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  • #16
    It was the same case in the West not so long ago.
    Even now, it is not perfect here. Curriculae are still being revised & updated.

    However there has been a gradual evolution - a shift from the rote learning techniques of the 20th century. Learning, on the whole, is more orientated these days to theories & concepts rather than the mechanical memorization of facts & figures (for most subjects at least). A question on an A-level Physics paper is more likely now to test a students' understanding of a concept requiring one to write several sentences rather than simply asking a mathematical question that only really tests a students' ability to memorise something they read in their textbook the day before the exam.


    I wrote an essay about all this not so long ago concerning the nature of effective learning techniques and referenced various renowned experts on the subject.




    The same evolution that took place in the West needs to take place back home but only when the time is right. We need the current generation of rote-learners in Afghanistan to first aquire the neccesary skills & knowledge and only then change the way they teach rather than teaching theoretically from the offset. It is not a process that can be done immediately. We have a shortfall of people who possess the right knowledge, let alone those who can pass on that knowledge in an effective manner.
    ---
    To advise others is an easy matter, the difficulty is accepting advice -- since it is bitter for those who follow their
    own inclinations and desires
    .


    -Imam al Ghazali

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Admin Khan View Post
      No, they are pretty similar. Although its more geared towards CSE applications.

      CSE is a branch of Math, and its theory(like what you learn in Theory of Computation) is just as theoretical as any other Math class. Writing code is like writing proofs. Think about it.

      Remember, CSE!=programming. Its arguably the most diverse field since its applications are near infinite. Think AI, Machine learning, Algorithms, etc.
      So yeah, CS is your solution.


      Caveat: CS has been traditionally offered as a concentration for Applied Math majors, through the Math department. It actually still is in some cases.

      Hmmm from the code I have written, and granted it isn't that much; I don't see it like writing proofs other than you establish certain initialization. really don't feel that mathematical; I'm sure some of the algorithmic structures are mathematical, you program functions. Even can develop programs which can operate as a type of proof scheme or find numeric solutions. I still don't see computing theory that as making it mathematics in itself. I am aware of the opinion that many people view it as a branch of mathematics, I just don't agree.

      You're right traditionally it has been buttressed to Mathematics; because Mathematicians were the ones who developed much of this stuff. Logic Gates , Discrete Structures and so on.

      Right now I am geared towards Mathematical Physics; so my level of CS knowledge, needs to only be able to understand how programs can be used rather than developing my own programs. Albeit some MATLAB coding knowledge needed.
      [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

      2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by sahil112 View Post
        true but 1 day inshallah i want to solve one of the millennium problems with special interest in yang-mills theory
        I'm confused ......Yangs Mills Theory is Mathematical Physics; i thought you just want to focus on Pure Math? If you want to go to the Pure Math route, solve one of the topological problems like the Poincare Conjecture.
        [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

        2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

        Comment


        • #19
          Actually if you really want good career in Pure Mathematics, be a Number Theorist, finding large prime numbers will make you a gold mine.
          [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

          2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by RevolutionThroughReason View Post
            I'm confused ......Yangs Mills Theory is Mathematical Physics; i thought you just want to focus on Pure Math? If you want to go to the Pure Math route, solve one of the topological problems like the Poincare Conjecture.
            i do want to focus on that BUT this specific theory interests me a lot and who is to say i am not allowed to do it in spare time? give it a go see where it leads me probably wont solve it, most defiantly wont solve it but dosnt hurt to try
            Ka Makh De Rana Hear Sho No Jehan Ba Rana Hear She
            Ka Nom De Rana Hear Sho No Khpal Zan Ba Rana Her She[

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by RevolutionThroughReason View Post
              Actually if you really want good career in Pure Mathematics, be a Number Theorist, finding large prime numbers will make you a gold mine.
              oh ino man!!! its weird that something kind of simple like that is still not very well understood if you get me?

              like there are tests for prime numbers uno example wilsons primality test or fermats primality test but they dont alwys work as you no we can get carmicheal numbers etc

              its huge for cryptography init
              Ka Makh De Rana Hear Sho No Jehan Ba Rana Hear She
              Ka Nom De Rana Hear Sho No Khpal Zan Ba Rana Her She[

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by sahil112 View Post
                oh ino man!!! its weird that something kind of simple like that is still not very well understood if you get me?

                like there are tests for prime numbers uno example wilsons primality test or fermats primality test but they dont alwys work as you no we can get carmicheal numbers etc

                its huge for cryptography init

                simple, who cares getting large numbers and proving them to be prime makes serious money and number theorists have great careers.
                [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

                2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by RevolutionThroughReason View Post
                  Hmmm from the code I have written, and granted it isn't that much; I don't see it like writing proofs other than you establish certain initialization.
                  It depends on how fluent you are with writing code, once you've written several thousands of code, contributing to a project, you will realize how it's sort of like writing proofs. Any illogical move can cost you. The process of debugging, and making sure it matches the specifications all requires a mathematical approach, something most struggle at. That's why most mathematicians opt for the CSE route in major research universities. Think about it, EECS of MIT is their most popular major, and the list goes on. Industry has a large demand for those mathematicians that can think in an algorithmic way so they can write code. Often times, the "code-writing" part is the easiest, the difficult part is formulating a logical algorithm, and that's where the proof writing part comes into effect. I'm talking about writing a major software from scratch(think 20,000 lines of code, all by yourself, where it must meet a criteria to pass).

                  really don't feel that mathematical;
                  CS is mathematics, made my mathematicians. That's why nearly every CSE guy you run into, has a double major in applied math. In most CS programs, there is more studying theory, than actual applications. Then you have some CS programs that focus more on the applications. All in all, the theory is there. We can not discriminate against various types of theories.
                  I'm sure some of the algorithmic structures are mathematical, you program functions. Even can develop programs which can operate as a type of proof scheme or find numeric solutions. I still don't see computing theory that as making it mathematics in itself. I am aware of the opinion that many people view it as a branch of mathematics, I just don't agree.
                  CSE guys take just as much Math as a Math major, although a different flavor of Math. CSE guys are more geared towards logic, dealing with finite automatons, etc.
                  You're right traditionally it has been buttressed to Mathematics; because Mathematicians were the ones who developed much of this stuff. Logic Gates , Discrete Structures and so on.

                  Right now I am geared towards Mathematical Physics; so my level of CS knowledge, needs to only be able to understand how programs can be used rather than developing my own programs. Albeit some MATLAB coding knowledge needed.
                  Once you learn how to write code(at an advanced level)there is no going back. Trust me RTR, I can picture you writing code.
                  Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

                  A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

                  For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


                  The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

                  -Ferishta, 1560–1620

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Admin Khan View Post
                    I]CSE guys take just as much Math as a Math major, although a different flavor of Math. CSE guys are more geared towards logic, dealing with finite automatons, etc.

                    When do C.S.E. guys do Algebraic Structures, Lie Algebra, Real Analysis or topology?......I realize there are programs that techniques from these are applied; but that is different than the computer science or computer systems engineering.

                    Theoretical Mathematics implies something much different than even Theoretical Physics. The rigor of Mathematical Theory sets it apart from all other sciences.
                    [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

                    2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by RevolutionThroughReason View Post
                      When do C.S.E. guys do Algebraic Structures, Lie Algebra, Real Analysis or topology?......I realize there are programs that techniques from these are applied; but that is different than the computer science or computer systems engineering.
                      Malgara, we use all of that. If I may, there a few corrections here. Hope you don't mind, first of all. CSE stands for 'Computer Science and Engineering', it's an ABET accredited curriculum that blends in the fruits of Math, EE, and CS. Only a few schools are capable of offering such a degree, since ABET accreditation is an exhaustive process, which most chairs try to avoid like the plague. You have to give course reviews, and write hundreds of pages just to remain accredited. The bright side is the ability to work as a patent lawyer, etc.

                      Now back to the topic, Real Analysis, and Topology are both used extensively in Computer Science. Topology is used for the description of programming language semantics, along with automated program verification. There are many lectures on the role of Topology in Computer Science. I can provide you with a paper that specifically goes on and talks about it's role in CS. Real Analysis? Dude, that's arguably one of the most important courses for a CSE student. It's needed for information theory, and most Math departments offer in such a strategic way, that it caters for CS students. Real Analysis is just as important to a CSE major, as Applied combinatorics and graph theory is.


                      The rigor of Mathematical Theory sets it apart from all other sciences.
                      Everything you learn in Math can in any form or shape be applied to it's branch, Computer Science.
                      Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

                      A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

                      For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


                      The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

                      -Ferishta, 1560–1620

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Admin Khan View Post
                        Malgara, we use all of that. If I may, there a few corrections here. Hope you don't mind, first of all. CSE stands for 'Computer Science and Engineering', it's an ABET accredited curriculum that blends in the fruits of Math, EE, and CS. Only a few schools are capable of offering such a degree, since ABET accreditation is an exhaustive process, which most chairs try to avoid like the plague. You have to give course reviews, and write hundreds of pages just to remain accredited. The bright side is the ability to work as a patent lawyer, etc.

                        Now back to the topic, Real Analysis, and Topology are both used extensively in Computer Science. Topology is used for the description of programming language semantics, along with automated program verification. There are many lectures on the role of Topology in Computer Science. I can provide you with a paper that specifically goes on and talks about it's role in CS. Real Analysis? Dude, that's arguably one of the most important courses for a CSE student. It's needed for information theory, and most Math departments offer in such a strategic way, that it caters for CS students. Real Analysis is just as important to a CSE major, as Applied combinatorics and graph theory is.



                        Everything you learn in Math can in any form or shape be applied to it's branch, Computer Science.


                        Where do you use Galois Theorem? or Cauchy Shwarz Inequality? or Cohomology of Finite Abelian Groups. As deep as C.S.E goes into Math is maybe Complex Analysis, but much of the proving is not done. Where is topology used in C.S.E?!?!?!?! I mean, Physics for sure, but C.S.E.? Whee does the concept of boundary in manifolds come into play in C.S.E.?
                        [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

                        2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Admin Khan View Post


                          Everything you learn in Math can in any form or shape be applied to it's branch, Computer Science.
                          Example? If you give me a computational example. Then this discourse is over. LOL
                          [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

                          2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by RevolutionThroughReason View Post
                            Where do you use Galois Theorem? or Cauchy Shwarz Inequality? or Cohomology of Finite Abelian Groups. As deep as C.S.E goes into Math is maybe Complex Analysis, but much of the proving is not done. Where is topology used in C.S.E?!?!?!?! I mean, Physics for sure, but C.S.E.? Whee does the concept of boundary in manifolds come into play in C.S.E.?
                            Everything you mentioned, has a potential role in the vast field of CS. However, obviously it won't use every single Mathematical theorem invented(maybe in the future, you might add some use to it, the potential is there)but the point here is you can apply your thinking style to CS. Problem-solving is crucial, and that's something very important to CS.

                            Anyways, you primarily asked where is topology used in CSE.
                            Well, there are even books about it's role.


                            Workshops:

                            And your favorite, theory:
                            Partial orders, CPOs, continuous functions, least fixed points, the Scott topology and powerdomains: the mathematics behind denotational semantics, with a reading list.


                            I hope you get the point now, it's not as black and white as it might appear. Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes.

                            - Edsger Dijkstra
                            Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

                            A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

                            For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


                            The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

                            -Ferishta, 1560–1620

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Read carefully about Computation:
                              Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

                              A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

                              For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


                              The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

                              -Ferishta, 1560–1620

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Admin Khan View Post
                                Everything you mentioned, has a potential role in the vast field of CS. However, obviously it won't use every single Mathematical theorem invented(maybe in the future, you might add some use to it, the potential is there)but the point here is you can apply your thinking style to CS. Problem-solving is crucial, and that's something very important to CS.

                                Anyways, you primarily asked where is topology used in CSE.
                                Well, there are even books about it's role.


                                Workshops:

                                And your favorite, theory:
                                Partial orders, CPOs, continuous functions, least fixed points, the Scott topology and powerdomains: the mathematics behind denotational semantics, with a reading list.


                                I hope you get the point now, it's not as black and white as it might appear. Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes.

                                - Edsger Dijkstra

                                Question: is this is what is being taught in mainstream computer science?
                                [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

                                2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

                                Comment

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