Atheists Vs Muslims

[Alchemist]

Let's have a truce.

I am really tired of this game.

Everyone just stop focusing so much of my energy on this senseless battle.

The atheists have a problem with Allah. Let them deal with it on Qiyama.

We have more important issues that need to be dealt with in this world - such as the situation of Afghans in Afghanistan and the slow brainwashing of pashtuns in Pakistan.

Let's go back to that...and leave this discussion for the Afterlife. I don't see a reason why atheists or muslim should have a problem with this proposal.


Truce?

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

Well brother Alchemist, I can only speak for myself. I avoided religious discussions all together for the first year I was on this forum, for the same reasons I avoid it in real life:

- convincing the other of the truth of your position is rare
- I dont particularly care what others believe, I have no need to "convert" them to my position

I know others on this forum have engaged in baiting, but thats not my style. My issue really was, people denying my blood because of my beliefs and making threads where every sin under the sun can be ascribed to athiesm.

Even then my offence to this was more, I dont like ignorance being promoted, then feeling slighted because my beliefs are questioned

I find religious discussions to be entirely frivolous. In fact as a secularist, it goes against my philosophy to even give religious discussions credence

I respect you for this initiative and support it.

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

Furthermore, I would like to add that even from an Islamic point of view, these discussions are moot, because Allah himself has said, he who he has willed to Islam will go to Islam and he who he has not willed will not, hence there is no compulsion in faith because had Allah willed it, the world would be Muslim.

[Karachi]

Furthermore, I would like to add that even from an Islamic point of view, these discussions are moot, because Allah himself has said, he who he has willed to Islam will go to Islam and he who he has not willed will not, hence there is no compulsion in faith because had Allah willed it, the world would be Muslim.

Just a question, do you believe in God? and if not, what are the exact reasons?

You dont have to answer here if you wish, just PM me

[Asli]

Sorry, I am new to this place, but I agree. At the end of the day, it is for God to judge.

[LyariTown]

thank God.

Now this forum can go back to normal.

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

Just a question, do you believe in God? and if not, what are the exact reasons?

You dont have to answer here if you wish, just PM me

I refuse to concern myself with hypothetical questions about hypothetical beings. I see no presence of God. Hence whether he exists or doesnt exist is entire irrelevant to me.

Its like asking me, is there a shwarma out there being grilled to perfection. Well I certainly cant see this shwarma nor eat it. I dont know whats in it, or where it is. Ive never had shawarma, and frankly I dont have any appetite for it.

[کیش]

Never a truce.

I dislike Atheists, as I dislike humans. Thinking you know, will get you nowhere.

[Manzareh]

IMO many hardcore religious Pashtuns view Pashtuns as a silk peice of cloth that needs to get to the other side of a thorn bush, The thorn bush is Atheism/non-muslim interference in Pashtun matters, sure the cloth will get to the other side if it is pulled through the bush but it will be damaged and useless, rather we chop the damn bush down instead. Atheists know this which is the reason why they need Islam to be destroyed.

I personally have no problem with atheists or whatever they believe in, each to their own, but then means just keep it to your own and keep it to yourself, thers no need for them to constantly put their jibberish and smartass comments in our faces like pests. why should i/us be constantly challenged whenever 0.01% of Pashtuns dont like it when we want to spread Islamic unity among our people when we have full right to do so, or even speak about Islam?.

Iv never got into a religious debate or had a problem with AmirAlGhaznavi even though he is clearly a non muslim, its because he keeps his faith to himself, i dont see him mock Islam or constantly writing sarcastic posts against the religion and way of life of Pashtuns.

Even if non muslim pashtuns right now just follow pashtunwali alone and dont follow Islam, a mojority will still feel threatened by the common atheist here as much as a strong believer in Islam would be.

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

Islam will always in some form be a part of my life. I love Islam altho I find faults in it. Its just not for me.

I cant hate or insult Islam because thats akin to hating or insulting my father or my qawm. I do admit to getting drawn into the debates. But thats my fault. Discussions I dont belong in or make me enemies I should avoid

As non believing Pashtuns, we should keep our views to ourselves as Islam is and always will be an integral part of our societies

one thing i advise other non muslim pashtuns on, is that in our homeland these religious debates are not simply an exercise in theological debate as it may be in the west.

our homeland is destroyed by non muslims, so these conversations have extra degree of sensitivity

[R3SISTANC3]

Islam will always in some form be a part of my life. I love Islam altho I find faults in it. Its just not for me.

I cant hate or insult Islam because thats akin to hating or insulting my father or my qawm. I do admit to getting drawn into the debates. But thats my fault. Discussions I dont belong in or make me enemies I should avoid

As non believing Pashtuns, we should keep our views to ourselves as Islam is and always will be an integral part of our societies

one thing i advise other non muslim pashtuns on, is that in our homeland these religious debates are not simply an exercise in theological debate as it may be in the west.

our homeland is destroyed by non muslims, so these conversations have extra degree of sensitivity

Right on brother! These guys fail to see that Islam is an integral part of the Pashtun social fabric yet still choose to abuse it to cover up their own shortcomings. If someone is shoving their beliefs down your throat you have the right to defend your self but some people do so very inconsiderately that it doesn't matter what they are saying or defending anymore.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Let's have a truce.

I am really tired of this game.

Everyone just stop focusing so much of my energy on this senseless battle.

The atheists have a problem with Allah. Let them deal with it on Qiyama.

We have more important issues that need to be dealt with in this world - such as the situation of Afghans in Afghanistan and the slow brainwashing of pashtuns in Pakistan.

Let's go back to that...and leave this discussion for the Afterlife. I don't see a reason why atheists or muslim should have a problem with this proposal.


Truce?

My friend, thats a wonderful suggestion and I think its what I have been trying to say in terms of what the real debate and the real worldwide discussion that everyone should be having... not just Muslims in the West or folks who derive from traditionally Muslim lands. Thats why I try to generally avoid commenting on the Islamic theology thread unless something interests me or unless there is a blatantly wrong point.

These odd references to wine and whether God created it or not or whether women can marry pieces of bark etc are red herrings meant to detract from a far more important discussion. Its an attempt by a minority of these folks to justify what Kipling used to call "civilizing the little brown brother."

Its a bait and switch tactic that goes something like this:

Video 1: Muslims beat up women...
Video 2: Muslims are hypocrites and secretly drink wine in madrassahs but cut of heads of locals that simply mention wine
Video 3: Muslim make woman drink acid and then laugh the evil dracula laugh.

Then they leave these up with the hope that some simple clod walked away with the message:
Wow, I thought America was wrong for intervening in Afghanistan and fighting these guys! They are crazy and need some dp uranium bombs dropped on them!

The second implicit message they hope to send is:
Maybe... just maybe... the problem is the Quran and Islam itself! Now go and dwell on that for a little while!

The third message they send is:
Osama attacked us because Britney Spears can dance on tables! He hates our way of life! The US did not to instigate him ever.... he's like the bad guy in a harry potter movie.

^ Lavanay Zalmay tends to use this last tactic rather often and it really is ahistorical nonsense. Mr Bin Ladin was to the Arab world what Che Geuvara's insurgency was to Latin America.

One might have accused Dr. Geuvara of carrying his revolution, that was a response to the worldwide game played by the Americans and the Russians in places like Chile and Bolivia, of going uninvited to places like Cuba and Bolivia to fight a war that none of these citizens asked him to fight.

The issue is not that these men were heroes or right or moral or whether their methodology was ethical or not. Its that when you read their logs and diaries, 99% of their words indicate that their motives had everything to do with American interventionalism in their countries and not at all to do with how Americans live in the Northern American continent.

The discussion is not islam versus atheism or secularism versus democracy.

The real debate and question that should have been forced on these folks is whether it matters at all if their obviously absurd and false assertions are true or not.

They attempt to connect mutually exclusive dots with one another... for example:
American involvement in the Muslim world is not justified by some idiot in a madrassah chaining up mentally handicapped people anymore than any Muslim force would be justified taking action because Catholic Preists rape young kids or because Ted Haggard tells kids to sign up for the US military and preaches in a mega church while sodomizing boys.

Their general assertion is that its perfectly valid for America to intervene, force a foreign way of life onto people anywhere in the world, and to simultaneously benefit strategically.

The problem with this ethical construct is that its these two diametrically ethically opposite scenarios:

1. House across the street is lived in by abusive husband, beautiful wife, and 3 kids. Husband beats wife to pulp day and night. Neighbor decides to intervene because he is truly worried about the kids and the lady and wants the guy to reform.

2. House across the street is lived in by abuse husband, beautiful wife, and 3 kids. Husband beats wife to pulp day and night. Neighbor wants to be the hero for the beautiful wife so that he can get rid of the husband and have his way with her... so he decides to intervene though he has no proof that the wife even wants to be with him instead of hubby.

The second situation is sort of the ethical equivalent of what they are advocating for. If you take Mr. Karzai's fake jirga speech that is exactly what it boils down to.


The Amir has actually been very clear and honest in this way. He has not let his personal views of what he thinks is the best way to live be mixed into what he thinks is the best policy for the whole Muslim world, delivered by American force.

The other atheists have, on the other hand, despite admitting that they are the minority, tried to utilize these discussions to justify foreign intervention... or to link fervent Islam with Pakistani-ism or Arabism.

Thats why the discussion will never end Alchemist Brother. They cannot call a truce because their goals are to justify foreign interventionalism and force via maligning Islam or claiming that its some virulent strain of Islam that is responsible for all the world's ills. They have to keep this argument alive in order to justify the drone war and sustained intervention on the part of Western powers.

The deeper ethical dilemma is that they are not fighting this war of imposition their selves. They are taking some white guy from Podunk Kansas named Bill and making him kill Random Ahmad from the hills in Afghanistan, chasing windmills of nonexistent Islamic extremism that they are saying threaten's Britain and America's very shores. They are basically trying to force the world into perpetual war in order to implement their vision onto people.

In fact Soldat has this again and again.. he has said "our people need to be forced..."

Well, if he believes that this is justified... i.e. forcing people... then he has to realize that even the 9/11 commission report detailed blowback and what it is. He ough to read up on it.

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

The Amir has actually been very clear and honest in this way. He has not let his personal views of what he thinks is the best way to live be mixed into what he thinks is the best policy for the whole Muslim world, delivered by American force.

.

i may be a non believer, but i aint no sell out biiitch

[Insaaf_انصاف]

A thread of peace !

[Soldat_Amir]

I offered a truce some time ago and I was given the boot and told "No mercy on the devil" even when I stated I respect Islam and do not consider every Muslim as the same I was then told to basically go away because I was trying to cause Fitna amongst the Musulman of Pashtunforums.

Its not us the agnostics who have a problem, its the constant members with social problems who keep bringing this religionous issue up i.e unknownprince and co, i reported this some time ago, nobody was discussing religionous issues until the Religion thread was suddenly packed full of threads in relation to the whole asthist and faithful question.

Pashtuns who do not follow Islam have existed, Afghanistan was full of them during the 70's and they had to be some of the most educated, well versed and progressive minded people, its because some of you live in the West, your born defensive of your faith, and your parents have segregated you from the rest of society, spoonfed you all kinds of stories that inspires paranoia and hate towards other people, So I understand your positions.

I never left Islam because I though hey the West is so good, even the West has its bad qualities, it was the very same Muslims who lead me away from Islam through their actions and absolutely zero tolerance of debating rationally, plus the whole Talibanisation too, really put me off when i saw it with my own eyes the way they treat people.

Anyway that aside

I accept this truce, but hopefully Alchemist can you keep an eye on those threads that are purposely put up to stir?

Deera Manana