Is Pakistan disintegrating?

[Wrayun]

Hey trollrunner,

Why you keep contradicting yourself?

The Indians of Pathan descent means what exactly? They are not really a representation of anyone from the Pashtun lands, a lot of them don't even speak Pashto.

^So language is now important? trolololololol


Oh yeah, just dismiss the points I bring forth as my arrogance. Keep trolling.

ps, I didn't say I was going to ignore you, just that topic of yours.
ps2, You don't have to reply and say you are not trolling, you are, you just dont know that's what its called.

[roadrunner]

Hey trollrunner,

Why you keep contradicting yourself?




^So language is now important? trolololololol

I'm not contradicting myself.

I didn't come out with any authoritative answers from the what constitutes a Pashtun thread.

Answers seemed to be father's lineage, language, and Pashtunwali.

Alright, so they don't speak Pashto, many don't follow Pashtunwali and probably celebrate Diwali, and father's lineage is likely to have been one Pashtun probably 2,000 years ago that strayed into India accidentally.

How does that make them Pashtun?

Oh yeah, just dismiss the points I bring forth as my arrogance. Keep trolling.

ps, I didn't say I was going to ignore you, just that topic of yours.
ps2, You don't have to reply and say you are not trolling, you are, you just dont know that's what its called.

You're right, I should try and help you.

Why do you believe that Sardukhar is performed at Gor Khatree? Do you know the basis for it? The relevant texts?

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Oh wow. Showing pictures of the floods is really a good representation.

I think you need to look at Punjabis and Sindhis in general.

They share some similarity with Indian Punjabis and Gujeratis, but that's about it.

Generally you can easily tell a Pakistani Punjabi or Sindhi from people in South India, Northeast India, central India.

So they can look northwesterly Indian i suppose, but generally I'd say it was more of a Pakistani look than an Indian one.

roadrunner, have you ever been to Punjab? I've been there many times and a lot of people in the rural areas have very dark complexion and they look as though they're from Mumbai or Pune or somewhere. And I live in Sindh and interact with Sindhis on a daily basis. You can't tell the difference between a Sindhi or an Indian Mohajir. They are from the same genetic stock as opposed to Pashtuns, who are very easily identifiable.

The border between Pakistani and Indian Punjab is an artificial one. The frontier of the Indus is a natural one and you can actually tell the difference! India got its name from the river Indus. When you cross the river Indus, India begins. Everything towards the west of the Indus is Central Asia. This isn't coming from me, this is what the British observed when they came here.

Pakistani Punjabis have an inferiority complex about their Indian origins. If anything, Punjab is the heart of India (note that many of the inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization migrated to the Ganges in around 1500-1000BC). But the sons of Prithvi Raj (Punjabis and Indian Mohajirs) support Mohammad Ghauri (A Turk with an Afghan army). That's their level of self-hatred.

To claim that a Punjabi from Amritsar is somehow different from another in Faisalabad is preposterous.

By the way, there are still a few Hindu temples in our Lakki Marwat and Bannu regions.

roadrunner, these are some pictures of the rural areas of Sindh and Punjab. Tell me whether these people are of Indian or Central Asian stock and how these Punjabis and Sindis are different from Rajastanis, Indian Punjabis, Gujaratis, etc:

http://peakwater.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/t1larg.jpg

http://www.oxfamblogs.org/southasia/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/shukkur-3.jpg

http://wondersofpakistan.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/ok-0055.jpg

http://www.long-associates.biz/Village%20sugar%20cane%20(2)%20web.jpg

http://wondersofpakistan.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/img_5848-copy-2.jpg

http://www.internationalrivers.org/files/images/Indienpakistanreise%20april06%20067.jpg

http://wondersofpakistan.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/img_9655-copy.jpg

[roadrunner]

roadrunner, have you ever been to Punjab? I've been there many times and a lot of people in the rural areas have very dark complexion and they look as though they're from Mumbai or Pune or somewhere. And I live in Sindh and interact with Sindhis on a daily basis. You can't tell the difference between a Sindhi or an Indian Mohajir. They are from the same genetic stock as opposed to Pashtuns, who are very easily identifiable.

You can't tell the difference between a Sindhi and a Mohajir.

I can.

That is because you don't know enough basic anthropology.

The border between Pakistani and Indian Punjab is an artificial one. The frontier of the Indus is a natural one and you can actually tell the difference! India got its name from the river Indus. When you cross the river Indus, India begins. Everything towards the west of the Indus is Central Asia. This isn't coming from me, this is what the British observed when they came here.

India got it's name from the Indus river.

The real India is the Indus Valley.

India simply stole the name.

I think it was Gandhi that mentioned that thing you mention.

Pakistani Punjabis have an inferiority complex about their Indian origins. If anything, Punjab is the heart of India (note that many of the inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization migrated to the Ganges in around 1500-1000BC).

Whether Punjabis have an inferiority complex is no concern of mine.

Whether they have Indian origins, the answer is they have some, and they also don't have some. They just have Punjabi origins.

Punjab is not in the heart of India. I've never read anything so stupid as this. The heart of India is the Ganges and the Deccan plains.

Dear me, you really are a bad historian. There was no mass migration of the Indus Valley Civilization. That's so stupid, I would suggest that you see a doctor.

There was NO mass migration of IVC people during its decline.

But the sons of Prithvi Raj (Punjabis and Indian Mohajirs) support Mohammad Ghauri (A Turk with an Afghan army). That's their level of self-hatred.

You fairytale fanatic.

Punjabis are just a grouping of people with no descent from any particular person.

Much like Pashtuns. The Pashtuns do not have a common ancestor that only Pashtuns share.

To claim that a Punjabi from Amritsar is somehow different from another in Faisalabad is preposterous.

Where did I disagree with this?

Do you know the geography of India and Pakistan?

Amritsar is in the Northwest of India, and I said there some similarity between Punjabis and Northwest of India, but Punjabis generally will look more Pakistani than Indian.

By the way, there are still a few Hindu temples in our Lakki Marwat and Bannu regions.

All these ancient temples that you claim are Hindu are not Hindu.

You need to improve your poor knowledge of Pashtun history to realize why they are not Hindu. Otherwise you will simply be a parrot.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

You can't tell the difference between a Sindhi and a Mohajir.

I can.

That is because you don't know enough basic anthropology.

lol how old are you, dude?

Okay, click on this picture. Tell me what features they have that make them Sindhi and how are they different from the Punjabis in this picture.

Whether Punjabis have an inferiority complex is no concern of mine.

Whether they have Indian origins, the answer is they have some, and they also don't have some. They just have Punjabi origins.

Punjab is not in the heart of India. I've never read anything so stupid as this. The heart of India is the Ganges and the Deccan plains.

Punjab is where India begins. Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, with its Central Asian people, expands up to the Indus river. After that, Punjab and hence, India, begins.

Dear me, you really are a bad historian. There was no mass migration of the Indus Valley Civilization. That's so stupid, I would suggest that you see a doctor.

There was NO mass migration of IVC people during its decline.

lol this one takes the cake. Come on, roadrunner, we all know that most of the stuff you say is unsubstantiated and holds no weight whatsoever but this time around, you're going completely against the facts. Let me school you, boy, and then you can apologize for being wrong and arrogant later:

The Indus culture dies out. Its people move east into Rajasthan and the Ganges watershed. Others head south to Gujarat, where the sea port at Lothal continues to flourish for a time before being abandoned too. Its inhabitants merge with the Stone Age tribes of the Deccan Plateau in central India and others in southern India. Squatters take over the abandoned citadels, living in slum dwellings, and village life continues in the countryside. The urban heritage is passed on to the east and engenders the emergence of cities in the Ganges valley and northern India, and the civilisation's reverence for animals is also passed on.
Kingdoms of South Asia - Indus Valley Culture

I mean, seriously, do you really think the people of the Indus Valley suddenly left their cities and vanished into thin air?

For all its achievements, the Indus civilization is still poorly understood. Its very existence was forgotten until the twentieth century. Its writing system, Indus script, remained undeciphered for a long time and it was generally accepted that it was a Dravidian language. In this view (see below) the original Dravidian inhabitants of India were forced South by the migration or invasion of Aryans, who brought with them proto-Vedic that later developed into Sanksrit
Indus Valley Civilization - New World Encyclopedia

You fairytale fanatic.

Punjabis are just a grouping of people with no descent from any particular person.

Much like Pashtuns. The Pashtuns do not have a common ancestor that only Pashtuns share.

Do I specifically have to mention when I'm saying something figuratively or literally? Seriously.... how smart are you?

Where did I disagree with this?

Do you know the geography of India and Pakistan?

Amritsar is in the Northwest of India, and I said there some similarity between Punjabis and Northwest of India, but Punjabis generally will look more Pakistani than Indian.

Look at the pictures above and describe how they look more Pakistani than Indian please. I'm waiting...

All these ancient temples that you claim are Hindu are not Hindu.

You need to improve your poor knowledge of Pashtun history to realize why they are not Hindu. Otherwise you will simply be a parrot.

Again, ignorant and wrong. Boy, my dad, his brothers and sisters tell me that there were and still are Hindu businessmen in Lakki Marwat and Bannu. There are active Hindu temples there with blue bhagwaans and Swastikas and what not. Unlike you, I am a Pashtun and I have links to my ancestral village. Grow up, kiddo.

[Wrayun]

Pictures can be deceiving. Are these people Central Asians or Indics?




In any mixed region, like ours, you are bound to pick up features of both the father and the mother. It is peoples narrow minded perspective that they assume if the father is light skinned, children will be light skinned. No, the children can go after either of the parents, light or dark. So just because people look a certain way doesn't necessarily mean that they don't share genetics with others who might look different.

Are Pukhtoons/Afghans really Central Asians? If we are, does that make us aliens in these parts of the region? Then the argument presented by Indics and others that we don't belong in this region becomes valid.

True story, when the Yousafzai came into the Swat regions, they displaced Dilazaks, and called them "non-Afghans" because they were mixed, darker in skin tone. Yet, Dilazaks came from Kandahar just like the Yousafzai did however they intermixed with the locals. Now few centuries down the road, if you go to areas like Menshera, Noshera etc. you will find Yousafzais now with darker complexions compared to their brethen in Kandahar or any where else.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Wrayun, you will agree, however, when I say that the persons in the pictures I posted above cannot be Pashtuns. Of course Pashtuns are not a race and there are darker and fairer Pashtuns. However, even the more tanned ones are very different from the average Punjabi, Sindhi, Rajhastani, Gujarati, etc. The fact is that Pashtuns have intermarried with Pashtuns more often than they have married with Punjabis or other races. Even so, most Pashtuns (I would say 2/3rds or more) are easily distinguishable by their physical appearance alone.

That's not the point I was trying to make, by the way. roadrunner said that Punjabis and Sindhis in Pakistan are different from the those in India. I wanted to show him that that wasn't the case just like Pashtuns in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa and FATA are not different from those in Afghanistan. He also made the claim that Sindhis and Indian Mohajirs look different from each other even though here in Karachi, you can't tell the difference between them until they start talking.

[Wrayun]

Wrayun, you will agree, however, when I say that the persons in the pictures I posted above cannot be Pashtuns. Of course Pashtuns are not a race and there are darker and fairer Pashtuns. However, even the more tanned ones are very different from the average Punjabi, Sindhi, Rajhastani, Gujarati, etc. The fact is that Pashtuns have intermarried with Pashtuns more often than they have married with Punjabis or other races. Even so, most Pashtuns (I would say 2/3rds or more) are easily distinguishable by their physical appearance alone.

That's not the point I was trying to make, by the way. roadrunner said that Punjabis and Sindhis in Pakistan are different from the those in India. I wanted to show him that that wasn't the case just like Pashtuns in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa and FATA are not different from those in Afghanistan. He also made the claim that Sindhis and Indian Mohajirs look different from each other even though here in Karachi, you can't tell the difference between them until they start talking.

Agreed.

[khyaal]

Are Pukhtoons/Afghans really Central Asians? If we are, does that make us aliens in these parts of the region? Then the argument presented by Indics and others that we don't belong in this region becomes valid.

But it has repeatedly been told that when one crosses the river Indus he steps into Central Asian. Beyond Indus lies Punjab or the Indian subcontinent). So our Pakhtunkhwa land has always been our habitat since pre-historic times.

Read the book 'The Kingdome of Kabul' by Elphinstone, the first British ambassador who was sent to Afghanistan around 1805 where he reported to King Shah Shuja in his court in Peshawar (the winter capital of Afghanistan) Balahisar.

True story, when the Yousafzai came into the Swat regions, they displaced Dilazaks, and called them "non-Afghans" because they were mixed, darker in skin tone. Yet, Dilazaks came from Kandahar just like the Yousafzai did however they intermixed with the locals. Now few centuries down the road, if you go to areas like Menshera, Noshera etc. you will find Yousafzais now with darker complexions compared to their brethen in Kandahar or any where else.

When Yousafzai (originally Aspasioi) under the leadership of Malik Ahmad migrated to Swat in persuit of safety from Olagh Beg's persecution, they were initially welcomed by 'Sultan Was' who was then the tribal elder of those Pashtuns Yousafzai who had stayed in Swat during Alexander's invasions of Kunar, Bajawar and Swat. So Sultan Was (tribal chief) and Sultan Pakal, the two tribal elders represented those Yousafzai while Malik Ahmad was the tribal chief of the newcomer Yousafzai. Later on their relations got tense. It was actually a inter-tribal fight in which Malik Ahmad's men succeeded to push those native Yousafzai towards Hazara region where now they call themselves Swatis.

[roadrunner]

lol how old are you, dude?

Clearly a failed response warrants such a reply.

Okay, click on this picture. Tell me what features they have that make them Sindhi and how are they different from the Punjabis in this picture.

Individual pictures of peasant labourers are not important.

There's some Indianness in the Punjab and Sindh. There also is some non Indianness. They're simply Punjabi or Sindhi, not Indian which is too broad a term.

The Punjabis have a set look which is somewhere in between the Pashtun and the Uttar Pradesh look.

Punjab is where India begins. Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, with its Central Asian people, expands up to the Indus river. After that, Punjab and hence, India, begins.

India begins at the Indo=Pak border.

The Indic people is a linguistical grouping and means nothing.

lol this one takes the cake. Come on, roadrunner, we all know that most of the stuff you say is unsubstantiated and holds no weight whatsoever but this time around, you're going completely against the facts. Let me school you, boy, and then you can apologize for being wrong and arrogant later:

The Indus culture dies out. Its people move east into Rajasthan and the Ganges watershed. Others head south to Gujarat, where the sea port at Lothal continues to flourish for a time before being abandoned too. Its inhabitants merge with the Stone Age tribes of the Deccan Plateau in central India and others in southern India. Squatters take over the abandoned citadels, living in slum dwellings, and village life continues in the countryside. The urban heritage is passed on to the east and engenders the emergence of cities in the Ganges valley and northern India, and the civilisation's reverence for animals is also passed on.
Kingdoms of South Asia - Indus Valley Culture

I mean, seriously, do you really think the people of the Indus Valley suddenly left their cities and vanished into thin air?

For all its achievements, the Indus civilization is still poorly understood. Its very existence was forgotten until the twentieth century. Its writing system, Indus script, remained undeciphered for a long time and it was generally accepted that it was a Dravidian language. In this view (see below) the original Dravidian inhabitants of India were forced South by the migration or invasion of Aryans, who brought with them proto-Vedic that later developed into Sanksrit
Indus Valley Civilization - New World Encyclopedia

Such stupidity I've only met before in Indian posters.

The IVC people did not uproot themselves and leave the Indus Valley.

They remained firmly where they were, though some wandered off into India.

What happened was a cultural shift.

Look at the pictures above and describe how they look more Pakistani than Indian please. I'm waiting...

If I showed you some light skinned Punjabis, then according to your logic this would be a good representation of Punjabi people.

I'm not wasting time on looking at silly little pictures that you pick to suit your argument.

Again, ignorant and wrong. Boy, my dad, his brothers and sisters tell me that there were and still are Hindu businessmen in Lakki Marwat and Bannu. There are active Hindu temples there with blue bhagwaans and Swastikas and what not. Unlike you, I am a Pashtun and I have links to my ancestral village. Grow up, kiddo.

It is very easy to claim Pashtunness on the internet.

It is silly chest-beating like a true ape.

They are not Hindu temples.

I can see why you think they are. Your knowledge is weak. It is spoonfed from sites that you have interpreted from an Indian mindset, thinking that the IVC people uprooted themselves like some biblical event.

Similarly your poor interpretation causes you to believe these are Hindu temples. It is simply wishful thinking and not more. I could perhaps tell you what they really are, I suppose.

[roadrunner]

That's not the point I was trying to make, by the way. roadrunner said that Punjabis and Sindhis in Pakistan are different from the those in India. I wanted to show him that that wasn't the case just like Pashtuns in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa and FATA are not different from those in Afghanistan. He also made the claim that Sindhis and Indian Mohajirs look different from each other even though here in Karachi, you can't tell the difference between them until they start talking.

You didnt prove anything.

You showed a couple of pictures of Punjabis and Sindhis that perhaps did have an Indian origin.

This doesnt prove a thing.

And yes, it is very easy to tell the difference between a average Sindhi and a average Muhajir if you knew some basic anthropology.

[roadrunner]

But it has repeatedly been told that when one crosses the river Indus he steps into Central Asian. Beyond Indus lies Punjab or the Indian subcontinent). So our Pakhtunkhwa land has always been our habitat since pre-historic times.

Read the book 'The Kingdome of Kabul' by Elphinstone, the first British ambassador who was sent to Afghanistan around 1805 where he reported to King Shah Shuja in his court in Peshawar (the winter capital of Afghanistan) Balahisar.

It has repeatedly been told that all Pashtuns descend from one man (an Arab), it doesn't make it true.

I'm not totally disagreeing with you btw about it being central asian.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Clearly a failed response warrants such a reply.

Individual pictures of peasant labourers are not important.

There's some Indianness in the Punjab and Sindh. There also is some non Indianness. They're simply Punjabi or Sindhi, not Indian which is too broad a term.

The Punjabis have a set look which is somewhere in between the Pashtun and the Uttar Pradesh look.

That's not the anthropological reply that I was looking for. I proved my case with actual pictures. Mere words are meaningless especically since you couldn't refute a single word I said.

India begins at the Indo=Pak border.

The Indic people is a linguistical grouping and means nothing.

Wrong. Pakistan consists of two provinces of Afghanistan and two of India. You cross the Indus river, you see an Indian people (Punjabis) and that's where India begins. Pakistan is a state, not a region. Stop being shy about your Indian origins. Indians have much to be proud of. You don't have to group yourself with us Pashtuns to make yourself feel happy about who you are. Your own Indian culture and heritage is good enough.

Such stupidity I've only met before in Indian posters.

The IVC people did not uproot themselves and leave the Indus Valley.

They remained firmly where they were, though some wandered off into India.

What happened was a cultural shift.

lol so this is what you do what you're confronted with hard facts? All the experts and professionals agree that there was a mass-migration because the Indus river system failed them and they had to leave for southern India. So you're right and the experts are wrong? Come on... How else do you account for the deserted cities from the north of the Indus down very south to Moenjedaro?

If I showed you some light skinned Punjabis, then according to your logic this would be a good representation of Punjabi people.

I'm not wasting time on looking at silly little pictures that you pick to suit your argument.

Hey, you claimed to the the anthropological expert, not me. Of course there are light-skinned Punjabis, too, most of who claim to be Arab, Turk, Pashtun or Persian, by the way. They're a minority though and if you go to rural Punjab, you'll see that most people are very dark and you can't tell the difference between them or the inhabitants of other regions of India, save for Bengal and Assam (and their more east-Asian features).

It is very easy to claim Pashtunness on the internet.

It is silly chest-beating like a true ape.

They are not Hindu temples.

I can see why you think they are. Your knowledge is weak. It is spoonfed from sites that you have interpreted from an Indian mindset, thinking that the IVC people uprooted themselves like some biblical event.

Similarly your poor interpretation causes you to believe these are Hindu temples. It is simply wishful thinking and not more. I could perhaps tell you what they really are, I suppose.

roadrunner, do you always deny facts like this? Do you know that when you deny clear facts, it doesn't make you look very smart?

So I'm not a Pashtun? Then who am I? I'd like to know. Just because you are having issues with your questionable Pashtun 'ancestry' doesn't mean we Pashtuns would be suffering from the same.


All Bannuchis lived by the plough and spade, save the despised Hindus who had a monopoly of all trading and banking...

... In fact "Bannuchi" in its broadest sense now means all Muhammadans, and by a stretch even Hindus long domiciled within the limits of the irrigated tracts originally occupied by the Bannudzais...

Source: History and Settlement of Bannu: Excerpts from Gazetteer of the Bannu District, 1887

Before the partition of India on the dreadfully racist two-nation theory, an idea conceived by semi-literates and poets, by the way, the entire business sector of Bannu and Lakki Marwat was handled by Hindu Pashtuns. There are still some left and they represent probably 1% of the overall population. Ask any Bannuchi or Marwat and he'll tell you.

First you said that people from the IVC didn't migrate at all. Then I proved you wrong. Then you said that there are no Hindus in Bannu and you were again proven wrong. Then you said that you're an expert anthropologist yet you didn't show any of that. It makes me wonder why you're referred to as trollrunner. I would say you're a confused trollrunner looking for an identity. You've been confused by some notion that Punjabis are not an Indian people. You constantly go against facts and the truth.

[Wrayun]

It has repeatedly been told that all Pashtuns descend from one man (an Arab), it doesn't make it true.

I'm not totally disagreeing with you btw about it being central asian.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

^my reaction if I was a teenage scene chick.

ps, An Arab? Really....man. Troll harder.

[Michin Khel]

Clearly a failed response warrants such a reply.



Individual pictures of peasant labourers are not important.

There's some Indianness in the Punjab and Sindh. There also is some non Indianness. They're simply Punjabi or Sindhi, not Indian which is too broad a term.

The Punjabis have a set look which is somewhere in between the Pashtun and the Uttar Pradesh look.



India begins at the Indo=Pak border.

The Indic people is a linguistical grouping and means nothing.



Such stupidity I've only met before in Indian posters.

The IVC people did not uproot themselves and leave the Indus Valley.

They remained firmly where they were, though some wandered off into India.

What happened was a cultural shift.



If I showed you some light skinned Punjabis, then according to your logic this would be a good representation of Punjabi people.

I'm not wasting time on looking at silly little pictures that you pick to suit your argument.



It is very easy to claim Pashtunness on the internet.

It is silly chest-beating like a true ape.

They are not Hindu temples.

I can see why you think they are. Your knowledge is weak. It is spoonfed from sites that you have interpreted from an Indian mindset, thinking that the IVC people uprooted themselves like some biblical event.

[B]Similarly your poor interpretation causes you to believe these are Hindu temples. It is simply wishful thinking and not more. I could perhaps tell you what they really are, I suppose[B].

I cant believe, you are still sticking to your silly point. I belong to lakki marwat city, there are old houses of hindus in stahr bazaar, our old people tell us about them, in 1947 they were all forced to leave...Bannu was particularly famous for large number of hindus, there hindu temples still can be found in certain villages beside bannu city, if u want evidence then visit muslim bagh village near naurang, there is hindu temple there...go to lakki and bannu and see for yourself and ask people. my neighbours are shiekhs , they say they were hindus but accepted islam few years before partition.
Read bannu gazetter 1874 or check bannu or our afghan frontier in kitabatoon section written by english deputy commisioner of bannu edward..he has described hindus in bannu in detail.
But i know you will repeat same things like parrot that mind of bigot is like pupil the more light you throw on it the more it constricts.