the nature of your qualitative terms.

Nonethless, here I try your logic to clear your confusion.....and it leads me to this:

Islam = The Truth. (according to Muslims) ----(eq 1)
Hinduism = Not the truth(according to Muslim)---(eq 2)

Combining (1) and (2)

Yes (islam--truth) + =No (hinduism)not the truth - (minus)

+ and - cancels each other and we are left with zero.Zero means absence and hence we are left with no Islam or Hinduism but ZERO. Watch out Afghanlady! you were implying kuffar here??

That is why I mentioned in my earlier posts that one should refrain from using Eqaulity concept for qualititative terms like religious equality since the rules of Mathematical Equality do not apply to qualititative terms but to quantitative terms.

Not at all, I said that for a reason. Don't take offence, If you did take offence for me pointing out the obvious[which you said you are] I apologize.I said it to make things clear, as Muslim would not think they are equal for the reason I provided. I don't care about that scholar or whatever you read I care about you and this discussion. Most importantly I care about those Muslims who are self-proclaimed Muslims yet they talk about how all Religions are equal.If they are Equal Gulalai me and Qrratugai might start visiting the Golden-Temple in Amritsar to perform our Eid prayer.

You must be kidding me to think that I would take offense of such a petty issue. I mean you just called me Kafir, lol. And what else would you use to defend yourself.Although I must say that you have been so kind to me to place me with respectable Levanaye Zalmeye. I felt extremely honored and I would have been offended a lot if you had placed me with a less kafir than him. You could defend your religion as much as you want and I will defend my statement.The difference between you and me is that I see world and it's people through a broader lens (a kafir one) and not your narrow-minded "lens", although unlike you I would never claim that my lens is the perfect one. And it is with my lens that I see all religions equal but not identical.


And yeah, we should definitely make a trip to Golden temple.I have been there once and it's a beautiful one. They are pretty tolerant to muslims.I guess they won't stop you from offering Maanza.

[Roshina]

I must note here that making the "bold" claim (as Afghanlady called it -- and now that I think of it, I think everything "bold" is labeled un-Islamic, just as this claim was labeled as such by her) that ALL religions are equal and none are better or worse than others is something that's contested in academics till today. PhD theses are written on this topic, and scholars debate on this.

So, for me to be sitting here with "ordinary" folks (just like everyone else here, I'm an ordinary person, and by ordinary I mean non-scholar) and making a "bold" claim that requires such lengthy explanations as could be explained only in volumes of books or papers ... is not a very smart move. The smarter move WOULD have been, though, to just let people think about it themselves.

Kha, now, I'm glad that Afghanlady thinks she has the power to challenge me; I appreciate that and even admire that. However, without any intentions of disappointing anyone, I have to say that she has failed to challenge my perspective as of yet. She has implied that she's here to change my views ('cause she's explicitly said over and over that she could teach me a lot), and I'm not even sorry to say this out loud: You're absolutely incapable of changing my view on this whole "all religions are equal" thing. If you think you can change ANYTHING about me without proving me wrong, you might have to sped lifetimes making it happen. As Tor Khan once said to me, "People don't realize that you're a Redwood Tree!" Knowing myself, I can say this is true. So I'm almost surprised that you guys haven't learned by now (after all these 5 or so months on PF) that people have to do a LOT to prove me wrong in anything, or even to get me to agree with them on something.

It's not to sound arrogant or anything, of course. I'm perfectly open to a different perspective or seeing something from a different perspective, and I don't believe my own views are better than others. But I DO believe that anyone who thinks they've the power to change my perspective on something just because they think they're right will never succeed.

I said you haven't proven me wrong anywhere, Afghanlady, because you've ONLY stated that it's "un-Islamic" or "kufar" (which isn't challenging my stance at all) to believe that all religions are equal (again: Equal does NOT mean the same). And you've said that "you think that all religions are equal, which means Hinduism = Christianity = Islam!" This is a sign of your misunderstanding, or the lack of understanding, of my argument, in spite of my many attempts to clarify it over and over.

By the way, a note to you, Afghanlady khor, you said in one of your posts that you asked me questions that were intended to "corner" me. You do realize that that's not what you do in debates/discussions, right? In a debate, you exchange views/opinions/beliefs WITHOUT cornering your opponent. You said in your last post that this is no attack, but you contradicted yourself before that by saying that "we've asked you questions to corner you/your beliefs" or something. In REAL debates, you ask questions when you don't understand a different perspective; you don't make assumptions, and you don't tell someone they're wrong just because they disagree with you. MWMN wrora, you went wrong by saying I'm misguided just because I refuse to believe that Islam is superior to other religions. My following Islam does NOT make it any more superior to all other religions of the earth. You disagree with this, clearly, but we just have to live with this disagreement. I refuse to believe that a certain belief system is superior to another just because I follow it, or just because I prefer it for myself or just because it works for me.

Anyway, disagreements will be there, I guarantee you, but the trick is to learn how to HANDLE them without thinking that just because a person agrees with you, you're right (which brings me to remind you that I'm not the type of person who tells someone, "THANK you for agreeing with me!" I find that immature, a sign of someone who's new at discussions and being exposed to disagreements). As a human, I don't need people to agree with me (my religious, cultural, political, personal, otherwise) values in order for me to appreciate them. In fact, I'm a strong advocate of diversity, and I PROMOTE diversity -- which should explain why I almost ALWAYS come to every discussion with a perspective that's not in sync with the one presented by everyone else. I like differences because I can handle them, and I appreciate them more than I appreciate or like similarities.

Afghanlady, you also keep saying you and MWMN could teach me a lot; at least you seem to think that you CAN teach me something or you're here TO teach me. You do realize, though, that we're supposed to be here to learn as WELL as teach, right? Besides, if you think you've a lot to teach me, do it without saying it. Because so far, I've gotten nothing from you, and I'm still waiting.

As for the discussion is concerned, MWMN presents nothing different than Afghanlady: He argues that "To say that All religions are equal is to say that you can be a Muslim WHILE believing that it's okay to believe in more than one God."

Where he goes wrong is this: I don't and have nowhere said that you be a Muslim AND a Hindu at the same time. It's another thing, however, when someone wants to combine different religious beliefs and thoughts and make one religion out of them for her/himself. But that's not my argument here, and that's not the stance in question here. The stance in question is this:

All religions are equal, and that means none are better or worse than any others. (Again: I've said this a thousand times so far in this same thread.) People can be whatever they wanna be while *I* remain whatever I am or change into whatever I believe is right. THAT's what it means to equally respect, appreciate, and tolerate all religions, without believing that your own deserves some special treatment just because you follow it.

There's nothing I can do about your choice to select parts of my posts to read and ignore others, or take them out of context. Just like Afghanlady did with Gulalai's posts, she took my statement that "All religions are equal" WITHOUT reading further where I explained what that means. You wanna talk about intellectual dishonesty? This is a perfect example of it.

Anyway, I've gone through Afghanlady's and MWMN's posts thrice so far, wondering where Afghanlady thinks she's succeeding in proving me wrong or even challenging me, and have found nothing new. MWMN thinks that his "challenge" to my view (which is that ALL religions are equal and none are better or worse than others) can be responded to by his asking me whether I believe in God or not! To me, that has nothing to do with anything, although just to answer his question, yeah, of course I believe in God -- but my belief in God is in NO way superior to another person's disbelieve in God.

That's because I believe that you can be a theist or an atheist and believe in the equality of all religions (just like you can be a rich or a poor person WHILE believing in the equality of all humans). Again and again (for the sake of this discussion and those who are fooling themselves in believing that I'm going to resort to agreeing with them when they see their beliefs as superior to all other people's when I DON'T see anyone's beliefs as superior OR inferior to mine), I explain and elaborate on what it means to be equal.

You can believe your religion is the ONLY correct one, and that's fine; but that doesn't make any other religions of any lower value.

THAT has been my stance from the very beginning. Yet, Afghanlady and MWMN think I'm changing my position when I merely help explain to help the two of you get what it means for religions to be equal. So again: My stance has not changed at all, as I believe right now as well that all religions are equal and none are better or worse that, or inferior or superior to, others.

In order for me to change my stance, I've to be proven wrong. And how is one to prove me wrong that a certain religion is more superior to another religion? I need an unbiased person to come here and tell me, "Religion X is superior to Religion Y, and here's why."

But no one has proven me wrong. Telling me that it's "kufar" doesn't prove my position wrong.

I'll watch out for this thread in case someone succeeds in proving me wrong, or proving to me from an unbiased mind how a certain belief system is superior to all others. Don't ask any more questions; just simply prove it wrong. Reminder for those who don't like to read in full:

All religions are equal in value and merit, none are better or worse than others, none are superior or inferior to others, and all have equal right to exist and be followed.

Prove this wrong if you believe otherwise.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

There are a lot of flaws in your post. You are accusing without base. Let us leave this equal business aside, because you have changed the wording of your stance.

Anyhow, Qrratagai khore, answer this:

Why do you call yourself Muslim and not "All-faiths?"

Qrratagai which religion do think is the correct one?