Atheists Vs Muslims

[Soldat_Amir]

i may be a non believer, but i aint no sell out biiitch

Amir

this is one of the main reasons why I dont consider myself as a Muslim anymore, its this blatant blindness and constant blaiming of others of their own problems.

BarakzaiAbdali blames the Americans for everything but ignores the social problems, the sectarian problems and the awy the Muslims loved American help during the Soviet war when they destroyed and brought a country to its knees for America and Pakistan.

I have been pushed away from Islam to this attitude and the constant blame game as if Muslims have been so peaceful and innocent.

There is no equality when you deal with them, its always the Jews and the Christians who cause all the problems, ignore the way Muslims are treated by other Muslims etc etc

thats my last comment on this thread

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Amir

this is one of the main reasons why I dont consider myself as a Muslim anymore, its this blatant blindness and constant blaiming of others of their own problems.

BarakzaiAbdali blames the Americans for everything but ignores the social problems, the sectarian problems and the awy the Muslims loved American help during the Soviet war when they destroyed and brought a country to its knees for America and Pakistan.

I have been pushed away from Islam to this attitude and the constant blame game as if Muslims have been so peaceful and innocent.

There is no equality when you deal with them, its always the Jews and the Christians who cause all the problems, ignore the way Muslims are treated by other Muslims etc etc

thats my last comment on this thread

Once again you are historically wrong and taking me out of context. You also stand in a completely different position than Ghaznavi. Lets make that crystal clear. Your position, in opposition to Ghaznavi... is that some evil form of Islam came out of nowhere and that Pashtuns were living the good high life like Brad and Angelina... smoking cigs together and going on dates... Islam was just some "spiritual thing." Ghaznavi, since he is educated is saying: No, this is an almost immune reaction time mechanism of Pashtuns responding to invaders trying to hoist a foreign system onto them.

Within their own lands and in regard to development of their resources and their many internal rivalries, Muslims are 100% responsible for the state they are in. The decay of society in the Muslim world internally, is their responsibility. The phenomenal levels of corruption is their albatross to wear around their neck.

However, let us redirect. Its merely that you attempt to use the canard of: Lets focus on Muslim pedophiles and lets focus on Muslim flower theifs and lets focus on Muslim elephant poatches not because you want to high light problems endemic to the Muslim world... but because you are trying hard to say to the viewer: See this? See what I am showing you? This justifies Karzai and NATO killing these people.

Its a simple minded and rather uninformed analysis of a complex issue. It ignores what truly motivates the fighters to fight (which, undoubtely is American support for tyrannical regimes per their own words).

In regard to "loving" America and whether those that fought the Russians "loved" Jews and Christians or not... you are incorrect. Abdullah Azzam and his acolytes actually were problematic for the CIA in that they openly stated they viewed America as the second enemy status post Russia. Watch Yosri Fouda interview the Central Intelligence Agency spokesmen in their prior effort to outreach to even the likes OBL. They openly admit they tried to recruit some of these die hards and that they opened files on these people solely because they were rebuffed. That is historical fact Soldat.


Moreover, its perfectly valid to ignore the way Muslims treat other Muslims because, the central premise here is that it has NOTHING to do with how Christians should treat Muslims.

If a Muslim shoots another Muslim, how, for instance, does that legitimize American or Soviet intervention overtly (war) or covertly (Najib and then Karzai)?

Once again, this is just you saying: Hey guys focus on the fact that a guy named Foad killed a guy nameed Habib.... so that means its fine for Prince Harry to come and occupy their land and create havoc.

No the answer is not that Harry is justified in occupation... its that he has no role whatsoever in what Habib and Foad do to eachother.

But you continuously show that you are a parasite on British society because you want them to deal with Mullah Omar for you. You refuse to strap on an AK and go fight your own battles.

Moreover, if one wants to talk about blame games... lets talk about how the communists like you blame Pakistan and Brzenzski for the creation of all evil in the world. Where is the personal responsibility for the death and havoc Parcham and Khalq wreaked with their land and social reforms that triggered tribal rebellion?

[ozymandias]

Let's go back to that...and leave this discussion for the Afterlife. I don't see a reason why atheists or muslim should have a problem with this proposal.

You don't see a reason anyone would have a problem with that? That's because you absolutely have no idea what it means to be atheist.

[Alchemist]

Let's have a truce brothers.

I gather from everyones input that there are some conditions for this truce to hold?

We do have common ground here - we are here because we care for the future of Afghanistan, specifically for pashtuns, and therefore for half of Pakistan at least. This should be enough for anyone to participate in this forum in a meaningful way - regardless of their background.

Let's agree that the taliban are not Heaven sent, Mullah Omar is not an infalliable saint and that our culture is not totally Islamic...not even our attitude is. The Messenger of God had rocks pelted at him, garbage and even the entrails of animals thrown at him, his family killed and dismembered, starved and tortured...but did he ever say "Oh I hate those kafirs. I will get revenge on them." Did he avenge anyone? Was he on a mission to hunt down atheists and debate with them? Peace and blessings on him, and all those who follow him. Even the atheists know that our approach is contradictory to teachings of the Holy prophet (pbuh) when we ceaselessly vilify them and brand them hopeless and doomed to hell. Let Allah decide that...you never know what will happen to who.


Bottom line - I don't think Soldat or Levenay explicitly mean to say that the occupation of Afghanistan is morally justified. I think their position is more against the taliban...which is something they have developed from their own experiences from the region. We have to be open minded here and think critically to some of the issues they raised - is it true that the taliban's take over of Swat left a bad taste in the local's mouth? Half the population (or slightly more than half) are women, are taliban interpreting sharia extremely? Did they adopt the hypocrisy of the Gulf States in the way they allow and even facilitate for the indulgence of their own men and suppress the basic rights of women?

So in order for this truce to work we have to reconsider our positions as simply being: Taliban vs West.
Rather there is an insurgency that fights an occupational force. Let's agree to this and carry on from thence.


Thank you all for considering this humble proposal.

(There will always be trolls who will try do dumb down the quality of this forum by posting provocative videos and articles to instigate some drama for their own amusement. Just put a sign that says - don't feed the troll on those threads)

[Afghanistan2010]

There shall be never truce and peace,
until they and their allies we destroy to debris.
between the followers of shaytan,
and the people of islam.
we will awaite them on the back of our horses with our swords
and their is one lord no lords.

Allahu Akbar Allahu Akbar

[Afghanistan2010]

You don't see a reason anyone would have a problem with that? That's because you absolutely have no idea what it means to be atheist.

It is a saying of the greatest man ever lived in this world :

and there is no one better from among us or those who came before and will come after us than him...may Allahs peace and blessing be upon him the brother of jesus (pbuh) :

The Messenger of Allah salAllahu alyhi wasalam said :


" Whoever possesses the following three qualities will have the sweetness (delight) of faith: 1. The one to whom Allah and His Apostle becomes dearer than anything else. 2. Who loves a person and he loves him only for Allah's sake. 3. Who hates to revert to Atheism (disbelief) as he hates to be thrown into the fire." (Bukhari)

[Soldat_Amir]

Barakzai I have seen debates with Muslims and Agnostics, and the Agnostics have won me over due to logic and fact, plus rationality and reasoning, the Muslims participants always end up with the same result nearly in every debate

1)you took me out of context the Quran is written in classical Arabic and no one speaks it, I assumed God would write his texts in a language for all ages and times?
2)The time of the Prophet is different to the time now, I assumed the Quran and Hadith is for all times and ages.
3)That's just zionist lies being spread to divide the Ummah, I am sure the SHia and Sunni conflict was not started by Zionists.

Plus no offence Alchemist, I wont comment any longer on this particular thread, but you start the thread with good intentions of a truce but then ruin it by suggesting our fates, when you refer to "let them be judged on Qiyamat" you know very well that was a threat of assurance on your behalf, let me remind you kindly, mankind was very much present before any Ambrahmic faith got established before Judaism there were faiths, pagan faiths, animalists and shamnists, for the last 3000 years, Ambrahmic followers from the Jews, Christians to the present day Muslims, have all been saying the usual things, the world will end and a messiah will come(Jews), Jesus will return and fight the anti christ( Christianity) and Islam you know what I mean, for the last 3000 or so years, I have not seen a single indication or experienced any super natural event that was "Qiyamat" and neither did the Israelis witness a super natural Messiah come down to save them against the Nazis, nor during the 7 day arab israeli conflict.

The only way we will see a Qiyamat is if Russia and America start a nuclear war race or a nuclear war, Russia has enough nuclear bombs to blow the world 10 times in and out, and rest assured those nuclear bombs are launched, inspected and produced by people not gods or prophets.

I hope you take my comment with no offence and I have presented myself in a decent manner.

Dera Manana.

[Alchemist]

There shall be never truce and peace,
until they and their allies we destroy to debris.
between the followers of shaytan,
and the people of islam.
we will awaite them on the back of our horses with our swords
and their is one lord no lords.

Allahu Akbar Allahu Akbar

That is a very nice poem brother.

Except we are in the internet. E-Jihad is not farz on you.

[Afghanistan2010]

That is a very nice poem brother.

Except we are in the internet. E-Jihad is not farz on you.

Speaking the truth is not fardh on you , making peace is not fardh on you ?

what is Jihad , and what is E-Jihad ? ...i just speak what is truth.


to my athesits friends who need proofs of Gods existence and awaited it.

Anselm of Canterbury Proof of GOD'S Existence by logic
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/anselm.asp

Leonhard Euler mathematical Proof of GOD'S Existence .
http://leonhard-euler.tripod.com/id4.html

<B>Euler's equation that proves God exists:

a+b^n = x

</B>

x

[ozymandias]

So basically, you want this forum to be renamed from "Religion" to "Islam"? It's very clear from many of the Muslim posts that the mere existence of an non-Muslim is viewed as an attack on Islam. Not all Muslims are that way, but many do. I would say that as long as this is a religion forum, any discussion of religion is valid -- that the moderators allow. If you take that as an attack, and are tired of losing, that's rough -- but so is life.

[ozymandias]

Speaking the truth is not fardh on you , making peace is not fardh on you ?

what is Jihad , and what is E-Jihad ? ...i just speak what is truth.


to my athesits friends who need proofs of Gods existence and awaited it.

So where is that supposed proof? I see no such thing.

[ozymandias]

There is a famous anecdote inspired by Euler's arguments with secular philosophers over religion, which is set during Euler's second stint at the St. Petersburg academy. The French philosopher Denis Diderot was visiting Russia on Catherine the Great's invitation. However, the Empress was alarmed that the philosopher's arguments for atheism were influencing members of her court, and so Euler was asked to confront the Frenchman. Diderot was later informed that a learned mathematician had produced a proof of the existence of God: he agreed to view the proof as it was presented in court. Euler appeared, advanced toward Diderot, and in a tone of perfect conviction announced, "Sir, , hence God exists—reply!". Diderot, to whom (says the story) all mathematics was gibberish, stood dumbstruck as peals of laughter erupted from the court. Embarrassed, he asked to leave Russia, a request that was graciously granted by the Empress. This anecdote is apocryphal, however, given that Diderot was a capable mathematician who had published several mathematical treatises of his own

So basically your proof is that you don't understand math? So you believe in a god, and accept anything as proof of a god?

[Soldat_Amir]

Ozzy and Alchemist I have been forced to respond to Afghanistan2010 comment.

He clearly has demostrated the attitude that puts us off very terribly.

He said there will be no peace until the swords are drawn, and this is a being said by a guy who is most probably living in the West.

Now if I just said "all Muslims are devils who should be shot because they follow a demonic faith" every I mean most members here who instantly mock and attack me.

Now since Afghanistan2010 has a fling for naked Chinese men, maybe the muscles and toned bodies makes him feel good, people, i mean Muslims need to confront this attitude, and I thank Alchemist for doing so.

Thanks.

[Manzareh]

So basically, you want this forum to be renamed from "Religion" to "Islam"? It's very clear from many of the Muslim posts that the mere existence of an non-Muslim is viewed as an attack on Islam. Not all Muslims are that way, but many do. I would say that as long as this is a religion forum, any discussion of religion is valid -- that the moderators allow. If you take that as an attack, and are tired of losing, that's rough -- but so is life.

You are wrong - take a look at the title of the religion section (were anything religious is to be posted) it says

"Religion - دين
Based on authentic sources, this section comprises of multimedia, articles and discussions on the religion of Islam." not every religion.

get your facts right.

[Manzareh]

Barakzai I have seen debates with Muslims and Agnostics, and the Agnostics have won me over due to logic and fact, plus rationality and reasoning, the Muslims participants always end up with the same result nearly in every debate

1)you took me out of context the Quran is written in classical Arabic and no one speaks it, I assumed God would write his texts in a language for all ages and times?
2)The time of the Prophet is different to the time now, I assumed the Quran and Hadith is for all times and ages.
3)That's just zionist lies being spread to divide the Ummah, I am sure the SHia and Sunni conflict was not started by Zionists.

Plus no offence Alchemist, I wont comment any longer on this particular thread, but you start the thread with good intentions of a truce but then ruin it by suggesting our fates, when you refer to "let them be judged on Qiyamat" you know very well that was a threat of assurance on your behalf, let me remind you kindly, mankind was very much present before any Ambrahmic faith got established before Judaism there were faiths, pagan faiths, animalists and shamnists, for the last 3000 years, Ambrahmic followers from the Jews, Christians to the present day Muslims, have all been saying the usual things, the world will end and a messiah will come(Jews), Jesus will return and fight the anti christ( Christianity) and Islam you know what I mean, for the last 3000 or so years, I have not seen a single indication or experienced any super natural event that was "Qiyamat" and neither did the Israelis witness a super natural Messiah come down to save them against the Nazis, nor during the 7 day arab israeli conflict.

The only way we will see a Qiyamat is if Russia and America start a nuclear war race or a nuclear war, Russia has enough nuclear bombs to blow the world 10 times in and out, and rest assured those nuclear bombs are launched, inspected and produced by people not gods or prophets.

I hope you take my comment with no offence and I have presented myself in a decent manner.

Dera Manana.

Wher are these debates?? show us the debate were nearly every time agnostics win due to logic and fact. i don't believe a single word that comes out your mouth.

Im sorry to say but your knowledge on Islam is very very weak, i know because im weak in Islamic knowledge myself but you make me look like a scholar, you lack even the basic knowledge as some of the things you mention are so stupid that they have been refuted thousands of times, surely before becoming a Kafir you would do your research first no? and if you did do your research why would you put things up or talk about things that can easily be answered simply typing it into google for instance. you put such a ridiculous argument up sometimes and it makes one wonder if your parents exposed Islam to you at all. You dont even have common knowledge on Islam, you speak like someone that has been raised up a non muslim.

mankind was very much present before any Ambrahmic faith got established before Judaism there were faiths, pagan faiths, animalists and shamnists, for the last 3000 years, Ambrahmic followers from the Jews, Christians to the present day Muslims

What about Adam, he was the first man, and a Muslim, so was Noah after him etc, so mankind didnt exist before Islam.

for the last 3000 or so years, I have not seen a single indication or experienced any super natural event that was "Qiyamat"

Qiyamat is at the end of times, not something that happens every couple of thousand years.

Islam is not here to show you proof or make you witness anything, thats the whole meaning of the word 'faith'. If he wanted to Allah would send down angels to you to witness Islam and remove any doubt that Islam might not be true, thats why its a test.

and neither did the Israelis witness a super natural Messiah come down to save them against the Nazis, nor during the 7 day arab israeli conflict.

Why would a messiah come down to save them against Nazis, you think the messiah is suppose to be some superman that hears suffering and rips his shirt open and saves the say like superman or batman, do your research of when and why the messiah will come, he will not come until the signs are completed

The only way we will see a Qiyamat is if Russia and America start a nuclear war race or a nuclear war,

How will that resemble Qiyamat?? seriously go find out what Qiyamah is.