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[Talal]

Guys lets hug.

That doesn't change the fact that the referendum was rigged or boycotted does it? Wali Khan in his book mentioned these things. He goes on to further consider Pakistan as a plan by the british to sideline the Soviets. As he writes

” In the ends, thus, one keeps coming back to the same conclusion that the British were keen on putting an Islamic halter round the socialist order in the north and were not prepared to permit any hurdle,Khudai Khidmatgars’ or whatever, in their way. In fact they were convinced that unless they removed all the nationalist and anti imperialist forces from their path would not be able to consummate their design.”

yes but the reasons behind are more important than the arguments because it is the motive you "assumed" is what your argument is based on whereas above it clearly says that as obedients of the Congress and thats why they had no objection to the referendum. you assumed something different, whereas in the context of this argument not only the pashtun majority favored Pakistan but KK's had no problems with the referendum other than the fact that they would lose credit.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

But they didn't. This is such a simple concept, I am surprised you can't wrap your head around it. The KK were the majority party, the boycotted the referendum, hence the largest party was out. Only the settled districts were allowed to vote, among them (after the boycotting) only 50.5 % voted for pakistan. This is not a clear majority by no means. In no world or political frame work is this legitimate.

[Talal]

But they didn't. This is such a simple concept, I am surprised you can't wrap your head around it. The KK were the majority party, the boycotted the referendum, hence the largest party was out. Only the settled districts were allowed to vote, among them (after the boycotting) only 50.5 % voted for pakistan. This is not a clear majority by no means. In no world or political frame work is this legitimate.

And yet Bacha Khan had no objections to holding the chief minister seat ?

It is a simple concept and your trying to twist it according to your twisted propaganda which yes makes little sense

Enough said we're done here

[BLS_1919v2.0]

And yet Bacha Khan had no objections to holding the chief minister seat ?

It is a simple concept and your trying to twist it according to your twisted propaganda which yes makes little sense

Enough said we're done here

How am I twisting it? You are the one who is. What I mentioned is a historical fact. What is so funny about you is that you quoted wali khan, but didn't fully mention the whole thing. He goes on to call Pakistan a british state whose objective was to cut off the soviets. That is half assing a statement.

Well as far as I know, after all was said and done....Bacha Khan then accepted Pakistan. What choice did he have? Britain and west supported it, it was their baby. I guess he then moved in and accepted the reality as such.
Buddy btw your the one posting propaganda for your dear pakistan, even second thread of yours is an article on Pakistan and how its going good for them. You should be a part of a pakistani PRAVDA...you'd do the job well.

[Talal]

How am I twisting it? You are the one who is. What I mentioned is a historical fact. What is so funny about you is that you quoted wali khan, but didn't fully mention the whole thing. He goes on to call Pakistan a british state whose objective was to cut off the soviets. That is half assing a statement.

Well as far as I know, after all was said and done....Bacha Khan then accepted Pakistan. What choice did he have? Britain and west supported it, it was their baby. I guess he then moved in and accepted the reality as such.
Buddy btw your the one posting propaganda for your dear pakistan, even second thread of yours is an article on Pakistan and how its going good for them. You should be a part of a pakistani PRAVDA...you'd do the job well.

because it was irrelevant to the subject at hand ? whatever purpose british had for Pakistan is irrelevant, the goals we set for ourselves matter. And yes we do have the honour of breaking down a super power, but much of that credit goes to the soviets themselves. Did Jinnah accept the prime ministership when in place of an independent muslim nation ? no because he knew he had the support of masses behind him. Bacha Khan has much respect in my heart and his treatment by the GoP is something i deeply frown upon but nonetheless the argument that Pashtuns are hostages to Pakistanis is wrong, and mere propaganda if it were so i would be the only guy from Pakistan vouching for it.

Your views are your views, you see history through your eyes i see through mine. so naturally we disagree but to say that the majority in Pakistan holds the same opinion as yours is indeed propaganda and i think you know that too.

As for my PRADA "propaganda", prove it as propaganda then we'll talk

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Credere, I never said I represent the views of every pashtun, but your propaganda or RAW agents and TTP is clear propaganda. Even kids in Pashtunkhwa can tell you it was ISI/Army's dirty hand in the region. So you are indulging in propaganda. Whether Jinnah accepted the PM is not of my concern, that is Indo-pak history, I am concerned with Pashtunkhwa/Afghanistan.

Every link you have posted has been pro-army, pro-pakistan. I have yet to see you post the ones critical. In fact when I even posted the video interview of wali of swat and aman tehrik in peshawar blaming the army for the talibanization of swat, you are your swatithebrave(so-called) called me a troll. I am waiting for any counter-info. You are still going with your party-line.. so that is propaganda. Your so called proof for it was a big joke, since the updated version basically questioned the premise of the anonymous agent. That is propaganda.

[Talal]

Credere, I never said I represent the views of every pashtun, but your propaganda or RAW agents and TTP is clear propaganda. Even kids in Pashtunkhwa can tell you it was ISI/Army's dirty hand in the region. So you are indulging in propaganda. Whether Jinnah accepted the PM is not of my concern, that is Indo-pak history, I am concerned with Pashtunkhwa/Afghanistan.

Every link you have posted has been pro-army, pro-pakistan. I have yet to see you post the ones critical. In fact when I even posted the video interview of wali of swat and aman tehrik in peshawar blaming the army for the talibanization of swat, you are your swatithebrave(so-called) called me a troll. I am waiting for any counter-info. You are still going with your party-line.. so that is propaganda. Your so called proof for it was a big joke, since the updated version basically questioned the premise of the anonymous agent. That is propaganda.

Reason for the Jinnah example is that he refused that because he wanted Independace, if pashtuns wanted independance from Pakistan there would have atleast been a struggle for it. Thats the difference between you and me i guess i dont listen to kids when it comes to matters of national security and i've already quoted a US official on that matter.

And here in lies the folly in your arguments you want me to be critcial yet you criticze a memeber just because he puts swati in his name and is supporting Pakistan. By that logic you would have a lot of us to go up against. And yes i am pro-army and pro-Pakistan because thats what is required of me as a Pakistani. Pakistan is my home, and id be damned if you expect me to turn on my brothers.

Did you read the article i posted ? or do you want me to share it here. The same Jirga that you so excitedly quoted was the same one that invited the Pakistani army with open arms into swat. why did you fail to quote that ?

As for the agent, i quoted an "intelligence official" and the dude you quoted added his bit after the article had been brought up by the indian media and therefore to avoid scrutiny they added the opinion of an "analyst" and even he didnt say that India wasn't involved .. go read it again

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Reason for the Jinnah example is that he refused that because he wanted Independace, if pashtuns wanted independance from Pakistan there would have atleast been a struggle for it. Thats the difference between you and me i guess i dont listen to kids when it comes to matters of national security and i've already quoted a US official on that matter.

And here in lies the folly in your arguments you want me to be critcial yet you criticze a memeber just because he puts swati in his name and is supporting Pakistan. By that logic you would have a lot of us to go up against. And yes i am pro-army and pro-Pakistan because thats what is required of me as a Pakistani. Pakistan is my home, and id be damned if you expect me to turn on my brothers.

Did you read the article i posted ? or do you want me to share it here. The same Jirga that you so excitedly quoted was the same one that invited the Pakistani army with open arms into swat. why did you fail to quote that ?

As for the agent, i quoted an "intelligence official" and the dude you quoted added his bit after the article had been brought up by the indian media and therefore to avoid scrutiny they added the opinion of an "analyst" and even he didnt say that India wasn't involved .. go read it again

Who was Faqir i ipi? He fought against pakistan and was not for it. So there were people...however our elders unlike the muslim leaguers did not lick the behind of Britain. So for our lack of loyalty to Britain we were forcefully divided and never allowed the option of re unification with Afghanistan or pashtunistan. There is no logical way that had these options been put forward that any pashtun would ever even look at pakistan and India as an option let alone show any love towards it.
Obviously they did, they wanted ISI to clean the mess (btw the same article considered the previous operations as drama - see the articles I posted in previous threads). However in the video of the aman tehrik, they clearly blamed Pakistan establishment and ISI. It is there on record. Also the video of Wali of swat. That man was is one of the biggest if not the biggest pakistani in swat valley. Ask anyone who knows that area and they will tell of his love for this state called Pakistan. Even he called out the army on their mess in swat. Now you continue overlooking these things for your own motivations.
There is a scholarly debate on the motivations of Jinnah and his wanting of independence. Some scholars contend that he used it as a bargaining chip; there is a book on Jinnah which quoted him saying that Pakistan was a mistake...when I find it Ill post it.

That is speculation on your part that it was India behind it. I posted people within swat that blamed ISI and army. This is so blatantly obvious there. You are wasting my time and everyone elses by pandering this state propaganda line.

[khyaal]

And why, btw, the Babara massacre in which 700 people were killed on the spot ? Btw, in Jalianwala bagh incident only 434 people had been killed by the orders of General Dyer.

And what about the Hyderabad tribunal case against the NAP leadership?

[Talal]

Who was Faqir i ipi? He fought against pakistan and was not for it. So there were people...however our elders unlike the muslim leaguers did not lick the behind of Britain. So for our lack of loyalty to Britain we were forcefully divided and never allowed the option of re unification with Afghanistan or pashtunistan. There is no logical way that had these options been put forward that any pashtun would ever even look at pakistan and India as an option let alone show any love towards it.
Obviously they did, they wanted ISI to clean the mess (btw the same article considered the previous operations as drama - see the articles I posted in previous threads). However in the video of the aman tehrik, they clearly blamed Pakistan establishment and ISI. It is there on record. Also the video of Wali of swat. That man was is one of the biggest if not the biggest pakistani in swat valley. Ask anyone who knows that area and they will tell of his love for this state called Pakistan. Even he called out the army on their mess in swat. Now you continue overlooking these things for your own motivations.
There is a scholarly debate on the motivations of Jinnah and his wanting of independence. Some scholars contend that he used it as a bargaining chip; there is a book on Jinnah which quoted him saying that Pakistan was a mistake...when I find it Ill post it.

That is speculation on your part that it was India behind it. I posted people within swat that blamed ISI and army. This is so blatantly obvious there. You are wasting my time and everyone elses by pandering this state propaganda line.

i was hoping you would resort your chest thumping and false pride. so according to you our elders were as you so eloquentally put "British Butt lickers", a man who turned down the premiership of the biggest nation on the face of this earth to achieve independance for his people was a butt-licker. those people who died for the cause of Pakistan, Pashtuns, Punjabis those were british butt lickers ? your calling my ancestors that ?

Let me remind you that it was Bacha Khan who was in congress till the bitter end, it was your KK's that were british..whatver you call them. You resorting to such dergatory language for millions who laid down their lives is as shameless as you can get. I didnt expect you could stoop any lower.

Like i said go ask swatis infact we have swatis on this forum ask THEM, and these were the same people who got their asses handed to them by the talibs and now that we kicked them out they are calling foul on us ? your quoting people who changed their statement in a MONTH, what revealtion did they have that made them change their minds in a month. DIdnt they know before that this was a drama, no because then their necks were in the hands of taliban

What is baltantly obvious the world has seen it, US is using the success ops that Pakistani Army conducted as a MODEL for their ops. Just because its too hard for you to digest our success you call it a drama ? Why dont you go fight this "drama" then, i assure you they will alter your views signifcantly

[BLS_1919v2.0]

i was hoping you would resort your chest thumping and false pride. so according to you our elders were as you so eloquentally put "British Butt lickers", a man who turned down the premiership of the biggest nation on the face of this earth to achieve independance for his people was a butt-licker. those people who died for the cause of Pakistan, Pashtuns, Punjabis those were british butt lickers ? your calling my ancestors that ?

Let me remind you that it was Bacha Khan who was in congress till the bitter end, it was your KK's that were british..whatver you call them. You resorting to such dergatory language for millions who laid down their lives is as shameless as you can get. I didnt expect you could stoop any lower.

Like i said go ask swatis infact we have swatis on this forum ask THEM, and these were the same people who got their asses handed to them by the talibs and now that we kicked them out they are calling foul on us ? your quoting people who changed their statement in a MONTH, what revealtion did they have that made them change their minds in a month. DIdnt they know before that this was a drama, no because then their necks were in the hands of taliban

What is baltantly obvious the world has seen it, US is using the success ops that Pakistani Army conducted as a MODEL for their ops. Just because its too hard for you to digest our success you call it a drama ? Why dont you go fight this "drama" then, i assure you they will alter your views signifcantly

Which muslim leaguer laid down their lives? They sided with britain till the bitter end. Stop twisting history. When my areas is part of those that are in a mess (though not at the scale of swat) then I assure you if you were from our areas, your views would be altered. Get off your holier than thou stand. And I was talking about the Aman tehrik and Wali of swat..you have an issue with that view point, confront them. They are no small cheese, people know them.

[Talal]

Which muslim leaguer laid down their lives? They sided with britain till the bitter end. Stop twisting history. When my areas is part of those that are in a mess (though not at the scale of swat) then I assure you if you were from our areas, your views would be altered. Get off your holier than thou stand. And I was talking about the Aman tehrik and Wali of swat..you have an issue with that view point, confront them. They are no small cheese, people know them.

Every muslim leaguer ! dude stop BSing here and go read up history for once.

Take this and shut it i got plenty more where that came from

Swati women want army to stay

ISLAMABAD, Feb 4: Womenfolk in the Swat valley are still haunted by the Taliban rule and they want the Pakistan Army to stay unless full peace and prosperity returned to the area.

“Once the Army is withdrawn, things will start to deteriorate” – is the feeling of a common Swati woman, concludes Dr Anita Weiss, a researcher from the United States while delivering a talk on: “Crisis and reconciliation in Swat through the eyes of women” at the National Commission on the Status of Women, in Islamabad on Thursday.

Dr Weiss, head of the Department of International Studies at the University of Oregon, toured the Swat valley and held in-depth discussions with the Swati women, and concluded that they [Swati women] also want the government to take bold steps for the revival of rural economy of the valley so that they can earn livelihood and raise their families.

The women of Swat would prefer job opportunities to earn money to buy food rather than donated food, she said.

Dr Weiss stated that despite traumatic experience, the morale of women especially young girls was quite high, and they want to carry out studies to become useful citizens of the country. Swati girls when asked about their careers, desire to fly aircraft, she said.

Among the girls, there is a renewed commitment for education and spirit to fight back the Talibanization. They also want the civil society to form women cooperatives and groups to assist them in setting up business and accessing the markets, she said.

Dr Weiss’s talk was well-attended by people from the civil society. The Chairperson of the Commission on the Status of Women, Ms Anis Haroon welcomed Dr Weiss, who is also a member of the Research Advisory Board of the Commission. Currently, she was working on a research project on the issue of interpreting Islam, modernity and women’s rights in Pakistan.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

No credere none of the major muslim leaguers did, stop wasting our time. Neither iqbal, nor liaqat nor jinnah. You are just an emotional kid ranting. Now read this
PESHAWAR: Additional secretary-general of the Awami National Party (ANP), Hashim Babar, Saturday said military establishment was the major hurdle in reforms in Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), which feels that it will weaken its sponsored militants in the tribal areas.

“The military establishment has decided not to allow President Asif Ali Zardari to introduce reforms in FATA, as they have provided sanctuaries to their strategic assets in North Waziristan,” he said while speaking to an Amn Jirga called by Amn Tehreek, a conglomeration of political parties and civil society organisations here at Nishtar Hall.

Representatives of political parties, civil society members, lawyers, doctors, students, minorities, tribal leaders and elders of peace committees participated in the moot.

Hasim Babar said their fight was not with Taliban but with those forces that were behind them and were providing support to them. “As the enemy is within us we have to take steps cautiously. We have to form a national front which include people from all walks of life and then make a joint strategy to deal with the enemy,” he said.

“Taliban have also political face in shape of Jammat-e-Islami (JI), Jamiat Ulema-i-Islam Fazl (JUI-F) and the military establishment having political mindset,” he said and added for their ‘strategic depth policy’ they have killed millions of Pakhtuns.

Hashim Babar said after 9/11 General Musharraf-led government provided shelter to Al-Qaeda leadership and Taliban in North and South Waziristan. He said the entire country was engulfed in terrorism but not a single school was burnt in other parts of the country and all the education institutes on Pakhtun’s land were destroyed.

Senator Mir Hasil Bizenjo, senior vice president National Party, in his speech came down hard on the establishment, saying it brought all the criminals together and made a force, Taliban.
Pointing towards Punjab-dominated establishment, he alleged,” Haqqanis are still their blue-eyed and the security agencies are behind the entire massacre in the country”

He said the establishment played havoc with the Pakhtuns of Afghanistan and Pakistan, adding that for them in Afghanistan the Taliban were good but they were not ready to accept their presence in Punjab.

The Baloch nationalist said the military establishment had developed a mentality that they can defeat America in Afghanistan and the moment NATO forces will leave Afghanistan they will capture the country through their own pampered extremist forces.

He appealed to all democratic forces to join hands against the extremist forces and demand dismantling the terrorists’ networks be it in Muridke, Swat, Waziristan or Quetta.

Later, a joint declaration was presented by Jamila Gilani, an ANP member of the National Assembly. The declaration termed the earlier ‘Peshawar Declaration’ presented by Amn Tehrik a historic document for durable peace and end to terrorism in the Pakhtun belt.

The Jirga appealed to federal and provincial governments, armed forces and its secret agencies to act upon the recommendations of the declaration. Besides, those individuals and institutions who were responsible for patronizing terrorism and religious extremism in the country should made a public apology.

The Jirga also appealed to all state institutions to remain in their constitutional ambit, adding that defence and foreign policy formulation was the responsibility of democratic government.

The declaration also demanded that all the funds that came in the name of terrorism must be spent in FATA and NWFP. The Jirga strongly condemned the recent statement of the Punjab chief minister, saying that PML-N was a supporter of Taliban. The jirga also demanded that killers of a student of NWFP University of Engineering must be punished and Islami Jamiat Talaba should be banned.

The Jirga also demanded representation of Pakhtuns in the delegation that will soon hold meetings with US government.

Prominent among the speakers were Mukhtar Baacha, Amin Khattak, Lateef Afridi, Dr Said Alam Mahsud, Idress Kamal, MNA Jamila Gilani, Rukhshinda Naz, Syed Ayub Shah, Hameed Ullah Zahid, Zia uddin Yousafzai, Zahid Hussain, Tariq Afghan, Shahab Khattak, Dr. Alam Yousafzai.

[Talal]

^ i am tired of your switching topics you said swatis didnt like army .BAM there is an article, that talks about an independent survey. and quoting ANP ? the same party whose minister Bilour was quoted as saying " its just some people who died, whats the fuss ? " This is about the recent deaths in Abot. protests

and now shut it BLS dont reply no more you got nothing. dont waste my time anymore, go do something else

[BLS_1919v2.0]

This was the Aman tehrik which has members from many political parties. Credere you are a little kid in a candy store, no thought process nothing...when you post garbage info you expect us to go along. Now your reply is shut it. Now I will continue, if you want to leave, by all means go...I hear pakdefence forums caters to your lot.