Medical Thread

[darwezkhail]

Oh you were talking about entry test. Entry test cover F.SC subjects so it is in biology ,chemistry and physics. But there is no entry test for foriegn students.
I have never applied for agha khan so i dont know about their admission procedure. Make phone call to them and ask details from them.

But they didn't indicate the fact that the entry test is not required of foreign students on their website. Are you sure of that? So how do I apply? Can someone help me..

[Michin Khel]

Lol websites of governament institutes are never upto date and complete, clerics do so to increase their importance (that is you have to directly ask them).
I would ask about the procedure from them , then i would inform you.

[darwezkhail]

Lol websites of governament institutes are never upto date and complete, clerics do so to increase their importance (that is you have to directly ask them).
I would ask about the procedure from them , then i would inform you.

I would really appreciate that Luffy.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Barakzai wrora, thank you so much for this advice.

RCSI is also my first choice but I would like to have a backup. Their interviews begin in mid January and I was asked to travel there for one. I talked to my dad about it and he disagreed and had me ask them if a phone interview was possible instead, which they agreed to. They said they'd contact me for a phone interview in February which I'm cool with. You still didn't indicate what this signifies brother. I'm new to all this.

Will you please help me with the admissions process for Aga Khan because it seems a little confusing. One problem I have with schools taught by non-native English speakers is the language barrier. I don't want to constantly have to mentally correct grammar mistakes or decipher the intended meaning of something that was improperly written. That's why I opted for the European school which is primarily taught by Europeans who speak English as their native tongue.

I'll still apply to Pakistan though. Some people mentioned they pay as little as $200 a year? Which ones are those? Thanks everyone..

I can only comment on what the interview process means here in the states as I have no experience with the institutions in question. The interviews here can mean a few things. More often than not it means you are a viable candidate for them. If you have some connection to the institution through relatives/friends it may be a courtesy interview and you cannot depend on that place. You usually will know your own standing based on your credentials that you apply with and how you obtained the interview. You also have to understand that when you interview here in the States, if it is at a local state school, they are interviewing people from all over the state and know that they may not be able to recruit all the candidates they want. So they interview many viable candidates in order to be able to fill their spots. In general though, they try not to waste their time and the applicants time if the applicant stands little to no chance of getting in.

The interview process itself is crucial though. Here within the states, if I really wanted to attend a school, I would never do a phone based interview. A large part of medicine is the impression you make. They want to be able to witness your communication style and warmth as a person. It is like the televised debates between two candidates that occurs here in the states. They are not just judging you based on your merit... that was what got you the interview in the first place. Now they want to make sure that you can look and act the part of a doctor. You have to generally present yourself in a reasonably approachable yet conservative style (Black or Navy Dark Blue Suit and a nice tie etc). You have to prepare for these interviews as well in your own way. A good strategy can mean you rule the roost during the inteview process.

From what I understand, the Canadians that go to Ireland and the other students that go to the Caribbean have to interview really only as a formality. So I have no idea how this school works as it is not in the mainland US. However, I do know folks from the UK who were originally Canadians and Americans and they told me that the interviews were generally the formality and that the schools generally know that they will be making a profit off these foreign students.

So the answer to your question is hard one brother because as I said, I am trying to understand what your limiting factors are. Is it that you are fairly religious and refuse to take the loans required for the American degree? Is it that you worry it will be an economic strain on the family? Is it that you feel your choices are limited? None of these are shameful things at all. I think I can guide you a little better if you give me an idea of your US citizenship status and what is so urgently taking you away from the US?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

the american system seems so long winded and complex... the british one is far more easier... enter at 18 come out at 23 (providing u pass all ur exams and went straight after A level)

I partially disagree because in the US system you are more often than not able to become a full attending by the time you are 29 years old in general medicine or 30 in general surgery. From what my relatives in Ireland tell me the initial course to completion of the MBBS/MD equivalent occurs earlier at 23, but the training phase/residency and fellowship equivalent end up placing you at the attending position a little later than the American grad. what I mean by this is that a fresh new residency graduate can directly grab an assistant/associate professorship and attend on the wards straight out of residency. The fellowship adds time but it adds only about 3 years.

One Irish fellow who was visiting the hospital I used to be at for medical school told me that you are nearly gray haired when you reach the specialist attending level.

For the rest of you viewers, an "attending" physician means an physician that has completed all his training and now can practice independently. A resident physican is a physician in training. An intern is the first year resident. A "fellow" physician is in some way an attending because he has finished his residency but he is now specializing so he is in a fellowship. He can become an attending in his specialized field after his fellowship. As an example, an attending that graduated his general medicine residency or general surgery cannot attend on the endocrinology, cardiology, ICU wards, or Cardiovascular Surgery Wards but an attending that went on to complete fellowships in these specialities can.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Dreamer can you practice in the USA?

Nearly all foreig grads can practice here, but as Dreamer noted they have to pass all 3 steps and then apply to residency and finish it to practice here. For the grads coming in from Europe (predominantly the UK), they have a better shot at landing a reasonable US residency that can give them a shot at specialization at some State Universities (University of Florida, University of Indiana, etc). However, to enter say Yale, Harvard, Univ of Chicago, Stanford, etc they have to spend a year of two in the research lab making the right connections. Those spots are generally reserved for US grads unless the European grad is arriving with some top notch research from Cambridge or Oxford.

All foreign grads also have to satisfy the US security demands in regard to Visa status. Doctors generally find the system very navigatable and find a way to stay where without any hitches. Applicants throughout the world generally find our system the most welcoming because anyone like Dreamer or Luffy can come here and become an attending physician. Sometimes there is a glass cieling when it comes to competitive fellowships and specialties.

[darwezkhail]

I can only comment on what the interview process means here in the states as I have no experience with the institutions in question. The interviews here can mean a few things. More often than not it means you are a viable candidate for them. If you have some connection to the institution through relatives/friends it may be a courtesy interview and you cannot depend on that place. You usually will know your own standing based on your credentials that you apply with and how you obtained the interview. You also have to understand that when you interview here in the States, if it is at a local state school, they are interviewing people from all over the state and know that they may not be able to recruit all the candidates they want. So they interview many viable candidates in order to be able to fill their spots. In general though, they try not to waste their time and the applicants time if the applicant stands little to no chance of getting in.

The interview process itself is crucial though. Here within the states, if I really wanted to attend a school, I would never do a phone based interview. A large part of medicine is the impression you make. They want to be able to witness your communication style and warmth as a person. It is like the televised debates between two candidates that occurs here in the states. They are not just judging you based on your merit... that was what got you the interview in the first place. Now they want to make sure that you can look and act the part of a doctor. You have to generally present yourself in a reasonably approachable yet conservative style (Black or Navy Dark Blue Suit and a nice tie etc). You have to prepare for these interviews as well in your own way. A good strategy can mean you rule the roost during the inteview process.

From what I understand, the Canadians that go to Ireland and the other students that go to the Caribbean have to interview really only as a formality. So I have no idea how this school works as it is not in the mainland US. However, I do know folks from the UK who were originally Canadians and Americans and they told me that the interviews were generally the formality and that the schools generally know that they will be making a profit off these foreign students.

So the answer to your question is hard one brother because as I said, I am trying to understand what your limiting factors are. Is it that you are fairly religious and refuse to take the loans required for the American degree? Is it that you worry it will be an economic strain on the family? Is it that you feel your choices are limited? None of these are shameful things at all. I think I can guide you a little better if you give me an idea of your US citizenship status and what is so urgently taking you away from the US?

Brother I do not have any family or friend connections with them, lol. I think my transcript might have stood out to them. With the grades I have, I could get into an American medical school if the criteria was based on just grades alone. But its mainly the thousands of hours of extracurricular work which I am not looking very forward to neither am I looking forward to those meaningless minute details which they additionally require to create an arbitrary and worthless system. I firmly believe that average American doctors are not only some of the most incompetent but probably the most corrupt, money-seeking, in-compassionate there are. The only thing that sets them apart is advancement in technology. When my father came here to the States in the 80's haplessly suffering from Malaria, he had literally gone to 3 doctors without any of them being of any help. Finally he went to an American-Iranian doctor who, in essence, saved his life. Even Americans themselves complain of the deteriorating and failed system in the West.

Apart from that, in all honesty, and most importantly I am fed up with America and Americans altogether. I want to leave this country and way of life to them because I do not belong here. Growing up, I never even bothered trying either. I have no emotional attachment to this country and rather I find it, its way of life and populace quite repugnant and loathsome in their obsessive materialism and lack of touch with the true purpose of life and its inherent spiritual implications. I don't feel I have the true freedom to practice Allah's religion, in its entirety, here. My future is going to be in a lone Afghan village, living no better of a life than those around me. So in conclusion, brother, these are all my limiting factors. Lol..

Now with my biography made known, I am interested in applying to some Pakistani schools in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa on top of RCSI. The former would offer the advantage of being able to pay out of pocket. How nice that would be. Insha Allah I will call them later tonight. Jazakallaho Khairan my dear brother for your help and advice.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Brother I do not have any family or friend connections with them, lol. I think my transcript might have stood out to them. With the grades I have, I could get into an American medical school if the criteria was based on just grades alone. But its mainly the thousands of hours of extracurricular work which I am not looking very forward to neither am I looking forward to those meaningless minute details which they additionally require to create an arbitrary and worthless system. I firmly believe that average American doctors are not only some of the most incompetent but probably the most corrupt, money-seeking, in-compassionate there are. The only thing that sets them apart is advancement in technology. When my father came here to the States in the 80's haplessly suffering from Malaria, he had literally gone to 3 doctors without any of them being of any help. Finally he went to an American-Iranian doctor who, in essence, saved his life. Even Americans themselves complain of the deteriorating and failed system in the West.

Apart from that, in all honesty, and most importantly I am fed up with America and Americans altogether. I want to leave this country and way of life to them because I do not belong here. Growing up, I never even bothered trying either. I have no emotional attachment to this country and rather I find it, its way of life and populace quite repugnant and loathsome in their obsessive materialism and lack of touch with the true purpose of life and its inherent spiritual implications. I don't feel I have the true freedom to practice Allah's religion, in its entirety, here. My future is going to be in a lone Afghan village, living no better of a life than those around me. So in conclusion, brother, these are all my limiting factors. Lol..

Now with my biography made known, I am interested in applying to some Pakistani schools in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa on top of RCSI. The former would offer the advantage of being able to pay out of pocket. How nice that would be. Insha Allah I will call them later tonight. Jazakallaho Khairan my dear brother for your help and advice.

Wrorre,

You are correct that many American doctors are less familiar with such tropical diseases like Malaria that the Iranian would be more likely to see epidemiologically based on where he was raised and trained. In the States, illnesses like Malaria, Chagas, and even TB are relatively rare. In fact when a case pops up its a big deal. However, we hope to adjust this to our changing world that has its new immigration trends, and to educate our colleagues on tropical medicine as many residencies across the states are now doing.

You are also correct that many doctors abroad are so very skilled and have my utmost respect. However, Allah has given you a huge blessing to be able to take some of this technology and do as the Bani Israel did and transmit it to your people. I would say that a part of that shadowing experience is what prepares you for the rigors of the wards here and abroad. Medicine is more than just a set of books... a doctor has to learn to be a diplomat, a businessman, and a scientist all in one. Exposure to life here and abroad can build these qualities.

However, you are fixed on your goal and desires and I wish you only the best in your work. If you choose to come back I will put you in touch one day with some fine gentleman who are from our areas and will guide your return.

Since you appear to want to go to Pakistan as a back up and not to Nangrahar or Kabul, I would say your school choices should then be Aga Khan, Khybar, King Edwards, and Abbatabod in possibly that order. Luffy saib and others would know more than I. But I can tell you that from the residents I meet that they tend to hail from Aga Khan and Khybar more than other centers in the encounters that I have had. There are also many King Edwards folks around in the residencies.

[Laila]

Doctor Sahib,

I am going back to Afghanistan for 6 months in 3 years. Near Nangarhar Univeristy, there is a hospital that my father used to work in. A close friend of my fathers, an OB/GYN, is willing to let me work with her. What do you think of it for exposure and experience, considering its an underserved country? in respect to volunteer work prior to medical school or PA school.

[darwezkhail]

Wrorre,

You are correct that many American doctors are less familiar with such tropical diseases like Malaria that the Iranian would be more likely to see epidemiologically based on where he was raised and trained. In the States, illnesses like Malaria, Chagas, and even TB are relatively rare. In fact when a case pops up its a big deal. However, we hope to adjust this to our changing world that has its new immigration trends, and to educate our colleagues on tropical medicine as many residencies across the states are now doing.

You are also correct that many doctors abroad are so very skilled and have my utmost respect. However, Allah has given you a huge blessing to be able to take some of this technology and do as the Bani Israel did and transmit it to your people. I would say that a part of that shadowing experience is what prepares you for the rigors of the wards here and abroad. Medicine is more than just a set of books... a doctor has to learn to be a diplomat, a businessman, and a scientist all in one. Exposure to life here and abroad can build these qualities.

However, you are fixed on your goal and desires and I wish you only the best in your work. If you choose to come back I will put you in touch one day with some fine gentleman who are from our areas and will guide your return.

Since you appear to want to go to Pakistan as a back up and not to Nangrahar or Kabul, I would say your school choices should then be Aga Khan, Khybar, King Edwards, and Abbatabod in possibly that order. Luffy saib and others would know more than I. But I can tell you that from the residents I meet that they tend to hail from Aga Khan and Khybar more than other centers in the encounters that I have had. There are also many King Edwards folks around in the residencies.

I was of the opinion that the Afghan schools may be under-equipped and therefore slightly inferior. Am I right in making that judgement? Thanks wrora.

[darwezkhail]

^ Sure brother. No pressures.

The numbers listed on the various websites for KMU colleges are so old that they do not even work. Lol. This is weird.

Luffy, you are my last hope. I hope you provide me some help.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Doctor Sahib,

I am going back to Afghanistan for 6 months in 3 years. Near Nangarhar Univeristy, there is a hospital that my father used to work in. A close friend of my fathers, an OB/GYN, is willing to let me work with her. What do you think of it for exposure and experience, considering its an underserved country? in respect to volunteer work prior to medical school or PA school.

Laila, Its absolutely a great idea for both your personal ambition of applying and for spiritual reasons. First of all, do it for learning and for helping people out and God will put barakah in it. Make that your niyaat and you will prosper either way. It will also give you a personal goal and ambition to work toward. Then, when you get in, what you will seek to achieve will be for the selfless benefit of others, especially the most downtrodden of our people. You will gain fuel to work through the ensuing tough years of training with the inspiration that you are doing this for the benefit of the world and not for personal gain.

In regard to the practical aspect and implications of your work, it gives you some good stuff to write about in your personal statement. Get some good pictures while you are there. For my interviews, I had a portfolio I had put together with my research work and I supplemented that with some articles in the news about the work I was conducting using tribal connections to build links between Afghan and American Universities back in the earlier part of the last decade.


You have to look at your interview and application like a business portfolio in a way. When you approach it with this unique mindset and prepare the way a politician or a business man or a lawyer does his brief you can blow them out of the water. Remember, you want to put interesting things like this on your AMCAS application and also reflect on it in your personal statement. Then you control the terrain of the interview because they will want to discuss this with you. You pull them onto your ground and seize the initiative in the interview. What is more to your benefit is that you provide a view to the Americans from the perspective of an Afghan girl. We can talk more about this if you would like.

Look at the application and the interview like a battle that you want to control the tempo of. Eventually you develop a stump speech in a way. More often than not they are blown away.

I was telling my wife to do the same thing recently when she was in Pashtunkhwa. She is planning on applying to professional schooling. I sent her to the camps on the border and she also visited some of the Khybar run clinics in the Wana area. It was an amazing experience and she has a lot to talk about now. She saw some appalling oncological (cancer) cases and played a good part in the team effort a local NGO was putting in to couple American/European trained doctors to help those local grads care for the tribal Pashtoons.

Also Laila, if that OB.Gyn in Afghanistan has American accreditation then consider getting a recommendation from them, especially if they have academic affiliations. Try to define a role there for yourself and be actively involved.

I will post more later after work. Back to the grind. Tell me if this was helpful. If you have specific questions on what I wrote above then write back. I will post mroe after work to answer the other questions.

[Zarmeena]

salamz.
i am a new member and I live in Connecticut.. I was googling "Pashtun medical" and I found this thread as the 1st result so I read all 18 pages and i am very happy and glad to be here. so thank you for your service.

i have a few questions but i will ask one at a time.

i am currently in college and my parents dont want me to take a loan since it requires interest and i dont think i am bright enough for a scholarship.nor am i rich. how do i attend med school? its my life long dream to be a doctor.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

salamz.
i am a new member and I live in Connecticut.. I was googling "Pashtun medical" and I found this thread as the 1st result so I read all 18 pages and i am very happy and glad to be here. so thank you for your service.

i have a few questions but i will ask one at a time.

i am currently in college and my parents dont want me to take a loan since it requires interest and i dont think i am bright enough for a scholarship.nor am i rich. how do i attend med school? its my life long dream to be a doctor.

Zarmeena,

Wa salam wa rahmatullah. I am very glad you have this drive. I live in southern Connecticut. Where do you hail from back home (Qandahar, peshawar, Jalalabad, Quetta?)? You are the exact reason I started this thread. My goal is to help you and to find ways to make this work. Are you in high school? Are you in college? It appears that your family is religious. Are you a male/female? Sorry, I know these are somewhat personal questions and you can always answer them through the private messaging as well, but I figure I can reach more people this way as they may come across the answer and think: I fit this profile and this may work for me as well.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Dear Zarmeena,

There are a few steps you need to take. First, you are not at the fixed end point yet where you have to not follow your dream. If you say to yourself “well, it looks as if 5 years or so from now I won’t have the money to go to medical school, and my parents won’t me take interest loans, so the dream is over”; then you end up psyching yourself out.

I wish I had more info about you so I could hone my answer, but I will assume you are still in the high school phase based only on the wording of your question. You might very well be in college already.
* I will address high school level efforts in another post. *

1) Go to school at a university. It does not matter if it is University of Connecticut, NYU, University of Cincinnati, Johns Hopkins, etc. Sure some colleges like Harvard and YaleUniversities will give you a leg up, but any university will set the stage for your efforts. Usually, this part of your career is manageable financially. It does not even matter if it is a local liberal arts school like Quinnipiac, Bryn Mawr, or wherever. Find out if they put at least some folks into some medical school somewhere. Avoid community college unless it is a financial issue and a bridge to college/university. Many schools understand that the latter is necessary for those with financial difficulties to bridge them over to a university eventually. I have a friend who is in neurosurgery. He and I attended medical school together. First, he was with the US army, then he was sweeping floors as a janitor, then he went to community college, and he worked his way up into a university. He applied to medical school and his accomplishments and story were enough to seal the deal.

2) Read through some of my prior posts. There are two things you are REQUIRED to do (prerequisite courses, MCAT) and a few things that are basically requirements, but they just do not call them that (extracurricular stuff). The most helpful things to do for the extracurricular stuff long term is basic science research with a lab group that has some link to medical oriented research. As a student in need, you can utilize your federal work study funds for this. For example, if you are a Computer Engineering/Programming major, get involved in radiological/imaging sciences research; if you are a basic biology major get involved in cellular therapy research or other pursuits that are your fancy. **I am going to do another completely separate post on how to acquire research projects for the American college/high school student and for the foreign medical grad.** If you are a liberal arts major like a sociology degree seeker and want to stay away from the bench side sciences, you can involve yourself in studies looking at, for example, contraceptive practices in third world countries like Afghanistan (giving you a way to relate your research to your background and utilize this very powerfully for your interview).

3) *Once you show your merit with steps 1 and 2 above, doors will open up, I promise. For example, the Cleveland Clinic, one of the world’s top 3 hospitals has a medical school now with FULL tuition paid for its students. The caveat is that you devote an extra year to research as it is a five year program. However, I think that a year doing some prestigious research work is well worth it. In fact, many fellowship level physicians opt to do this just to make themselves more lucrative to academia. There are other schools like Mayo that may follow suit. If you work extremely hard my friend, you can make it. Also, if you are smart enough to get into medical school, which Masha-Allah you are, you just need to search out that part of you that is your drive and harness it. Learn to love studying your books. Take them with you everywhere you go. You are a Pashtoon my friend; look at this as your own personal struggle to succeed and you will do so with Allah’s help. Also, many medical schools have internal scholarships that are competitive, but that pay for nearly full years worth of medical schooling. We had a local scholarship covered by the parents of a young medical student that died in car crash. A friend of mine won that scholarship and had a year paid for. Once you get in you will have shown enough smarts to do that, so you certainly will be competitive enough for such things.


4) Beyond the options in 3, there are Muslims out there that are willing to help. Once again, you have to show merit first. Get that medical school acceptance letter in your hand (or a series of acceptances) and find a benefactor. I have a colleague, also a strict Muslim, who was the son of a simple middle class guy. His dad could not afford the costs of medical school. He had to take the full loans through medical school. However, he and his dad discussed options with some wealthier Muslims in the community as his education in medical school came to an end, and he took non interest loans from them, certified in writing and notarized, and paid off the full sum of his loans before interest accumulated on them. Some of you are the kids of good folk who do not have all the money in the world. You may have close friends and family members that you can work an agreement out with. Many mosques are beginning such efforts in the states. Doctors are collectively coming together and putting funds towards scholarships/non interest loans to meritorious members of the community. If you get that medical school acceptance letter in your hand, you will have definitely showed your capabilities to such people. I plan on firmly contributing to such efforts in the future and hope that all the physicians on here make this intention along with me. We should do so for our fellow Pashtoons once we are all done with our training.

5) If all else fails, go outside the US to other countries. I talked about the option Khybar already and Luffy discussed how the costs of going there are far less than the ones in the US. Although you will face those limitations I noted in prior posts, Pakistani medical schools will still lay down the path for you to enter American medicine one day should you so choose. Once again, you will have to work very hard to get back into our system here, but it is being done everyday. I have two brothers in law from there who have made it work and I am sure they have the same level of God given intelligence as you. Afghani schools are still far behind and in their current status do not provide much of a legwork to make your way here. However, Khybar Medical does have seats for us Afghans as well.

6) If you are a female: Ok this is not at all meant to offend anyone; it is merely a practical suggestion that is geared towards the ground level realities that our women folk may face. If you are a female, use Islam to your advantage as it is a blessing for you. God has given you the right to a mahar in your nikah contract. If you meet a good person and you TRULY think that person is marriage material, be upfront and honest about your goals and aspirations regarding attending medical school. Examine their financial situation. If you decide you still want to marry that person regardless of finances, then do so and live a happy life working toward your dream together. However, if they have the financial means: discuss the possibility of having your husband to PAY your way through professional schooling. I personally believe that this is an excellent mahar gift for a girl. However, many people do not know this but for the mahar contract to count in the US, you have to have 2 lawyers officially witness it and go through the actual legal procedures required for making it legally binding. Many muslimah girls do not know this and end up getting the short end of the stick when their husband do idiotic things. This is a delicate matter though and make sure that the man you want to marry has it in his heart to take on this excellent and rewarding duty.

Bottom line: For now my friend, work on getting those acceptance letters in your hand. Allah will help you with the rest and I will also be there to guide you.