Egypts Salafis continue to embarrass themselves

[randolph85]

They continue to embarrass themselves by participating with these atheists even while they kill muslims and try to erase islam from egypt. these salafis "object" but they still participate and endorse the legitimacy of the coup.

http://news.yahoo.com/egypts-nour-party-rejects-move-against-religious-parties-190101014.html

By Shadia Nasralla

CAIRO (Reuters) - Egypt's second biggest Islamist party, Nour, on Friday rejected proposed changes to the constitution that would outlaw parties founded on religious grounds, and called the move a "sword drawn" against Islamists.

The proposal, made during meetings of the constitutional committee this week but not yet formally approved, came days after a Cairo court separately banned the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt's dominant Islamist force.

"It's wrong to blame the whole Islamist current for the mistakes of the Muslim Brotherhood," said Nour Party head Younes Makhyoun in a statement. "We reject this article completely because it is discriminatory and exclusionary.

"By what right does this article aim a drawn sword at some parties? Are we going to put an article in the constitution that bans founding parties on liberal, secular, socialist or Nasserist grounds?"

Islamist political parties formed after the downfall of veteran autocrat Hosni Mubarak in 2011 dominated elections, and the Brotherhood's Mohamed Mursi became Egypt's first freely elected president.

But after a year in power, huge demonstrations against his rule prompted the army to oust him. Security forces have launched a crackdown on the Brotherhood in which hundreds of Islamists were shot dead on the streets of Cairo and thousands more, including Mursi, arrested.

Any move to ban religious parties would redraw Egypt's political map and turn the clock back to the days under Mubarak when Islamists were not allowed to form political parties.

NOUR WALKS OUT

Nour, founded shortly after the popular uprising against Mubarak, backed Mursi's overthrow in July by signing up to a road map for Egypt's political transition that included amending the constitution and setting a time frame for new elections.

But earlier this month, Nour, whose representative is one of only two Islamists on the 50-member constitutional committee, walked out of a meeting to protest against moves to curb the influence of Islam in state affairs.

Moves to outlaw Islamist movements and parties have raised fears in Egypt that supporters who see little hope for a democratic future may resort to violence.

Militant groups have long been active in the Sinai Peninsula bordering Israel and the Palestinian Gaza Strip, a region where central authority is weak and attacks on security forces have spiked since Mursi's ouster.

More than 100 members of the security forces have been killed in Sinai since the overthrow, and on Friday a policeman was shot dead by gunmen in the city of El-Arish in the north of the region, state television reported.

In a separate incident in Sinai, an armored personnel carrier was hit by an improvised bomb on a road near Sheikh Zuweid which injured one soldier and triggered shooting in which one man died, according to state news agency MENA.

MENA also said two explosive devices detonated near police check points on the outskirts of Cairo, wounding two policemen.

And in Alexandria, several hundred pro-Mursi protesters took to the streets and clashed with residents, leaving at least five injured with birdshot and gunshot wounds, medical sources said.

(Additional reporting by Tom Perry; Editing by Mike Collett-White)

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Thesr guys are only a small fraction of Egyptian salafis. Most salafis in egypt abstained from shirk ( democracy)

[randolph85]

Thesr guys are only a small fraction of Egyptian salafis. Most salafis in egypt abstained from shirk ( democracy)

but these were the second most popular party in the elections behind the ikhwan, these were not exactly small numbers.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

but these were the second most popular party in the elections behind the ikhwan, these were not exactly small numbers.

True. But you need to understand that some salafis who beleive in democracy voted for ikhwan while some non salafis voted for nour party.

Its not like all salafis vote for nour. Besides, salafism in egypt is quite similar to salafism in Pakistan. Its a brand. Jamaatu dawa also claims to be a salafi party like jamiath ahlulhadeeth. Yet many pakistani salafis distance themselves from these groups.

[randolph85]

True. But you need to understand that some salafis who beleive in democracy voted for ikhwan while some non salafis voted for nour party.

Its not like all salafis vote for nour. Besides, salafism in egypt is quite similar to salafism in Pakistan. Its a brand. Jamaatu dawa also claims to be a salafi party like jamiath ahlulhadeeth. Yet many pakistani salafis distance themselves from these groups.

if its a brand to you, then so is the ikhwan of rival mujahadin groups in afg. i find it hard to believe that any significant number of non salafis would vote for nour and unless there is far more salafis in egypt than i think there is, i would say nour got most of the salafi votes.

i don't doubt that some salafis voted for ikhwan but no ikhwan would vote for salafis. even while trying to disown the ikhwan ideology, many salafi types are influenced by the likes of qutb. salafis are influenced by the ikhwan but not the other way around.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Partisanship is prohibited in Islam. Even if the parliament of a country would be free from shirk and kufr, muslims are still not allowed to create political parties.

Lets imagine an Islamic parliament where mps are not elected via normal democratic procedure but through councils based on merits, still it would be inpermissible to participate on behalf of a party. Because if the party decides against something which is haqq, you as a partisan would be obliged to remain loyal to your party. Thats why hizbiyyah/partisanship is prohibited.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

if its a brand to you, then so is the ikhwan of rival mujahadin groups in afg. i find it hard to believe that any significant number of non salafis would vote for nour and unless there is far more salafis in egypt than i think there is, i would say nour got most of the salafi votes.

i don't doubt that some salafis voted for ikhwan but no ikhwan would vote for salafis. even while trying to disown the ikhwan ideology, many salafi types are influenced by the likes of qutb. salafis are influenced by the ikhwan but not the other way around.

Qutb was an old school ikhwani. The old school was closer to salafis. Modern Ikhwanis are like christian-democrats in Europe.

Egypt is the biggest exporter of Salafism for the last two decades. Many Western salafis are from Egypt. Even Sayyaf is inspired by egyptian salafism.

[randolph85]

Partisanship is prohibited in Islam. Even if the parliament of a country would be free from shirk and kufr, muslims are still not allowed to create political parties.

Lets imagine an Islamic parliament where mps are not elected via normal democratic procedure but through councils based on merits, still it would be inpermissible to participate on behalf of a party. Because if the party decides against something which is haqq, you as a partisan would be obliged to remain loyal to your party. Thats why hizbiyyah/partisanship is prohibited.

aren't all of our madhabs based on partisanship? if political party division is outlawed, wouldn't mujahadin group partisanship also be outlawed? along the border of pak/afg, how many divided groups do we have? does supporting one make you an enemy of others?


i don't know why a partisan would be obliged to do anything, if this system that he is participating is was truly haqq then there would be no obligation to be loyal to anything that goes against Allah.

salafis who are against democracy have this idea that democracy and islam that people try to reconcile would go against islam. my idea of islamic democracy is the quran and sunnah being the law and the muslim population voting for the amir who can best uphold these laws.

[randolph85]

Qutb was an old school ikhwani. The old school was closer to salafis. Modern Ikhwanis are like christian-democrats in Europe.

Egypt is the biggest exporter of Salafism for the last two decades. Many Western salafis are from Egypt. Even Sayyaf is inspired by egyptian salafism.

Egypt is the biggest exporter of salafism in terms of high profile people like zawahiri, not numbers.

when these salafis have a bigger impact abroad than they did at home, it tells you how weak they really are among their own.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

aren't all of our madhabs based on partisanship?

Madhab is derived from the word dhahaba. Which means way/departure.

A madhab is a particular way in education. Its foundations are a set of principles how to derive rulings.

Difference in principles result into different legal rulings. Hence the differences among different madhahib.

When people treat a madhab like a sect or a cult, they fall into partisanship.


Madhabs make the process of learning easier for laymen. This is why we need madhahib.

if political party division is outlawed, wouldn't mujahadin group partisanship also be outlawed?

In Jihad there must be one Imam. When there are different groups with different leaders, corruption and disorder will be the result.

along the border of pak/afg, how many divided groups do we have? does supporting one make you an enemy of others?

Generally, there is just one main group, the Taliban. We do have Hizbe Islami but they are not a legitimate Islamic movement because they fight for power and money like they always have.

On the other hand, those small factions in tribal area, they are not really engaged in Jihad. They are small militant groups who don't even have scholars among them. Some are created by ISI others by other parties.

The main group is TTP and their imam is Mehsud and gave baya to Mullah Umar so basically they are the same organization.

You may quote media claiming they are not the same, but when both Afghan Taliban and TTP representatives say they are one, we accept them as one.

i don't know why a partisan would be obliged to do anything, if this system that he is participating is was truly haqq then there would be no obligation to be loyal to anything that goes against Allah.

Political parties in parliaments are there in the form of a faction. In most democratic parliaments there are different parties and if the party wants to support a proposal, the entire party must vote in its favor. If a member votes against it, then the party dissolves within the parliament. We have had such divisions at least 3 times in the past 10 years in Holland for example.

salafis who are against democracy have this idea that democracy and islam that people try to reconcile would go against islam. my idea of islamic democracy is the quran and sunnah being the law and the muslim population voting for the amir who can best uphold these laws.

I don't want to offend you, but in the other thread, there is a picture with a few Arabic words and you can't read those. Why would your idea of what Islam and democracy is matter when you can't even Quran?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Egypt is the biggest exporter of salafism in terms of high profile people like zawahiri, not numbers.

Dr Ayman al Zwahiri is not considered a Salafi by most Salafis around the world.

He is a medical doctor with absolutely no formal education in Islam.

Main exporters of Salafis in Egypt are Muhammad Hasaan, Abu Ishaaq al Huweny, Muhammad Saeed Raslaan etc. They have millions of followers in Egypt and outside Egypt.

Likewise there are many other salafi scholars in Egypt who are like mountains compared to a doctor like Zawahiri.

when these salafis have a bigger impact abroad than they did at home, it tells you how weak they really are among their own.

You have no idea about how big the imact of Salafi scholars was in egypt in the last 40 years. Please ask Egyptians older than 50 years to explain to you.

[randolph85]

Madhab is derived from the word dhahaba. Which means way/departure.

A madhab is a particular way in education. Its foundations are a set of principles how to derive rulings.

Difference in principles result into different legal rulings. Hence the differences among different madhahib.

When people treat a madhab like a sect or a cult, they fall into partisanship.


Madhabs make the process of learning easier for laymen. This is why we need madhahib.

these madhabs are a cause of division in matters of faith no different than political parties are in matters of governance which dictate the matters of faith.

In Jihad there must be one Imam. When there are different groups with different leaders, corruption and disorder will be the result.

if mullah omar is the commander of the ttp as the ttp proclaims, then there should be no conflict within this group. instead, these idiot ttp are fighting each other and using the name of omar for "street cred" while omar who refuses to show himself, says nothing about these important issues besides some eid messages which sound like they were written by an isi copywriter.

Generally, there is just one main group, the Taliban. We do have Hizbe Islami but they are not a legitimate Islamic movement because they fight for power and money like they always have.

On the other hand, those small factions in tribal area, they are not really engaged in Jihad. They are small militant groups who don't even have scholars among them. Some are created by ISI others by other parties.

The main group is TTP and their imam is Mehsud and gave baya to Mullah Umar so basically they are the same organization.

You may quote media claiming they are not the same, but when both Afghan Taliban and TTP representatives say they are one, we accept them as one.

if the hezb is not a legit movement, than was their 80s jihad illegitimate? i don't think so.


if the ttp takes omar as their leader, than the sins of the ttp fall on omar and the afghan taliban. this is more than the ttp being "incompetent" but when they bomb a funeral, or anywhere else where they KNOW civilians are gathered but still go ahead with the attack, mullah omar is responsible for these deaths. i don't like the afghan taliban but i respect them, the ttp are absolute **** to me and if omar sanctions the actions of the ttp then they are both **** to me.

Political parties in parliaments are there in the form of a faction. In most democratic parliaments there are different parties and if the party wants to support a proposal, the entire party must vote in its favor. If a member votes against it, then the party dissolves within the parliament. We have had such divisions at least 3 times in the past 10 years in Holland for example.

you are looking at this through the lense of traditional western atheist politics, these rules do not apply in afghanistan.

I don't want to offend you, but in the other thread, there is a picture with a few Arabic words and you can't read those. Why would your idea of what Islam and democracy is matter when you can't even Quran?

no offense taken. i was born in the west as a child of kabuli refugee's, not exactly the recipe of a fully cultured afghan muslim. my idea of islam and democracy is that the law of the land is islam and this islam is reconciled by all sects and madhabs who will be locked in a ****in room for months if that has to happen until we agree on what kind of islam we want to follow. our amir will be elected by who can uphold shariah, nothing more nothing less.

i can't read quran in arabic, i can't read pashto or dari. that pretty much makes me the same as most afghans.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

these madhabs are a cause of division in matters of faith no different than political parties are in matters of governance which dictate the matters of faith.

Wrong. Madhabs are established to ease the process of learning in our daily practices like tahara ( ablusion), salah(prayer), Zakah ( poordue) etc.

No book of fiqh ( madhab) teaches you what to believe.

if mullah omar is the commander of the ttp as the ttp proclaims, then there should be no conflict within this group. instead, these idiot ttp are fighting each other and using the name of omar for "street cred" while omar who refuses to show himself, says nothing about these important issues besides some eid messages which sound like they were written by an isi copywriter.

The infighting you are talking about is among some commanders and the main body of TTP. Incidents in the tribal area are magnified in the media to show TTP as weak and internally divided. You use this as a premise to judge the entire Taliban movement.

Inform yourself about the realities on the ground and then discuss them.

if the hezb is not a legit movement, than was their 80s jihad illegitimate? i don't think so.

Hizb killed many inncoent people for the sake of their political interests.

We can speak about the party in general, however individual people who received weapons to fight the Russians, Allah judges each and every one of them for their knowledge and actions. So we cannot say that because Hizb is a criminal organization, the people who faught under hizb are therefore not real mujahiden.

if the ttp takes omar as their leader, than the sins of the ttp fall on omar and the afghan taliban.

Yes, thats true.

this is more than the ttp being "incompetent" but when they bomb a funeral, or anywhere else where they KNOW civilians are gathered but still go ahead with the attack, mullah omar is responsible for these deaths

Both Afghan Taliban and TTP have killed civilians during their operations.

Likewise, Khalid ibn Walid radiallahu anhu killed people. Prophet Muhammad sal allahu alayhi wasalam said about this, that he is free from Khalids actions because Khalid erred.

. i don't like the afghan taliban but i respect them, the ttp are absolute **** to me and if omar sanctions the actions of the ttp then they are both **** to me.

When you can't express yourself without using profanity, your views shouldn't be respected.

you are looking at this through the lense of traditional western atheist politics, these rules do not apply in afghanistan.

You are out of useful things to say.

no offense taken. i was born in the west as a child of kabuli refugee's, not exactly the recipe of a fully cultured afghan muslim. my idea of islam and democracy is that the law of the land is islam and this islam is reconciled by all sects and madhabs who will be locked in a ****in room for months if that has to happen until we agree on what kind of islam we want to follow. our amir will be elected by who can uphold shariah, nothing more nothing less.

i can't read quran in arabic, i can't read pashto or dari. that pretty much makes me the same as most afghans.

Most people shouldn't speak about Islam at all. including you. Stop making excuses for you lack of commitment to being a muslim. Be a man.

[randolph85]

Wrong. Madhabs are established to ease the process of learning in our daily practices like tahara ( ablusion), salah(prayer), Zakah ( poordue) etc.

No book of fiqh ( madhab) teaches you what to believe.

every division is created to "ease" someone into seperation

The infighting you are talking about is among some commanders and the main body of TTP. Incidents in the tribal area are magnified in the media to show TTP as weak and internally divided. You use this as a premise to judge the entire Taliban movement.

Inform yourself about the realities on the ground and then discuss them.

you just said "and the main body of the ttp" thus admitting the broken structure of this satanic group and then accuse the media of magnifying these differences lol

Hizb killed many inncoent people for the sake of their political interests.

We can speak about the party in general, however individual people who received weapons to fight the Russians, Allah judges each and every one of them for their knowledge and actions. So we cannot say that because Hizb is a criminal organization, the people who faught under hizb are therefore not real mujahiden.

so you are saying hezb is criminal organisation but the people who fought jihad under its banner are mujahids? you realize the beef you have against the hezb can be equally applied to the talibs, right?

Both Afghan Taliban and TTP have killed civilians during their operations.

Likewise, Khalid ibn Walid radiallahu anhu killed people. Prophet Muhammad sal allahu alayhi wasalam said about this, that he is free from Khalids actions because Khalid erred.

afghan taliban are stupid and careless with the lives of afghans in their operations, but they do not generally target funerals, masjids, or markets. the ttp on the other hand target these areas and boast about their attacks.

When you can't express yourself without using profanity, your views shouldn't be respected.

ttp murders civilians intentionally .... respect and defend them

guy on internet forum says a bad word.... views are no longer respected

LOL

Most people shouldn't speak about Islam at all. including you.

ahhh yes, a salafi who is the boss of who should and should not speak about islam. how lucky we are to have such people like you to curse the ones who use profanity online and defend the butchers of muslims in the real world.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

You are unable to read a paragraph of Quran and you judge people who spent years studying Islam and who sacrifice their own lives for Islam.

Sacrifice some of your time learning Islam.

Use your time for beneficial purposes. You wont obtain paradise with silly and childish posts on a forum ridiculing people because they sacrifice their lives for Allah.