The Great Osho ...He changed me completely. Let us know him and discuss his ideas.

[$hiva]

Yes sufis are undercover shias who worship Allah.

That is your problem.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Another question we should be asking is if Osho is a Sufi as Badlun claims

Why is he not recognized as an Awliyah by other Sufi Masters from the Qadiri, Chishti, Naqshbandi, Suhrawardi, Shadili ..orders?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Yes sufis are undercover shias who worship Ali.

You generalize too much.

[badmash_khel]

Osho is not a Sufi, Anyone who doesn't follow the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw) can not be a sufi. Sufism (Tassawuf) is the spiritual(inwardly) aspect of Islam while Shariah is the practical (outwardly) aspect of Islam. One can not benifit from the teachings of Islam by just following Sharia (outwardly acts) if one doesn't also purify themselves inwardly by cleansing onself of destructive qualities such as pride, envy etc. Mere acts without knowledge and pure intentions is idioacy and self deciet while having knowledge and good intentions but not acting upon them is hypocracy.
I am not familiar enough with Osho's teachings to criticize or praise him. All the wise people of the world teach the same message but in a different way. If Osho's teachings have benifited somebody then good luck to them.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Exactly ...in Sufism ...you have Batin and Dhahir. the Dhahir is Shari'ah and the Batin without the Dhahir the Batin does not work and Without Batin Dhahir does not work.

These people playing off the Lofty words of Real Sufis are really just imposters trying to fool people out of their money. That's why Osho drove a Rolls Royce; he was stealing money from people.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

You generalize too much.

Honestly, do you really consider modern day sufis as legit?

Where are the Abdulqadir al Jilanis, hasan al Basris and ibrahim adhams of our time? All we have is crypto shias.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Osho is not a Sufi, Anyone who doesn't follow the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw) can not be a sufi. Sufism (Tassawuf) is the spiritual(inwardly) aspect of Islam while Shariah is the practical (outwardly) aspect of Islam. One can not benifit from the teachings of Islam by just following Sharia (outwardly acts) if one doesn't also purify themselves inwardly by cleansing onself of destructive qualities such as pride, envy etc. Mere acts without knowledge and pure intentions is idioacy and self deciet while having knowledge and good intentions but not acting upon them is hypocracy.
I am not familiar enough with Osho's teachings to criticize or praise him. All the wise people of the world teach the same message but in a different way. If Osho's teachings have benifited somebody then good luck to them.

Thats just crap. Inward purification is legislated in Shariah. Its not seperated from Shariah.

[badmash_khel]

Thats just crap. Inward purification is legislated in Shariah. Its not seperated from Shariah.

I never said they are seperate but two sides of the same coin.

Inward purification might be legislated in the Sharia but just reading about it won't purify you. That's why everyone needs a living spiritual teacher, an enlightened being to explain the Sharia and its true meaning. The Sahaba had Mohammad (saw) to guide them. A spiritual teacher is a like a doctor who looks at the state of the patient and prescribes him something accordingly.
Thats what the sufi teachers are there for. To guide the muslims to the straight path with the help of Allah (swt).

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

I never said they are seperate but two sides of the same coin.

Inward purification might be legislated in the Sharia but just reading about it won't purify you. That's why everyone needs a living spiritual teacher, an enlightened being to explain the Sharia and its true meaning. The Sahaba had Mohammad (saw) to guide them. A spiritual teacher is a like a doctor who looks at the state of the patient and prescribes him something accordingly.
Thats what the sufi teachers are there for. To guide the muslims to the straight path with the help of Allah (swt).

Is there a difference between a scholar and a sufi master?

[badmash_khel]

Is there a difference between a scholar and a sufi master?

In the case of the Prophet Mohmmad (saw) and the sahabas (ra) and the righteous generations, NO.

In the case of majority of the ulama since then YES.

Ideally there shouldn't be a difference. Because shouldn't not be able to guide others if they are not guided themselves. Learning religious laws (fiqh) doesn't make you guided. Even if one knows all the information in the world. It can not give him iman.
I am not implying that all so called sufi masters are on truth because there are quite alot of deviants amongst them who have deviated from the truth.

There are also scholars who are rightly guided but may not be identified as Sufis.

The matter is not simple and clear. Allah (swt) knows best who is on the truth.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Even if one knows all the information in the world. It can not give him iman.

So gaining or obtaining imaan depends on a Sufi shaykh which is distinct from a scholar of Shariah.

You said yourself that you agree that inward purification is legislated.

Here you are contradicting yourself by saying:

Learning religious laws (fiqh) doesn't make you guided

So a person who studies the legislated worship is not guided?

There are also scholars who are rightly guided but may not be identified as Sufis.

If sufism gives you iman as you have suggested here, and if you say that there is guidance outside sufism, then aren't you confused?

You just have a vague and ideal picture of what Sufism is yet you don't know for sure what you are talking about.

The matter is not simple and clear. Allah (swt) knows best who is on the truth.

So a person can study shariah all his life, obey all of ALlahs commands, and yet he might not be upon the truth as the truth is abstract, obscure and intangible?

It seems you have more in common with Osho than you may think.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Islam is a very simple and straightforward religion:

Consider yourself as a person lost in an ocean who is about to drown.

Shariah is a lifboat that will save you from drowining. But the lifeboat depends on a compass, the compass is your intention.

If your intention is pure, and if your destination, your safehaven is with Allah, then the lifeboat will benefit you.

If your intention in is to reach some place other, than the lifeboat won't benefit you.

[badmash_khel]

So gaining or obtaining imaan depends on a Sufi shaykh

Iman is a gift from Allah (swt) which he bestows upon on whom he wills. The ones most worthy of it. Mohmmad (saw)'s uncle Abu Talib did not embrace Islam even though he had the best guide available i.e Mohmmad (saw). True Shaykhs can help us by removing the obstacles (pride, hate, anger, envy) which get in the way of being worthy of having iman but iman is given by Allah (swt). If a person not worthy of Iman, then no Shaykh can help him. Abu Talib (the uncle of the prophet (saw)) died a kafir even though he had the best teacher available.

which is distinct from a scholar of Shariah.

i never said this. Ideally a scholar of shariah should be a guided person themselves before guiding others.

You said yourself that you agree that inward purification is legislated.

Here you are contradicting yourself by saying:

So a person who studies the legislated worship is not guided?

Does reading science books by yourself make you a doctor?

Shariah is the divine law. The true undrestanding of Sharia and teaching it is quite different matter.

Even non muslims read the Quran, does it mean they are guided? Reading something and knowing something as the truth within you is quite different thing. Reading and undrestanding superficialy is the quality of the mind which can lead to pride. While knowing something and affirming it internally is the quality of heart.

If sufism gives you iman as you have suggested here, and if you say that there is guidance outside sufism, then aren't you confused?

You just have a vague and ideal picture of what Sufism is yet you don't know for sure what you are talking about.

AS I said earlier Sufism can't give you iman. no one can give you iman except Allah (Swt). Sufism is just a method dervied from Quran and Sunnah to remove obstacles which prevents one from being worthy of the gift of iman.

There are other methods which might not be termed sufism but can do the same job if they are based on the teachings of Quran and sunnah.

So a person can study shariah all his life, obey all of ALlahs commands, and yet he might not be upon the truth as the truth is abstract, obscure and intangible?

Depends on the person's intentions which only Allah (swt) knows. That's why we should never judge each others true intentions. He might obey Allah (swt)'s commands for fame among the ummah or to feed his ego so others can call him the pious one and so on. Other might be self less and obey only for the sake of Allah (swt).

Acts alone without proper faith is not Islam. True belief compels one to act upon the commands of Allah (Swt) for his sake.

There many non muslim scholars who have studied fiqh and also follow the commands of Allah (swt) such as loving the neighbour, being good to parents etc. That still doesn't mean they have iman.

[badmash_khel]

Islam is a very simple and straightforward religion:

Consider yourself as a person lost in an ocean who is about to drown.

Shariah is a lifboat that will save you from drowining. But the lifeboat depends on a compass, the compass is your intention.

If your intention is pure, and if your destination, your safehaven is with Allah, then the lifeboat will benefit you.

If your intention in is to reach some place other, than the lifeboat won't benefit you.

Nice anology. That's a simple way of putting it.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Iman is a gift from Allah (swt) which he bestows upon on whom he wills.

If Imaan is a gift from Allah, how is it then that the obstacles are removed by other than Allah?

True Shaykhs can help us by removing the obstacles (pride, hate, anger, envy) which get in the way of being worthy of having iman but iman is given by Allah (swt).

So the work of Allah depends on sufi shaykhs?

If a person not worthy of Iman, then no Shaykh can help him. Abu Talib (the uncle of the prophet (saw)) died a kafir even though he had the best teacher available.

What makes one worthy of imaan?

i never said this. Ideally a scholar of shariah should be a guided person themselves before guiding others.

But your wording did suggest so.

Does reading science books by yourself make you a doctor?

No, but you are implying that studying fiqh is just reading books which is false. Nobody can study fiqh without a teacher. Fiqh is application of worship. Worship is purification of the nafs. Therefore, fiqh is the same as purification of the nafs.

Shariah is the divine law. The true undrestanding of Sharia and teaching it is quite different matter.

How is divine law seperated from its true understanding?

You are basically saying that Allah revealed his law, but the understanding of the revelation was not revealed. Therefore we need another person.

Even non muslims read the Quran, does it mean they are guided? Reading something and knowing something as the truth within you is quite different thing. Reading and undrestanding superficialy is the quality of the mind which can lead to pride. While knowing something and affirming it internally is the quality of heart.

You are basically debating an imaginary argument. I never said nor suggested that merely reading book suffices.

Talk to me directly. Don't reproduce your pre-determined position regarding matters not present in this current discussion.

AS I said earlier Sufism can't give you iman.

No. Actually you said something that can be logically deduced to: sufism gives you imaan.

no one can give you iman except Allah (Swt). Sufism is just a method dervied from Quran and Sunnah to remove obstacles which prevents one from being worthy of the gift of iman.

If it is derived from Qur'an and Sunnah,

1 - who did the deriving?

2 - and what is the legal ruling within Shariah to have a discipline called Sufism?

There are other methods which might not be termed sufism but can do the same job if they are based on the teachings of Quran and sunnah.

Define sufism in its strict definition by using clear evidences from Qur'an and Sunnah.

Also define other methods that can do the same job using clear evidences from Qur'an and Sunnah.

Your vague suggestions and abstract description is of no use to this debate. Give me something tangible to build on.

Depends on the person's intentions which only Allah (swt) knows. That's why we should never judge each others true intentions. He might obey Allah (swt)'s commands for fame among the ummah or to feed his ego so others can call him the pious one and so on. Other might be self less and obey only for the sake of Allah (swt).

I agree. But you are digressing from your initial claim.

Acts alone without proper faith is not Islam. True belief compels one to act upon the commands of Allah (Swt) for his sake.

Agreed.

There many non muslim scholars who have studied fiqh and also follow the commands of Allah (swt) such as loving the neighbour, being good to parents etc. That still doesn't mean they have iman.

Irrelevant to this discussion.