cast system in India a crime against humanity

[KhalsaWarrior]

Khalsa,
Many scolars disagree on when and how the caste system was introduced to India. While you are assuming that it was solidified and entrenched during the vedic period. Over time there has been many challenges to the caste system and because of those challenges, it has evolved. you cant beleive it is the same today as it was 2500 years ago during the vedic period. Today, especially in the big cities, it has been slowly dwindling.

While you are right that lack of a unified political entity didnt exist. there is more to it than that. It seemed to me that the population just accepted the foreign rule without question.

I dont know how you equate the caste system with people not resisting foreign invasions and becoming subservient. Thats weird logic. There was one caste, the Kshatriyas especially entrusted with the objective of warfare.

And how did you judge that people didn't resist? Their kings and rulers were of course defeated by these foreign invaders.

[KhalsaWarrior]

Khalsa,
are you saying that the cast system did not become rigid during british rule? that doesnt make sence

Why would it become anymore rigid then what it already was? Please elaborate.

[khushal]

Why would it become anymore rigid then what it already was? Please elaborate.

Well this is in Wikipedia, it makes more sense than what you are saying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India

The fluidity of the caste system was affected by the arrival of the British. Prior to that, the relative ranking of castes differed from one place to another.[34] The castes did not constitute a rigid description of the occupation or the social status of a group. The British attempted to equate the Indian caste system to their own class system, viewing caste as an indicator of occupation, social standing, and intellectual ability.[18] During the initial days of the British East India Company's rule, caste differences and customs were accepted, if not encouraged,[35] but the British law courts disagreed with the discrimination against the lower castes. However, British policies of divide and rule as well as enumeration of the population into rigid categories during the 10 year census contributed towards the hardening of caste identities.[36]

[khushal]

I dont know how you equate the caste system with people not resisting foreign invasions and becoming subservient. Thats weird logic. There was one caste, the Kshatriyas especially entrusted with the objective of warfare.

And how did you judge that people didn't resist? Their kings and rulers were of course defeated by these foreign invaders.

Weird logic?
Khalsa, the caste system convinces the masses to just accept the conditions that they are born into, that they shouldnt fight for something better, for an improvement. The caste system over thousands of years has changed the mentality of the people of India, they lost passion to resist occupation.
Those resistence that you speak of werent passionate, they were very weak and the kings that resisted, they only resisted for their own interests, the people never fought the invaders with passion for themselves or for their kings.
The British considered India their Biggest Asset, and they took it very easily with hardly any resistence and they used the caste system to their advantage.

You have to agree that sometimes kings or leaders resist foreign invaders is because their people(public opinion) are telling them to resist even though they themselves(kings) think it would be better to surrender.

[KhalsaWarrior]

Well this is in Wikileaks, it makes more sense than what you are saying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India

The fluidity of the caste system was affected by the arrival of the British. Prior to that, the relative ranking of castes differed from one place to another.[34] The castes did not constitute a rigid description of the occupation or the social status of a group. The British attempted to equate the Indian caste system to their own class system, viewing caste as an indicator of occupation, social standing, and intellectual ability.[18] During the initial days of the British East India Company's rule, caste differences and customs were accepted, if not encouraged,[35] but the British law courts disagreed with the discrimination against the lower castes. However, British policies of divide and rule as well as enumeration of the population into rigid categories during the 10 year census contributed towards the hardening of caste identities.[36]

Thanks Kushal. I now understand what you are trying to say.

And I dont really agree with whoever wrote that bit about the caste system. The British might have seen similarities with their own class system but that wouldn't have necessarily translated into the caste system getting any worse under their rule. The piece above is purely a speculation and is not backed by any specific actions that the British took to make things worse.

On the other hand, I would say the reverse seems more plausible. I would say that the British might have actually inadvertently helped reduce the influence of the caste system by promoting the spread of western education amongst the Indians. Ishwar Chand Vidyasagar and Raja Ram Mohun Roy were 19th century Bengali intellectuals and social reformers who educated in western standards and familiar with ideals of equality. They were both high-caste Hindu Brahmins but worked all their lives to remove social evils like the caste system. I am sure even you'd agree that education helps remove backward practices like the caste system.

[faye]

the belief system of karma also fits with that scenario, of not being able to create change from position one is born into.

[khushal]

Thanks Kushal. I now understand what you are trying to say.

And I dont really agree with whoever wrote that bit about the caste system. The British might have seen similarities with their own class system but that wouldn't have necessarily translated into the caste system getting any worse under their rule. The piece above is purely a speculation and is not backed by any specific actions that the British took to make things worse.

On the other hand, I would say the reverse seems more plausible. I would say that the British might have actually inadvertently helped reduce the influence of the caste system by promoting the spread of western education amongst the Indians. Ishwar Chand Vidyasagar and Raja Ram Mohun Roy were 19th century Bengali intellectuals and social reformers who educated in western standards and familiar with ideals of equality. They were both high-caste Hindu Brahmins but worked all their lives to remove social evils like the caste system. I am sure even you'd agree that education helps remove backward practices like the caste system.

I would agree that education will empower the individual to improve him/herself but throughout history India has had a good educational system, has had many intellectuals and its civilizations have contributed much to humanity.
But I dont think it was in the Brits interest to reduce the influence of the caste system because for them it was a system of control and it actually would reduce uprisings even though it was against their law. There were many learned people throughout Indias history that have challenged the caste system. Ghandi called the untouchables "Harijans" children of god.

But I beleive in modern times the main thing that has made progress against the caste sytem is modern socialism and modern capitalism. The introduction of Industry has had more impact on the influence of the caste system than anything else.

[KhalsaWarrior]

I would agree that education will empower the individual to improve him/herself but throughout history India has had a good educational system, has had many intellectuals and its civilizations have contributed much to humanity.
But I dont think it was in the Brits interest to reduce the influence of the caste system because for them it was a system of control and it actually would reduce uprisings even though it was against their law.

Of course it wasn't. I agree with you. Thast why I said inadvertently. The Brits were just trying to create a class of Indians educated in western beliefs that could help them run the country. That this familiarity with western thoughts also led to people realizing that the caste system was a despicable practice and a curse to the Indian society and subsequently led to a rise in national consciousness, was just a byproduct of the British efforts to create a servile class of Indians for their benefits.

I will talk more about national consciousness in my next post.

[khushal]

i edited my last statement and added this if you missed it.

But I beleive in modern times the main thing that has made progress against the caste sytem is modern socialism and modern capitalism. The introduction of Industry has had more impact on the influence of the caste system than anything else.

[KhalsaWarrior]

Weird logic?
Khalsa, the caste system convinces the masses to just accept the conditions that they are born into, that they shouldnt fight for something better, for an improvement. The caste system over thousands of years has changed the mentality of the people of India, they lost passion to resist occupation.
Those resistence that you speak of werent passionate, they were very weak and the kings that resisted, they only resisted for their own interests, the people never fought the invaders with passion for themselves or for their kings.

Kushal a lack of national consciousness was the main reason. There was no sense of a united India, except under periods of rule under the Mauyas, Guptas, Kushanas and the Mughals. At all other times India was just a collection of a number of independent states. They of course followed a similar set of cultural values but didn't identify with one political entity.

And its wrong to say that caste system bred servility that facilitated not resisting invaders. The caste system doesnt say you cant earn more money than you currently do or you cant be richer. Many times traders, who are by rank the 3rd varna could be richer than kshatriyas who were the 2nd ranked varna.

What it did facilitate was the assimilation of immigrants into the system. Many times foreign/immigrant tribes were assimilated as Kshatriyas due to their warrior like nature. The Jatts are one such example. Jatts arrived late in the sub-con and some experts maintain that they were prescribed a Kshatriya varna while other say they were Vaishya as they were mainly agriculturists.

The British considered India their Biggest Asset, and they took it very easily with hardly any resistence and they used the caste system to their advantage.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I havent come across any proactive action by the Brits that promoted the caste system. In all probability, they saw the caste-system as deep rooted and inherent to Hinduism and thought best not to tinker with it, so as to not to offend the people of the dominant religion.

You have to agree that sometimes kings or leaders resist foreign invaders is because their people(public opinion) are telling them to resist even though they themselves(kings) think it would be better to surrender.

I believe that every ruler will try and protect his kingdom. In the case of caste system, it actually designated people to fight, the Kshatriyas as a high-caste.

Let me also state that one should not see my posts as a defence of the caste-system and the negative influence it had on Indian society. It restricted power and resources in a few while other lived in poverty. I just differ in my opinion of the role of caste-system wrt invasions.

[KhalsaWarrior]

i edited my last statement and added this if you missed it.

But I beleive in modern times the main thing that has made progress against the caste sytem is modern socialism and modern capitalism. The introduction of Industry has had more impact on the influence of the caste system than anything else.

Definitely. Capitalism and the industrial revolution (though it arrived after India gained independence) had a much profound impact than anything else in the past 3000 years.

A businessman wants to sell his wares and doesn't care if the buyer is low-caste or high-caste. Similarly an industrialist when trying to recruit labor, wants the cheapest and the most skilled available and doesn't care about the caste of the person.

Govt. policy has also helped. A low-caste person (I personally know of one) is able to go to the best institution (at subsidized fees) and get employed in a top IT company.

[graveyardofempires]

As an Indian I can safely say that the Caste system, in its current form isn't holding back India from progressing as a developed nation. Bad governance and political opportunism are much greater stumbling blocks than caste system. Being a lower caste isn't a factor in their lack of opportunities and access to resources. Poverty is. A high caste poor has the same (I would even say less) opportunities as a lower caste poor. All govt. institutions - educational and professional have upto 30% reservation for lower castes. These include govt owned or run colleges, departments, banks, industries etc.

Caste system, in most cases, manifests itself like a community divide thing. Much like Pashtuns differentiate themselves from Tajiks, Hazaras, Uzbeks etc. It doesnt stop you doing business with them, cohabiting the same workplace as them or partying co-mingling with them. Just that when it comes to marital relations, people tend to marry within their own caste just like one would do in case of a community.

I would also agree that some areas in the East that are undeveloped still practice the worst form of caste system - untouchability, but that is rare and fast on the wane.

Indian caste system cannot be compared with a little Afghan disunity,we dont really differentiate ourselves from our other Afghan brethern ,it has been 30 years of war which has caused this friction.In Afghanistan all these different ethnicities actually preserved their culture folklore and language.

In India this caste system has been around for thousands of years and people from lower castes (majority) have been treated like slaves(maybe seculer india has changed it a bit).
according to hindu ideology this is seen as devine law that the lower caste be at the service of higher casts.

[khushal]

This national consciousness you are talking about is a modern invention. It might be helpfull but it is not necessary for resistence. What is necessary is a beleif that when the fighting is over, you are treated as equal as everyone else. If I am living in a society with a caste system and I am in the lower caste, why would I fight if I dont have the oppertunity to be equal to the people in the higher caste. There would be no motivation for me to risk my life if I or my family cant be regarded as equal to ones Im fighting for.

This is why the ANA soldiers in afghanistan dont fight. Why should they fight for corrupt leaders that are only there to fill their pockets and swiss bank accounts. their is no motivation.

[faye]

that happened here in australia with the aboriginals. they volunteered to go off to war with the whities and were treated pretty good in the army but when they got back they were restricted from going certain places and doing certain things because of their race/colour. some of them didn't get pensions or acnowledged in govt registries.

[KhalsaWarrior]

Indian caste system cannot be compared with a little Afghan disunity,we dont really differentiate ourselves from our other Afghan brethern ,it has been 30 years of war which has caused this friction.In Afghanistan all these different ethnicities actually preserved their culture folklore and language.

In India this caste system has been around for thousands of years and people from lower castes (majority) have been treated like slaves(maybe seculer india has changed it a bit).
according to hindu ideology this is seen as devine law that the lower caste be at the service of higher casts.

GoE, you missed a bit of context there in my post. I was talking about the caste-system in its current form in India, not the way it was for more than 2000 years. In its current form its very much similar to the way different ethnic, linguistic communities co-exist in a nation. Just that in this case, the caste is the differentiating factor and not the ethnicity or language.

And you are right, caste system previously was akin to slavery. Lower castes were treated horribly, often forced to live in their own quarters and condemned to the same occupation for generations without a recourse to moving up in the social chain.