A Tribute to Mohammed Ali Jinnah

[BLS_1919v2.0]

^^ok luffy be a little fair. We gained zero from the creation of Pakistan, so we have nothing to be thankful. Second of all, what are the statistic to back this up?

[Shayesta]

So typical, i have found every tajik and persianized pashtun to be deep lover of india.

So typical, I see every Punjabi or loyal Punjabi server to comment on anything regarding India.

There are more muslims in india than pakistan but their standard of life many times lower than pakistanis.

Which other area but Punjab in Pakistan resembles high style living?

Muslims are absent in all governament jobs...an indication of prejudice against them.

As far as I know, tension between Hindus and Muslims was by far not as high when Pakistan and India were united, do you seriously believe same would have been the case if they had sticked together?

According to their stastics muslims are poorest community in india...

Links please.

I dont understand why pashtuns would have been special in united india... for a hindu every pashtun, punjabi, bengali is muslim nothing else.

Must also be a reason for why they got much more Muslim nations as friends than even any Muslim nation itself.

You should not that same stereotypes about pashtuns are in india which are in pakistan..

At least I know India doesn't send terrorists to the countries they want to prevent from taking their land. Does any bell ring?

Pakistanis are very thankful of jinnah...the reasons of which are obvious.

While Indians (even their Muslims) are not, should be very obvious as well I guess?

[Baygham]

I met a hindu bengali the other day, he was mesmarized by me being a pashton and working in afghanistan. An educated retired architect he wished me and my peaple well. He even voluntereed to help in some projects. I have seen this a lot from hindu diaspora here in the USA.(never from a punjabi musalman)
However things in india are different, most muslims are low caste indegenous people that were poor when muslims ruled india and are dirt poor now. The rich elite are predominetly non muslims.
if pashtoons were part of india, we would have lost our novelty by now and being treated like just another low caste uneducated muslim (or hindu) in india. Some would have availed the quota system positions in universities and done better. No body knows, except one fact that we would have never been allowed to be free (nation) outside mother india.
As far as jinnah is concerned, he worked with the british and they used him to get what they wanted. A militant buffer state between india and central asia.

[Bangalorean]

for us in pakhtunkhwa, seperating out of pakistan may be infinetly easy as compared to getting out of a united india.
The condition of muslims in india is unknown to me. I dont see them have positions of high power commensurate with the percentage of muslims in india. ie in bussiness, buracracy, some token representation here and there.

That is an inaccurate statement. The previous president of India was a Muslim (APJ Abdul kalam), and he is also the most respected president of all time. In earlier years, India has had other Muslim presidents like Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed and Dr. Zakir Hussain. The highest taxpayer of India currently is the billionare Muslim businessman Azim Premji. Some of the best Indian cricketers are Muslims, such as Zaheer Khan, Irfan Pathan and Yusuf Pathan. Other prominent Muslim cricketers in India are Mohammad Kaif and Wasim Jaffer. Sania Mirza, a Muslim lady, is India's highest ranked tennis player.

Some of India's most loved actors are Muslims. I am sure you know about Shah Rukh Khan, Aamir Khan, Salman Khan, Naseeruddin Shah, Katrina Kaif, Imran Hashmi etc. etc. The oscar-winning Indian music director A.R.Rahman is also Muslim.

Indian Army's highest decoration, "Param Vir Chakra" is held by the Muslim Abdul Hamid. (for knocking out seven Pakistani tanks with recoilless gun in the 1965 war). A lot of other Muslims have received military decoration and honours, the list is too long to type here.

Mohammad Hidayatullah, A.M. Ahmadi, Mirza Hameedullah Baig, etc. have been chief justice of the Indian supreme court.

So, this was just a brief list, without even touching upon the hundreds of successful politicians, professionals, etc. I have not even typed one tenth of what I know at the back of my mind. If I search google and type, it'll fill several pages.

Muslims are absent in all governament jobs...an indication of prejudice against them. According to their stastics muslims are poorest community in india...some good looking muslims are earning from showbiz and some tough ones are playing roles of bhai loag.

Hello, "Mr. Luffy"! What utter nonsense you type!

[Baygham]

That is an inaccurate statement. The previous president of India was a Muslim (APJ Abdul kalam), and he is also the most respected president of all time. In earlier years, India has had other Muslim presidents like Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed and Dr. Zakir Hussain. The highest taxpayer of India currently is the billionare Muslim businessman Azim Premji. Some of the best Indian cricketers are Muslims, such as Zaheer Khan, Irfan Pathan and Yusuf Pathan. Other prominent Muslim cricketers in India are Mohammad Kaif and Wasim Jaffer. Sania Mirza, a Muslim lady, is India's highest ranked tennis player.

Some of India's most loved actors are Muslims. I am sure you know about Shah Rukh Khan, Aamir Khan, Salman Khan, Naseeruddin Shah, Katrina Kaif, Imran Hashmi etc. etc. The oscar-winning Indian music director A.R.Rahman is also Muslim.

Indian Army's highest decoration, "Param Vir Chakra" is held by the Muslim Abdul Hamid. (for knocking out seven Pakistani tanks with recoilless gun in the 1965 war). A lot of other Muslims have received military decoration and honours, the list is too long to type here.

Mohammad Hidayatullah, A.M. Ahmadi, Mirza Hameedullah Baig, etc. have been chief justice of the Indian supreme court.

So, this was just a brief list, without even touching upon the hundreds of successful politicians, professionals, etc. I have not even typed one tenth of what I know at the back of my mind. If I search google and type, it'll fill several pages.

Azim premji is ismaili, and by no means considered a representative of the majority muslims.


India is a great country. indeginous indians whether muslims or hindus would do great. Right now muslims are not representing the higher class as much as there numbers suggest they should. Just like the hindu dalits (millions and only a few worth mentioning). They do have more oppurtunities in universities etc and india should be commended for such forward thinking.

However the afghans are not indeginous indians and never were, we have our own nation and geographic space and would love to live in harmony with a neighbour india not in it.

[Bangalorean]

Azim premji is ismaili, and by no means considered a representative of the majority muslims.


India is a great country. indeginous indians whether muslims or hindus would do great. Right now muslims are not representing the higher class as much as there numbers suggest they should. Just like the hindu dalits (millions and only a few worth mentioning). They do have more oppurtunities in universities etc and india should be commended for such forward thinking.

However the afghans are not indeginous indians and never were, we have our own nation and geographic space and would love to live in harmony with a neighbour india not in it.

I agree with all your statements. I was never suggesting that you are part of the Indian nation! I was just responding to the point that there are few prominent Muslims in India.

I also agree that even though there are so many prominent Muslims, in percentage terms their representation somewhat less than Hindus. The reason for this is, again, partition. When partition happened, most of the elite Muslims went to Pakistan. Hence there were very few elite/rich Muslims left in India to begin with. Many of these Muslims were too poor to migrate. So, in a way, the underclass of Muslims was left behind in India while the upper crest moved to Pakistan. Things are vastly improving though, and all signs around are positive!

[tor_khan]

So typical, i have found every tajik and persianized pashtun to be deep lover of india.

Luffy, I think this is inevitable given the different directions Pashtoons look in. If Afghans (including those you call Persian*ised*) look to India, then know that there are many Pashtoons raised under the two-nation nonsense, who have slightly over-channelled their energies into India-hate when they could have just looked and learned, appreciated and not be drawn in. I am talking here of Pashtoons who have been told since day one that protection of Islamic interests lay with, said hostitility of India, which equals automatic love for Pakistan.

There are more muslims in india than pakistan but their standard of life many times lower than pakistanis. Muslims are absent in all governament jobs...an indication of prejudice against them. According to their stastics muslims are poorest community in india...some good looking muslims are earning from showbiz and some tough ones are playing roles of bhai loag.

Luffy, I think that you may stumble on some of the reasons for this if you back pedal slightly and begin to look critically at the historical role of Islam in India and who became Muslim. Islam in India came in waves and some of those accompanied conquest and was associated with the ruling classes. Many Hindus who became Muslim were poor. They remained poor even after they became Muslim and many continue to remain poor, so one aspect is the historical legacy.

A poor Dalit, will remain a poor whether he chooses Buddhism, Islam or Christianity etc. Note, how the Christians in India (like Pakistan) are, on the whole poor and down-trodden. The class/caste issues in Hindu culture doesn't really make it easy for social mobility, hence, poor Muslims who are culturally Hindu, remain on the whole, poor.

The British arrival in India is seen in Pakistan as the reason why Muslim administrators were removed from power. I don't think that that is borne out by the reality. The Mughals for example, may have been the Muslim rulers, but their administrators were a mix of Hindus and Muslims and anecdotally, I would guess that Hindus were kept sweet by not completely excluding them from the Mughal power structure. The Mughals could not run India without some Hindu cooperation and finding Hindus a role. When the Mughals fell from power, the Brits kept on the administrators. That did not change and this was passed on post-partition, hence the appearingly "Hindu-domination" stories. Pakistan is a different story - there administrators were Muslim, but in India, whilst mixed, they were - as you know - mostly Hindu. That's not India's fault - it's just a numbers/population thing.

But consider, that despite the poverty and marginalisation, do you think that in 2010, despite their woes, Indian Muslims would opt to join Pakistan if given the choice??

Overall, aren't Indians more optimistic? Aren't the Muslims and the Hindus there more at peace with their political institutions? Aren't they more at peace with their own foreign politics? Don't they believe more in the potential of their country? Isn't there this general belief that India is able to absorb new ideas whilst being able to draw from a rich cultural past? Haven't Indians embraced modernism, industry and technology? Don't modern Indians believe that there is opportunity at home?

I dont understand why pashtuns would have been special in united india... for a hindu every pashtun, punjabi, bengali is muslim nothing else. You should not that same stereotypes about pashtuns are in india which are in pakistan..

India has largely been separated from Afghanistan and Pastunkhwa for 60 something years. This means that real views maybe are mixed. Perhaps now, on the back of the Bacha Khan legacy, the views are favourable, though I do agree that if India was united then Pashtoons could well be viewed as they are viewed in Pakistan. World politics is built on alliances, so whilst we need to form alliances, ultimately we need to be cautious too. I think in the immediate term, we should consider Pakistan and its relationship with India, with Afghanistan and the treatment of Pashtoons within its boundaries and the type of governance that it delivers. Speaks volumes in itself, and perhaps as Pashtoons, India is not the first on our list of worries.

Pakistanis are very thankful of jinnah...the reasons of which are obvious.

Reminds me of the time when someone wrote, "Bada Khabees Aadmee hai yeh Tor Khan" (different forum, different place) simply because I questioned Jinnah and 14th Aug celebrations.

He remains a complex and interesting man, but I don't thank Jinnah. He couldn't have known this back in the 1940s, but if he were alive today then I would love to know Jinnah's real views on contemporary Pakistan and whether, the world itself, is a better/safer place as a result of his insistence on Pakistan.

[Toramana]

So typical, i have found every tajik and persianized pashtun to be deep lover of india.

There are more muslims in india than pakistan but their standard of life many times lower than pakistanis. Muslims are absent in all governament jobs...an indication of prejudice against them. According to their stastics muslims are poorest community in india...some good looking muslims are earning from showbiz and some tough ones are playing roles of bhai loag.

I dont understand why pashtuns would have been special in united india... for a hindu every pashtun, punjabi, bengali is muslim nothing else. You should not that same stereotypes about pashtuns are in india which are in pakistan..

Pakistanis are very thankful of jinnah...the reasons of which are obvious.

What was the status of Bangalis in United Pakistan by the way? They protested against Jannah right in 1948 when he went ahead with his decision to impose the langauge imported from India on Bangalis against their wishes.

Why forget plight of Baluchis under the benign rule of Jannah whose land was merged with Pakistan through a dictatorial decree? What has been going on to them or Sindhis or Pashtuns since then? They have been treated no better than Mulsims in India by Hindus as you claim.

[Michin Khel]

Luffy, I think this is inevitable given the different directions Pashtoons look in. If Afghans (including those you call Persian*ised*) look to India, then know that there are many Pashtoons raised under the two-nation nonsense, who have slightly over-channelled their energies into India-hate when they could have just looked and learned, appreciated and not be drawn in. I am talking here of Pashtoons who have been told since day one that protection of Islamic interests lay with, said hostitility of India, which equals automatic love for Pakistan.

I agree with your explanation. We pashtuns of pakistan are injected with doses of mutala pakistan at every level of education( pakistan studies is a compulsory subject even upo graduate level). And yes love of pakistan is based on hostility towards india. Hindus are targeted in mutala pakistan right from advent of aryans to 2000 AD....I had to read lot of books beside mutala.pakistan to realize some facts...but we are so traumatized from mutala that i am unable to think india as sweet friend...though i have no particular hatred for india, i dont consider her paradise for muslims especially in case of kashmir.

Luffy, I think that you may stumble on some of the reasons for this if you back pedal slightly and begin to look critically at the historical role of Islam in India and who became Muslim. Islam in India came in waves and some of those accompanied conquest and was associated with the ruling classes. Many Hindus who became Muslim were poor. They remained poor even after they became Muslim and many continue to remain poor, so one aspect is the historical legacy.

A poor Dalit, will remain a poor whether he chooses Buddhism, Islam or Christianity etc. Note, how the Christians in India (like Pakistan) are, on the whole poor and down-trodden. The class/caste issues in Hindu culture doesn't really make it easy for social mobility, hence, poor Muslims who are culturally Hindu, remain on the whole, poor.

The British arrival in India is seen in Pakistan as the reason why Muslim administrators were removed from power. I don't think that that is borne out by the reality. The Mughals for example, may have been the Muslim rulers, but their administrators were a mix of Hindus and Muslims and anecdotally, I would guess that Hindus were kept sweet by not completely excluding them from the Mughal power structure. The Mughals could not run India without some Hindu cooperation and finding Hindus a role. When the Mughals fell from power, the Brits kept on the administrators. That did not change and this was passed on post-partition, hence the appearingly "Hindu-domination" stories. Pakistan is a different story - there administrators were Muslim, but in India, whilst mixed, they were - as you know - mostly Hindu. That's not India's fault - it's just a numbers/population thing.

good explanation, Part of me also says that indian muslims are not doing so much to alter their present condition.

But consider, that despite the poverty and marginalisation, do you think that in 2010, despite their woes, Indian Muslims would opt to join Pakistan if given the choice??

Honestly i dont know much about thinking of indian muslims.

Overall, aren't Indians more optimistic? Aren't the Muslims and the Hindus there more at peace with their political institutions? Aren't they more at peace with their own foreign politics? Don't they believe more in the potential of their country? Isn't there this general belief that India is able to absorb new ideas whilst being able to draw from a rich cultural past? Haven't Indians embraced modernism, industry and technology? Don't modern Indians believe that there is opportunity at home?

Overall india is indeed advancing and has good international attidue than pakistan...i agree with you

India has largely been separated from Afghanistan and Pastunkhwa for 60 something years. This means that real views maybe are mixed. Perhaps now, on the back of the Bacha Khan legacy, the views are favourable, though I do agree that if India was united then Pashtoons could well be viewed as they are viewed in Pakistan. World politics is built on alliances, so whilst we need to form alliances, ultimately we need to be cautious too. I think in the immediate term, we should consider Pakistan and its relationship with India, with Afghanistan and the treatment of Pashtoons within its boundaries and the type of governance that it delivers. Speaks volumes in itself, and perhaps as Pashtoons, India is not the first on our list of worries.



Reminds me of the time when someone wrote, "Bada Khabees Aadmee hai yeh Tor Khan" (different forum, different place) simply because I questioned Jinnah and 14th Aug celebrations.

He remains a complex and interesting man, but I don't thank Jinnah. He couldn't have known this back in the 1940s, but if he were alive today then I would love to know Jinnah's real views on contemporary Pakistan and whether, the world itself, is a better/safer place as a result of his insistence on Pakistan.

I have nothing more to say, your have given very valid explanations to me. Thanks.

[Michin Khel]

What was the status of Bangalis in United Pakistan by the way? They protested against Jannah right in 1948 when he went ahead with his decision to impose the langauge imported from India on Bangalis against their wishes.

Why forget plight of Baluchis under the benign rule of Jannah whose land was merged with Pakistan through a dictatorial decree? What has been going on to them or Sindhis or Pashtuns since then? They have been treated no better than Mulsims in India by Hindus as you claim.

Indeed but i was talking about indian muslims in term of their poor economic conditions.

[Master Khan]

It is known that when Dina married Neville, Jinnah said to her that she was not his daughter any more. Jinnah disowned her and the father-daughter relationship became extremely formal after she married. They did correspond, but he addressed her formally as 'Mrs. Wadia'. Dina and Neville lived in Mumbai and had two children, a boy and a girl. Dina's son Nusli Wadia became a Christian, but converted back to Zoroastrianism and settled in the industrially wealthy Parsi community of Mumbai. Dina did not travel to Pakistan until her father's funeral in Karachi in September 1948.

[khushal]

I know Tor Khan basically explained it all and I agree with him 100% and learned much from his post. I would like to add that a united India would have had a 50% muslim population today so you cant compare the rights and acheivements of a 20% muslim population to the rights and acheivements of a 50% muslim population. I personally think India would have been ruled by muslims today because historicall it has always been ruled by muslims.

Also the poor muslims you talk about in India, that is where the conversion to Islam is mostly happening. The poor are attracted to Islam because islam does not beleive in the caste system. It teaches the poor equality.

If a united India existed today, Afghanistan would not be in the situation it is today. There would have been a Russia, Afghanistan, India socialist block so america would have been prevented to use afghanistan as a proxy against the soviets. It would be a different world today.

[KhalsaWarrior]

Tor-Khan, I must say your knowledge and insight into the historical Muslim society in India is commendable. Given the that there are many Pakistanis here with there flawed versions of history, I had assumed PF to be the last place where I'd find such an insightful post on Muslims in India.

I will add my two cents. Muslims in India are a deeply divided lot and that has contributed to them being at the bottom of the strata in all economic indicators. They also have very few role models. Actors hardly count and there are only a couple of industrialists.

In terms of divisions, the ones from Delhi and surrounding areas ones consider themselves ex-nobility and are relatively well-off as compared to their Eastern brethren. Many of them have Pashtun lineage, especially in western UP. They despise the Purabiya Muslims, many of whom are lower-class Hindu converts, so much that they disassociate themselves from them completely.

[Maulik]

for us in pakhtunkhwa, seperating out of pakistan may be infinetly easy as compared to getting out of a united india.
The condition of muslims in india is unknown to me. I dont see them have positions of high power commensurate with the percentage of muslims in india. ie in bussiness, buracracy, some token representation here and there.

$$ List Of Top Indian Muslims.$$
List of Some of the Top Indian muslims
[s1]1. Arts
*.A. R. Rahman*.Salim Khan*.Mohammed Rafi*.Saroj Khan*.Farah Khan*.Salma Arastu*.*.Bismillah Khan*.*.Shah Rukh Khan*.Aamir Khan*.Dilip Kumar*.Naseeruddin Shah*.Salman Khan*.Shabana Azmi[/s1]
[s2]2. Sports**.Sania Mirza*.Zeeshan Ali*
.Cricket*..Mansoor Ali Khan Pataudi*.Abid Ali*.Ghulam Ahmed*.Syed Kirmani*.Arshad Ayub*.Mohammad Azharuddin*.*.Zaheer Khan*.Irfan Pathan*.Wasim Jaffer*.Munaf Patel*.Yusuf Pathan[/s2]
[s3]3. Politics Presidents of India*.Dr A.P.J. Abdul Kalam*.Fakhruddin Ali AhmedN*.Zakir Hussain
Vice-President of India*.Zakir Hussain (politician)*.Mohammad Hamid Ansari*.Muhammad Hidayatullah
Governors of the states*.Akhlaqur Rahman Kidwai*.Ali Yavar Jung*.Amin ud-din Ahmad Khan
Chief Ministers*.Abdul Rehman Antulay,Maharashtra*.Abdul Gafoor,Bihar*.Barkatullah Khan,Rajasthan*.Anowara Taimur,Assam*.C.H. Mohammed Koya,Kerala*.Ghulam Nabi Azad,J&K*.Omar Abdullah,J&K*.Syed Mir Qasim,Jammu&Kashmir*.Farooq Abdullah,Jammu&Kashmir*[/s3]
[s1]4. Military*.Abdul Hamid*.Lt. General Zameerud-din Shah*.Idris Hasan Latif*.M. A. Zaki,Lt Gen*.Brigadier Mohammad Usman*.Rajiq Khan*.Sqn Ldr Zafar Ali Shah*.Lt Hanifudeen[/s1]
[s2]5. Science*.A.P.J.Abdul Kalam*.Salim Ali*.Obaid Siddiqui*.Dr.Qaiser Baqri*.Dr. Husain ZaheerexDG CSIR*.Syed Zahoor Qasim*.Faizan Ahmad[/s2]
[s3]6. Medicine*.Dr. C.M. Habibullah*.Dr.Syed Ziaur Rahman
*.Dr. Mohammed Galib Hussain[/s3]
[s1]7. Industry and business*.Azim Premji*.Mohd.Ateeq (Chairman&Founder ARC Industries)*.Sahil Khan (CMD S.K.Group)*.Yusuf Hamied*.Mohd Arshad(Founder&CEO, Cherisys Technologies)*.Fakhruddin T. Khorakiwala*.Shahnaz Husain*.S.H.Khan, ex Chairman IDBI*.Ishaat Husain, Tatas*.M.A.Yusafali(LULU Groups)*.Muhmadali(Gulfar Group)*.K.R Malick(SRK groups*.Patel Md. YousufHijaz Leathers, Vaniyambadi
*.Dr. Mohammed Galib Hussain[/s1]
[s2]8. Civil awards*.Bharat Ratna*.Bismillah Khan*.Zakir Hussain (politician)*.Maulana Abul Kalam Azad*.A.P.J. Abdul Kalam*.[/s2]
[s3]And there are many more who contributed in to development of india. We are proud of you.:India:.[/s3]

[Michin Khel]

What do you think people, was mohammad ali jinnah sincere to muslims?
He himself said that " meri jaib may kotay sikay be hain" i.e he was pointing towards black sheep in his muslim league.
The prominent figures in muslim league were mainly landlords...india after independence finished landlorldism, while in pakistan it even flourished more...pakistan is created for and by landlords/jagirdaars?...