Astounding exam results of Malala Yousafzai, a slap on the face of critics

[Kushan Prince]

You are sure about Jajis but not about Turis, why?. Both are cousin tribes and claim common descent.
tilla_jogian can you post those harappa studies about samples from kurram?

The purpose is not to annoy [MENTION=1547]khushal[/MENTION] or belittle him. I promised him that i would share the material about some studies which indicate that his Jaji tribe and Turi tribes are of non-Pashtun origin. He got offended it seems, as when i got permanently banned , he claimed on a thread that i run away because of him. He thought i made up some stuff to insult him, thats not the case, some studies and works do exist which indicate that Jajis and their cousin Turis are of non-Pashtun origin and are not true Karlanries.


..........................................



The Turis, or Torizais as they are sometimes called, are a tribe of whose origin little definite is known, but all authorities are agreed that if Afghans at all they are not Afghans of pure descent. Lumsden says they are of Mughal extraction ; Ibbetson regards them as being probably Tartar tribes which accompanied Chengis Khan and Timur in their Indian raids ; Bonarjee calls them a tribe of mixed blood — Indian stock with a Tartar admixture ; while Edwardes and others say that they are a Hindki race, some sixty families of whom, about four or five hundred years ago, because of drought, migrated from their native country in the Punjab (opposite Nilab on the Indus in the Kohat district).to the Kurram Valley, or, as it was then called, the Bangash Valley, and became hamsayas of its inhabitants. They themselves support this last tradition, but say that the ancestor who originally settled at Nilab was one Torghani Turk, who came from Persia. In his diary of the year 1506 the Emperor Baber mentions the presence of Turis in the Kurram Valley. About the year 1700, owing to a quarrel arising out of insults offered to Turi women, the Turis and Jajis, who were then united, attacked the Bangash, and the Turis gradually made themselves masters of the Kurram Valley, the Bangash remaining on in their turn as hamsayas. [1]


In 1702 A.D. the Turis and Jajis, tribes of Awan origin, whose permanent homes were near Nilab on the Indus, and who migrated annually during the summer to the Kurram valley, remained there as vassals of Bangashs. They subsequently got involved in a fight with Bangash over the elopement of a Turi woman with a Bangash. As a result they expelled some of the neighboring Bangash clans and got settled there permanently. [2]


Formerly, the Kurram valley was possessed by the Bungashes, and divided into Upper and Lower Bungash, the latter including all the Bungash lands of Kohat. The Turis at that time were a wandering tribe, having their chief seat at Nilab, on the Indus, but roaming with their flocks over all the country between that place and Caubul. According to the Bungash accounts, the Turis established themselves in Kurram about four generations ago. The Bungashes had rebelled against the king of Caubul; a force was sent against them, and a fine imposed as a penalty for their misconduct. This fine the Turis engaged to pay if the Bungashes would cede certain lands to them. In an evil hour the Bungashes consented; and from that time, by one pretext or another, the Turis have obtained complete ascendancy in the valley, and reduced the Bungashes to the condition of Fakeers. [3]


Turis themselves claim descent from one Toghani Turk who came from Persia and settled at Nilab in the Punjab. [4]


The Turi/and Jaji/themselves state that their common ancestor, Toghani Turk, had migrated from Persia to Nilab, while another tradition names Samarkand as the dwelling place of their forefather. [5]


References:


1- Harold Carmichael Wylly, From the Black Mountain to Waziristan, p-410-411
2- Pathans: Compiled Under the Order of the Government of India at the Recruiting Office, Peshawar, p-9
3- Foreign Quarterly and Westminster Review, Volume 36, 1868, p-480
4- Ridgway, Pashtoons: History, Culture & Traditions, p-1585- Studia Iranica, Volumes 15-16, p-203

I heard Turi's score high South Asian on DNA tests which is why they are doubted by many people of even being real Pashtuns. It could be true, that they are outcasts who adopted Pashto language and culture since many people of KPK adopted Pashto as the regional language. However, I have never heard of Zazi's being of non-Pashtun origin, your sources also do not mention that. Your just lumping Khogyani's, Turis and Zazis together because they are all Karlani's, but that doesn't mean they are all related. Zazai's to my knowledge has alwaYS inhabitted the Loya Paktia area, it not make sense for a band of Turis to migrate west to less fertile land. And yes you are trolling Khushal, your trying to say his whole identity is fake and that his ancestors lied about who they were, that is not right. Its like me saying that marwats are actually of indian descent because they are Lohani's who were originally of ksyhatria hindu decent. Its illogical and and confusing. All these books about our history and different tribes are written by Englishmen who once visited Pashtun soil, all of their reports are nothing more than mere opinions and speculations with more fiction than truth. One Author may say that Zazai's and Marwats are not Pashtun while another source may say they are. Honestly, this is what happens when you have no written history, you resort to speculation.

Btw, please stop recommending me that "makhzan-i-afghani" book. Its nothing more than filled with innuendos and crackpot theories and is a reason its not taken seriously in Afghan classrooms.

[Adam]

You can see the HGDP Pathan results here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...kkU/edit#gid=0 , in regards to the "South Asian" percentage, they're quite varied, the highest being 36% and the lowest being 11%.
If they were from somewhere across the indus (and never intermarried with local Pashtuns) their results would most likely all be over 30%

[Samandri]

Btw, please stop recommending me that "makhzan-i-afghani" book. Its nothing more than filled with innuendos and crackpot theories and is a reason its not taken seriously in Afghan classrooms.

Yea we should learn history from professor like you.

[Kushan Prince]

You can see the HGDP Pathan results here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...kkU/edit#gid=0 , in regards to the "South Asian" percentage, they're quite varied, the highest being 36% and the lowest being 11%.
If they were from somewhere across the indus (and never intermarried with local Pashtuns) their results would most likely all be over 30%

Yes but these results were done on Paki Pashtuns since it uses the term "Pathan." It doesn't make sense that Balochis have lower south asian than Pashtuns who are notorious for mixing with Sindhi's for decades.

All these tests prove that PAk Pashtuns have higher south asian admixture due to the area once being a dardic stronghold.

[Kushan Prince]

Yea we should learn history from professor like you.

I'm surprised you are now finding out that genetics is the truth to answers, i remember you saying that genetics was bogus before? lol.

[Samandri]

I'm surprised you are now finding out that genetics is the truth to answers, i remember you saying that genetics was bogus before? lol.

How are you, Ibn-i-Khaldun

[khushal]

You are sure about Jajis but not about Turis, why?. Both are cousin tribes and claim common descent.
tilla_jogian can you post those harappa studies about samples from kurram?

The purpose is not to annoy [MENTION=1547]khushal[/MENTION] or belittle him. I promised him that i would share the material about some studies which indicate that his Jaji tribe and Turi tribes are of non-Pashtun origin. He got offended it seems, as when i got permanently banned , he claimed on a thread that i run away because of him. He thought i made up some stuff to insult him, thats not the case, some studies and works do exist which indicate that Jajis and their cousin Turis are of non-Pashtun origin and are not true Karlanries.


..........................................



The Turis, or Torizais as they are sometimes called, are a tribe of whose origin little definite is known, but all authorities are agreed that if Afghans at all they are not Afghans of pure descent. Lumsden says they are of Mughal extraction ; Ibbetson regards them as being probably Tartar tribes which accompanied Chengis Khan and Timur in their Indian raids ; Bonarjee calls them a tribe of mixed blood — Indian stock with a Tartar admixture ; while Edwardes and others say that they are a Hindki race, some sixty families of whom, about four or five hundred years ago, because of drought, migrated from their native country in the Punjab (opposite Nilab on the Indus in the Kohat district).to the Kurram Valley, or, as it was then called, the Bangash Valley, and became hamsayas of its inhabitants. They themselves support this last tradition, but say that the ancestor who originally settled at Nilab was one Torghani Turk, who came from Persia. In his diary of the year 1506 the Emperor Baber mentions the presence of Turis in the Kurram Valley. About the year 1700, owing to a quarrel arising out of insults offered to Turi women, the Turis and Jajis, who were then united, attacked the Bangash, and the Turis gradually made themselves masters of the Kurram Valley, the Bangash remaining on in their turn as hamsayas. [1]


In 1702 A.D. the Turis and Jajis, tribes of Awan origin, whose permanent homes were near Nilab on the Indus, and who migrated annually during the summer to the Kurram valley, remained there as vassals of Bangashs. They subsequently got involved in a fight with Bangash over the elopement of a Turi woman with a Bangash. As a result they expelled some of the neighboring Bangash clans and got settled there permanently. [2]


Formerly, the Kurram valley was possessed by the Bungashes, and divided into Upper and Lower Bungash, the latter including all the Bungash lands of Kohat. The Turis at that time were a wandering tribe, having their chief seat at Nilab, on the Indus, but roaming with their flocks over all the country between that place and Caubul. According to the Bungash accounts, the Turis established themselves in Kurram about four generations ago. The Bungashes had rebelled against the king of Caubul; a force was sent against them, and a fine imposed as a penalty for their misconduct. This fine the Turis engaged to pay if the Bungashes would cede certain lands to them. In an evil hour the Bungashes consented; and from that time, by one pretext or another, the Turis have obtained complete ascendancy in the valley, and reduced the Bungashes to the condition of Fakeers. [3]


Turis themselves claim descent from one Toghani Turk who came from Persia and settled at Nilab in the Punjab. [4]


The Turi/and Jaji/themselves state that their common ancestor, Toghani Turk, had migrated from Persia to Nilab, while another tradition names Samarkand as the dwelling place of their forefather. [5]


References:


1- Harold Carmichael Wylly, From the Black Mountain to Waziristan, p-410-411
2- Pathans: Compiled Under the Order of the Government of India at the Recruiting Office, Peshawar, p-9
3- Foreign Quarterly and Westminster Review, Volume 36, 1868, p-480
4- Ridgway, Pashtoons: History, Culture & Traditions, p-1585- Studia Iranica, Volumes 15-16, p-203

Your banning wasn't because of me. I was not aware you were even banned.

So anyways, Zazai, Turai, Ghugyanai are cousin tribes is backed up by the fact that the spoken dialect is exactly the same. One can not tell them a part.

Here we have Edward Belfour who wrote this in 1885:

https://books.google.com/books?id=3U0OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=jaji+moghul&source=bl&ots=Xd2guh-c13&sig=6DWDZg-xWhm1jTY8s8bkMUial_I&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAGoVChMIovHymsadyAIVAQWSCh2bFQRg#v=onepage&q=jaji%20moghul&f=false

He claims that the Turis are originally from rawalpindi but does not mention Zazis, and that the Turis started to inhabit Kurrum in the 18th century
which does not make sense since The Mughul emperor Babur stated in his memoirs about settled Turis in Kurrum in the early 1500's and made no mention about Bangush in Kurrum.

Bafour also notes that the two tribes believe that they are descendants of two Moghul brothers which they probably got the story from the Turis and wanted to claim some kind of importance. Zazis are much more isolated and really did not have any major contact with the Brits or the Moghuls.



Here you have Bellow who wrote this in 1880 on Page 80. He claims that Turis are not originally Afghan and are recent inhabitants of Kurrum and Lt Col. Edwards is of the opinion that they are Khatar p. 210

https://books.google.com/books?id=3U0OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA210&dq=jaji+moghul+origins&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAGoVChMIzd_ZrM6dyAIVhVaSCh0zUwAt#v=onepage&q=jaji%20moghul%20origins&f=false

But here he claims that the Turis themselves caim that they are Khattar Rajputs but it does not appear among their clans p. 98

https://books.google.com/books?id=PUooAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=jaji+turi+moghul&source=bl&ots=WJTfJz9Qj9&sig=OLETrPHKIKBnG_xflux7adH3AfA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEQQ6AEwCGoVChMIs7zTjdudyAIVAw2SCh1SZQzy#v=onepage&q=jaji%20turi%20moghul&f=false

Which we can conclude that LT COl Edwards got the info from the Turis themselves which is probably has more to do with trying to ally themselves with the Brits against Sunni enemies that surround them.
One of your own sources claims that the Turi regard the Brits as their savior and that Shiaism is close to Christianity: p. 413

https://books.google.com/books?id=69y1AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=from+the+black+mountains+to+waziristan+harold+carmichael&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAGoVChMI-7KPg-OdyAIVigOSCh2d8gSA#v=onepage&q=from%20the%20black%20mountains%20to%20waziristan%20harold%20carmichael&f=false

Here you have Bellow claiming that Turi, Zazi and Mangal are of the same descent: p 99

https://books.google.com/books?id=PUooAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=jaji+turi+moghul&source=bl&ots=WJTfJz9Qj9&sig=OLETrPHKIKBnG_xflux7adH3AfA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEQQ6AEwCGoVChMIs7zTjdudyAIVAw2SCh1SZQzy#v=onepage&q=jaji%20turi%20moghul&f=false

So if they are of the same descent, then all must be of Khattar Rajputs.


Here on page 95 you have Bellow claiming that Shinwari could be Albanian and then claims probably Indians of Rajput descent:

https://books.google.com/books?id=PUooAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=jaji+turi+moghul&source=bl&ots=WJTfJz9Qj9&sig=OLETrPHKIKBnG_xflux7adH3AfA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEQQ6AEwCGoVChMIs7zTjdudyAIVAw2SCh1SZQzy#v=onepage&q=jaji%20turi%20moghul&f=false

and then here in page 80 you have Bellow claiming Shinwari to be of Persian descent:

https://books.google.com/books?id=kQpOAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA121&dq=jaji+moghul+origins&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBWoVChMIzd_ZrM6dyAIVhVaSCh0zUwAt#v=onepage&q=shinwari&f=false

[khushal]

In essence, it is all speculation. The Brit authors really dont have any primary source to back any of their speculations. But it is reasonable to conclude that most of the pashtun tribes have pashtunized at some time since we all have different dialects. We probably spoke different languages just like those tribes in Nuristan who speak different languages are also today slowly becoming pashtunized.

[Kushan Prince]

In essence, it is all speculation. The Brit authors really dont have any primary source to back any of their speculations. But it is reasonable to conclude that most of the pashtun tribes have pashtunized at some time since we all have different dialects. We probably spoke different languages just like those tribes in Nuristan who speak different languages are also today slowly becoming pashtunized.

Agreed, its all speculation but Nuristanis speak languages that are closely related to each other and even a Pashto or Dari speaking Nuristani still sees himself as a Nuristani. Dialect differences don't exactly mean one tribe spoke a different language, all languages have dialects.

Zazis are def Pashtun though, they look like Pashtuns and dress like them. I would also like to point out that the Brits stationed in KPK were not historians but mere soldiers and governers. The English are notable for creating far-fecthed theories.

[khushal]

Agreed, its all speculation but Nuristanis speak languages that are closely related to each other and even a Pashto or Dari speaking Nuristani still sees himself as a Nuristani. Dialect differences don't exactly mean one tribe spoke a different language, all languages have dialects.

Zazis are def Pashtun though, they look like Pashtuns and dress like them. I would also like to point out that the Brits stationed in KPK were not historians but mere soldiers and governers. The English are notable for creating far-fecthed theories.

The Brits wrote what they could and documented what people of the region themselves were saying but they were dealing with people that have oral traditions and did not have any primary written sources which are more valid. That is not the Brits fault, they just did not have better tools available to them.

But acknowledging that we were pashtunized does not make us any less pashtun. There was a time where there was no pashto since languages evolve over time. Dont worry about it, its an opinion.

[Afghanfootball]

This is in my opinion the best explanation as to how Pashtuns came to be.
"The Pashtuns began as a union of largely East-Iranian tribes which became the initial ethnic stratum of the Pashtun ethnogenesis, dates from the middle of the first millennium CE and is connected with the dissolution of the Epthalite (White Huns) confederacy."

[Samandri]

Your banning wasn't because of me. I was not aware you were even banned.

What was this all about?,

He is not banned, He ran away from my questions.

I told you that Turis and Jajis are generally considered of non-Pashtun stock, i promised you that i would give proper references when i come across it. When i got banned, you were announcing around that i run away from your questions?.

[Kushan Prince]

The Brits wrote what they could and documented what people of the region themselves were saying but they were dealing with people that have oral traditions and did not have any primary written sources which are more valid. That is not the Brits fault, they just did not have better tools available to them.

But acknowledging that we were pashtunized does not make us any less pashtun. There was a time where there was no pashto since languages evolve over time. Dont worry about it, its an opinion.

No doubt the British also documented what the locals said about themselves but for the most part they were notable for creating stories to fit their agenda. I remember reading a piece when some British noble came up with the theory that Pashtuns were a mixture of Greeks and Rajputs. That itself was just laughable to me and not worth believing. Either way, genetics have shown that Pashtun tribes are more or less related to each other, i think genetics is a good way for a people like Pashtuns with no written history to use and invest it in.

[Samandri]

In essence, it is all speculation. The Brit authors really dont have any primary source to back any of their speculations.

True. But the claim of "Toghani Turks" from Persia who settled in Nilab, was not a invention of British, Turis told them so. Moreover its Bangash, not British, who assert that Turis and Jajis were once their "hamsaya".

There are four tribes in Khugiani......Darman, Parba, Turi and Jaji, but almost every source has doubts about the last two as being true Khugiani.

[Samandri]

[MENTION=5723]Kushan Prince[/MENTION] you are arguing from a very different perspective, you are Afghanistani farsiwan supremacist who lives in the fantasy that Bar Afghans are the true and purest ones and that Pashtuns sprung from Balkh (your province). I noticed that you got o.k with Turis but got infuriated by the suggestion that Zazis from Afghanistan could be from river indus bank on Punjab side. Just because detailed census were never conducted in Afghanistan, doesnt mean pure elf races live there. Pashtun society is same every where, with same stratification and classes. Your Uzbeki Balkh is not a Pashtun area.

Turis and Jajis are firece Pashtuns today, because they got rid of hamsaya status and acquired the areas by conquest, they were already speaking Pashto before 1702.......after that , they lived by Pashto. Pashto (Pashtunwali) is not acquired by birth, it is an influence and code.

Following are the other tribes who are not Pashtuns by lineage but are part of Pashtun nation

1- Swati
2- wardak
3- gandapur
4- Mashwani
5- Ushtarani
6- Farmuli etc