Bride Kidnapping in Kyrgyzstan

[RevolutionThroughReason]

thats where I was born and have lived. WE lived in a refugee camp in parachinar for awhile.
But that should not matter.

It does , that brings into your attempt to claim authority into question.

[faye]

It almost sounds like you wished you lived there. you cant attract the opposite sex so the kidnapping tactic sounds good to you.

havi--> "very innnnnteeeeerrrrresssssssting" while looking for tickets to the Kyrzyg capital

is that an example of ad-hominem? or merely a personal attack?

[khushal]

Not False at all, even Admin Khan corroborates my statement.

nice try ..your Khushal says so, has been denied by others who probably have more time in Afghanistan than you do.

Most of the Ghazni Kharotan have been transferred to Ghazni at the Turn of the Century; The Kharotan are not that powerful in Ghazni anymore; they were powerful more a few hundred years ago.

Now I'm not saying a tribe won't try to fight back, but let's say a Kuchi comes , steals a Zazai girl and then his karawan comes to a Hotak area and asks for nanawatai, it will happen. And no matter how many threats a Zazai will make; the Hotak are powerful enough to find them off EASILY. So they can't enforce any law, only try to get revenge. This is not , this is bruised ego. so this would not necessarily dissuade some something like kidnapping. It depends on how powerful the clans are.

you are wrong and several forum members have confirmed that you are. Your rose tinted ideas of Pashtun Morality, don't exist

Which members has said Im wrong, let them speak.

You are wrong again.
Your statement about the theoritical kidnapping of the kochi kidnapping from Tribe A and then goes to a powerfull Tribe B. Your aying that Tribe A has no recourse because Tribe A cant challenge Tribe B. You are wrong. Tribe B will protect the Kochi but only for talks. Tribe A has the right to ask for compensation from the Kochi and Tribe B has to abide by what is right. Tribe B wont just protect a criminal, Tribe B in this situation is to ensure that "zalum" does not occur. That is pashtunwali but people dont always follow it and you cant blame pashtunwali code for peoples greed and arrogance. Sure if people see an opportunity to get away with something, they will take it, but thats in all societies.

If Tribe B does not ensure what is right, it will be regarded as baighyrata that it has given sanction to a criminal and did not do enough to encourage a peaceful settlement. The consequences of that will be remembered and there is a danger that Tribe A will react.

[khushal]

is that an example of ad-hominem? or merely a personal attack?

we are not engaged in debate so why would that be ad hominem?

Im just messing with him.

[khushal]

It does , that brings into your attempt to claim authority into question.

I do not consider myself an authority but I have not seen this practice widespread nor acceptable as you claim. So from my experience, your claims do not make sense. I was only asking for proof of why you say such things. I mean you would not say them unless you know for sure right, so tell us how you were convinced so we also can be convinced.

[faye]

khushal, i am in the process of learning what things like logic, reason, red/blue/green herrings and ad-hominim are all about.
i was asking revo. you wouldn't know anything

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Which members has said Im wrong, let them speak.

You are wrong again.
Your statement about the theoritical kidnapping of the kochi kidnapping from Tribe A and then goes to a powerfull Tribe B. Your aying that Tribe A has no recourse because Tribe A cant challenge Tribe B. You are wrong. Tribe B will protect the Kochi but only for talks. Tribe A has the right to ask for compensation from the Kochi and Tribe B has to abide by what is right. Tribe B wont just protect a criminal, Tribe B in this situation is to ensure that "zalum" does not occur. That is pashtunwali but people dont always follow it and you cant blame pashtunwali code for peoples greed and arrogance. Sure if people see an opportunity to get away with something, they will take it, but thats in all societies.

If Tribe B does not ensure what is right, it will be regarded as baighyrata that it has given sanction to a criminal and did not do enough to encourage a peaceful settlement. The consequences of that will be remembered and there is a danger that Tribe A will react.

do you not read the thread, DaZahroJam, Hakim/Subhan, Admin Khan himself you are confused.



by the way I made an inadvertent typing error; I said that Kharotan were transferred to Ghazni, what I meant to say they were transferred to KUNDUZ out of Ghazni. The most powerful Ghaznichi Kharotan, the Nasher/Qazi Khel people are in Kunduz. Hotakan are also transfers to Ghazni, we're actually originally from Qandahar and Zabul a couple of Hundred years ago.

I can blame Pashtunwali code; because its these customs are what allow such things to take place

Your attempt to make Pashtuns and their customs seem moral is ridiculous. This isn't to say Pashtun customs are WHOLLY immoral but there are clearly some serious problems in how we do things VERY SERIOUS.

[khushal]

Sad but true. Tribal backings at times is like a gang backing you.

huge difference admina khana. Pashtun tribes follow a code. the code ensures that "zelum" does not happen. When the code is not folowed, then the prevention of "zelum" is not ensured. Your tribe backing you is kin backing you. kin help one another out just because they are kin and want nothing in return. REspect is earned by being there for your kin in time of need.

gangs operate to instill fear in people for profit. If it makes business sense they will back you, if it does not, they will sacrifice you. When the law comes gang members will turn on each other to save their own skin. No one really cares for one another. Its all about fear and who is most violent. That is what gives you repect.

[khushal]

khushal, i am in the process of learning what things like logic, reason, red/blue/green herrings and ad-hominim are all about.
i was asking revo. you wouldn't know anything

then ask him. why did you responded to my post. are you high again.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

huge difference admina khana. Pashtun tribes follow a code. the code ensures that "zelum" does not happen. When the code is not folowed, then the prevention of "zelum" is not ensured. Your tribe backing you is kin backing you. kin help one another out just because they are kin and want nothing in return. REspect is earned by being there for your kin in time of need.

gangs operate to instill fear in people for profit. If it makes business sense they will back you, if it does not, they will sacrifice you. When the law comes gang members will turn on each other to save their own skin. No one really cares for one another. Its all about fear and who is most violent. That is what gives you repect.

hahahaha .....you're trying to talk Admin Khan down .....so you can redeem your failed argument


this debate is over .

[faye]

then ask him. why did you responded to my post. are you high again.

flatcola, i am always on a natural high stop being so jealous.

[khushal]

do you not read the thread, DaZahroJam, Hakim/Subhan, Admin Khan himself you are confused.

by the way I made an inadvertent typing error; I said that Kharotan were transferred to Ghazni, what I meant to say they were transferred to KUNDUZ out of Ghazni. The most powerful Ghaznichi Kharotan, the Nasher/Qazi Khel people are in Kunduz. Hotakan are also transfers to Ghazni, we're actually originally from Qandahar and Zabul a couple of Hundred years ago.

I can blame Pashtunwali code; because its these customs are what allow such things to take place

Your attempt to make Pashtuns and their customs seem moral is ridiculous. This isn't to say Pashtun customs are WHOLLY immoral but there are clearly some serious problems in how we do things VERY SERIOUS.

DZJ is a insane kabulai, she tells people to go kill themselves. I did not see Subhans post in this thread. Admin did not say I was confused, he just made a comment to your post, thats all.

You blame pashtunwali for Hotaks to be tranferred to Ghazni and Kunduz. Are you serious, have you not read the history. Its a natural course of migration. People all over the world have been migrating for different reasons. some were for economical, some were forced but that is natural. It has nothing to do with pashtunwali. PAshtunwali is just a code on how things are done in triabl society. Believe me it bring some civility to the tribes, otherwise it would be pure barbarism. It has evolved by nature to bring civility not barbarity. It needs more change and adaptatation to the changing atmosphere.
I dont agree with all of pashtunwali, but some aspects of it are very good.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

DZJ is a insane kabulai, she tells people to go kill themselves. I did not see Subhans post in this thread. Admin did not say I was confused, he just made a comment to your post, thats all.

You blame pashtunwali for Hotaks to be tranferred to Ghazni and Kunduz. Are you serious, have you not read the history. Its a natural course of migration. People all over the world have been migrating for different reasons. some were for economical, some were forced but that is natural. It has nothing to do with pashtunwali. PAshtunwali is just a code on how things are done in triabl society. Believe me it bring some civility to the tribes, otherwise it would be pure barbarism. It has evolved by nature to bring civility not barbarity. It needs more change and adaptatation to the changing atmosphere.
I dont agree with all of pashtunwali, but some aspects of it are very good.

No she isn't she's from Sarobi and Jalalabad, and you're trying to discredit her on ad-hominem. You've spent most of your life away from Paktia.

I don't blame Pashtunwali on Hotaks being transferred; you knitwit, I only corrected something I said earlier I meant to type something else. The tramsferrence about the Hotaks was a side note.

The transfrerrene of the the Kharotan is to demonstrate how they have virtually no power in Ghazni now, they'd be victims if such an event occurred.

What I blame on Pashtunwali is that the rulles are arranged that more powerful tribes can overrun other tribes as Admin Khan pointed out and when it comes to issues of kidnapping girls or nanawatai to a kidnapper, it is accepted just as long as you're not doing it within your clan. This coincides with Kuchiyan who in the old times used to snatch Keliwal girls.

[khushal]

No she isn't she's from Sarobi and Jalalabad, and you're trying to discredit her on ad-hominem. You've spent most of your life away from Paktia.

I don't blame Pashtunwali on Hotaks being transferred; you knitwit, I only corrected something I said earlier I meant to type something else. The tramsferrence about the Hotaks was a side note.

The transfrerrene of the the Kharotan is to demonstrate how they have virtually no power in Ghazni now, they'd be victims if such an event occurred.

What I blame on Pashtunwali is that the rulles are arranged that more powerful tribes can overrun other tribes as Admin Khan pointed out and when it comes to issues of kidnapping girls or nanawatai to a kidnapper, it is accepted just as long as you're not doing it within your clan. This coincides with Kuchiyan who in the old times used to snatch Keliwal girls.

Ok, her telling people to kill themselves proves she is sane. Your the one who is committing ad hominem by saying I have spen most of my life away from paktia.

My point is Pashtunwali does not encourage that as you claim. I have already explained it. That is just a side effect of a lawless society.

And your wrong it is not accepted wheather your doing it within your own clan or some other clan. Kuchiyan that kidnapped keliwal girls did so because they were mobile and could disapear. It was hard to track them down. But you cant blame pashtunwali for that.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Ok, her telling people to kill themselves proves she is sane. Your the one who is committing ad hominem by saying I have spen most of my life away from paktia.

My point is Pashtunwali does not encourage that as you claim. I have already explained it. That is just a side effect of a lawless society.

And your wrong it is not accepted wheather your doing it within your own clan or some other clan. Kuchiyan that kidnapped keliwal girls did so because they were mobile and could disapear. It was hard to track them down. But you cant blame pashtunwali for that.

No it just says she's obmoxious, doesn't mean she's sane; it has no bearing on whether or not her statement is credible.

No I'm not; that's not what an ad-hominem is; you always get logical fallacies wrong. You attempt to discredit people by highlight wearing they live; which is an ad-hominem; but if we use that as a standard then you would lack credibility just as much as anyone else here if not more so

The ad-hominem is yours.

I know your "explaination" that's all it is; an excuse. It is Pashtunwalis system which doesn't rule by Law but rather a code of might, that allows this. It is a custom entrenched in society.