The Immorality of Child Abuse

[unknownprince]

All rubbish!

OZzy...

The Atheist Professors of ETHICS at the University are arguing that pedophilia is not bad.

What is bad and what is wrong?

Let's have a discussion on ethics then?

God forbids Sodomy. This is why it is wrong.


But what is your problem with a man and a child having a sexual relationship?
What do you see negative about it?
Why won't you say why you believe paedophilia is wrong? What is your source of Morality?



And unknownprince...
for the record our holy prophet peace be upon him has not been insulted. Yes he married Aisha...and if they mention that so what?

Let them take pedophilia out of the DSM-IV (the bible of psychologists). The DSM V or VI or whatever edition it is at. The DSM is a joke anyway...I've heard even "Road Rage" is classified as a mental disease too..and "Caffeine Addiction"?

Regardless...
Dazohra...I am not defending Islam here. I am just stating the truth.
In your mind you are defending Islam because you want to censor all taboo discussions. I take it that you are trying to escape the realities of life in your novels and on this forums. "Child bride" marriages should be discussed because they are real in afghanistan? So what? Hue Heffner is what? 90 something years old? The whole of the western world loves him for what he has done for their culture. And how many women does he keep in his harem? Why is it acceptable in the west but questionable in the middle east? Aren't we all humans after all? Should your morals only apply in one niche of the whole world?

We need to study our own assumptions here. Instead of jumping on the bandwagon and recycling old arguments.

Let's have a debate on ethics...what are the ethics of atheists anyway?

Thanks for bringing this discussion to a more professional start.

They were mocking the Prophet(pbuh) and I expect that to be taken care of very shortly. One even was more explicit

It appears they can not handle a proper debate on this topic

[IamDZJ]

^ you are such a crybaby.

[Alchemist]

First of all I didn't know who Hue Hefner was prior to this so he most definitely did not have my respect to begin with. Secondly, the women he keeps around him are of legal age, not 13 year olds. They are adults who have chosen to be with him by their own choice and are not forced, married and sold off by their relatives or parents and expected to have children and carry the responsibilities that come along with being the spouse of a 60 year old afghan man. The women hue Hefner keeps around him are not expected to have the responsibility of looking after a household. I don't know why you are using him to justify child brides.. Besides , our morals and idea of excellence should exceed that of the types of Hue Hefner. We as afghans and muslims don't have to live up to the standards of those who don't speak our language, are not familiar or living according to our culture and do not follow our religion. There is nothing wrong with changing a negative aspect of a culture.

Also alchemist, I am not scimitarxedge. Don't act like a bitch around me by mocking my taste in literature because I don't have it in me to return you the favor by making nasty remarks about your restaurant or physical appearance. Well, I have it in me but I would rather not.

You know, for some odd reason I expected you and unknownprince as the type of individuals who would be more dedicted to reading about Islam, praying and stuff like that but seem to me like the two of you would rather spend your time either doing research on pornography or personalities like hue Hefner. How disappointing...

You are disappointed?
Well I can't say the same for you. I didn't have much expectation from a bipolar manic depressant.


Just answer this:

What is the big difference between a 13 year old girl and an 18 year old girl?


It can't be biological. Most girls by age 13 have reached puberty and developed sexual organs that are fully functional through out the rest of their lives.

It can't be psychological. According Jean Piaget's Cognitive development theory by age 11+ both boys and girls are able to abstract and manipulate ideas as adults.

What makes the legal age a magical number anyway?

What is the big difference between a 13 year old and a 16 year old...when 16 year old can drive a car, join the army and have sexual relationships when anyone he or she chooses? What is the difference between a 16 year old and a 19 year old to choose to drink?




Oh ...wtf am I doing? Trying to reason with you? sheesh ..i just wasted 5 minutes of my life...ops...carry on lil girl. You are excused.

[IamDZJ]

You are disappointed?
Well I can't say the same for you. I didn't have much expectation from a bipolar manic depressant.
Just answer this:
What is the big difference between a 13 year old girl and an 18 year old girl?
It can't be biological. Most girls by age 13 have reached puberty and developed sexual organs that are fully functional through out the rest of their lives.
It can't be psychological. According Jean Piaget's Cognitive development theory by age 11+ both boys and girls are able to abstract and manipulate ideas as adults.
What makes the legal age a magical number anyway?
What is the big difference between a 13 year old and a 16 year old...when 16 year old can drive a car, join the army and have sexual relationships when anyone he or she chooses? What is the difference between a 16 year old and a 19 year old to choose to drink?

Oh ...wtf am I doing? Trying to reason with you? sheesh ..i just wasted 5 minutes of my life...ops...carry on lil girl. You are excused.

Are you seriously this stooo,pid or are you pretending to be one?? Such a typical caveman mentality... Just because a girl has started forming the organs of a woman does not mean she is prepare for marriage or motherhood because a marriage and motherhood is not simply about having breasts. WTF!?
I can understand why a 16 or 17 year old girl who has no hopes of getting any education in the next few years of her life can be considered of being of a somewhat appropriate age for marriage but 11 and 13???
A 13 year old child doesn't have the mentality of a 60 old man do its obvious that communication between the two might not be that adventurous which results in her life being placed in danger of domestic violence and abuse both in the hands of her spouse and her in laws. It's understandable as to why a 40, 50 or 60 year old man might feel frustrated with a preteen of life partner...She doesn't understand how to take care of her husband, family, child or herself because she was not provided with the education that a young female adult gets before marriage which is between age 15-21. that is how she ends up running away from home or burned alive by her in laws or raising stupid children.
You worry about the loss of five minutes of your life but you consider it alright that a child of 13 should be married with a 60 year old man who will probably die before she reaches the age of 25. I don't know why you are constantly comparing things to the situations in the west. I never said 16 year olds driving cars and having sex with random guys in the west was a better or appropriate option for girls that age...
I would like to see you pull off your child from school at 13 and have her wed off to a 30 year old let alone a 60 year old one.
And I was trying to be humble when I said I was disappointed. The only thing I keep expectations from are my socks.

[Alchemist]

Are you seriously this stooo,pid or are you pretending to be one?? Such a typical caveman mentality... Just because a girl has started forming the organs of a woman does not mean she is prepare for marriage or motherhood because a marriage and motherhood is not simply about having breasts. WTF!?
I can understand why a 16 or 17 year old girl who has no hopes of getting any education in the next few years of her life can be considered of being of a somewhat appropriate age for marriage but 11 and 13???
A 13 year old child doesn't have the mentality of a 60 old man do its obvious that communication between the two might not be that adventurous which results in her life being placed in danger of domestic violence and abuse both in the hands of her spouse and her in laws. It's understandable as to why a 40, 50 or 60 year old man might feel frustrated with a preteen of life partner...She doesn't understand how to take care of her husband, family, child or herself because she was not provided with the education that a young female adult gets before marriage which is between age 15-21. that is how she ends up running away from home or burned alive by her in laws or raising stupid children.
You worry about the loss of five minutes of your life but you consider it alright that a child of 13 should be married with a 60 year old man who will probably die before she reaches the age of 25. I don't know why you are constantly comparing things to the situations in the west. I never said 16 year olds driving cars and having sex with random guys in the west was a better or appropriate option for girls that age...
I would like to see you pull off your child from school at 13 and have her wed off to a 30 year old let alone a 60 year old one.
And I was trying to be humble when I said I was disappointed. The only thing I keep expectations from are my socks.

Excuse me but it sounds like you are rationalizing your life as a bachelorette.

You said "the legal age"...legal age where? In the west obviously...in the west where 18 year old girls happily marry rich 80 year old man knowing fully well that when that man dies all his wealth will be passed on to her!

[IamDZJ]

Excuse me but it sounds like you are rationalizing your life as a bachelorette.

You said "the legal age"...legal age where? In the west obviously...in the west where 18 year old girls happily marry rich 80 year old man knowing fully well that when that man dies all his wealth will be passed on to her!

you know, when an 18 year old with a corrupted soul in the west marries a man of 80 for his money, she gets his money after his death. what sort of a fortune does a 13 year old afghan girl get once she becomes a widow? what about her innocence? how about the fact that she as an individual of a sound mind has the right to choose the type of a man she wants to live with for the rest of her life and have children with? sure, she can't do that because she is only 13 but who is at fault for that?
is the alternative of what happens to an afghan girl who is not married off at a young age anyhow relevant to the lifestyle of women of any age (let alone 18) in the west?

the reason as to why i am not insulting you for assuming things when it comes to what it is that i am trying to rationalize or my emotional state of being is because i don't have an petite for humiliating you at the moment. should i develop one at a later time, i will not hesitate once. knock yourself out.

[Alchemist]

You make it sound like that 13 year old girl is 99% of the time some orphan.
Or the old man snatched her away from her family by force.

In afghanistan men sell their women for donkeys for a loaf of breath.

Yes, in the west it's about millions or hundreds of thousands of dollars...but for all you know that 13 year old chose to marry that old man to save her family...

This is just all hypothetical nonsense on your part.

13 year olds in the west are a different story...watch jerry springer or the murry show to get a sample of 13 year olds then you won't think 13 year olds are all innocent little lambs. Oh but an 18 year old that marries a man for his money has a corrupted soul? Who are you to judge? ...I think your problem is bollywood/hollywood/kite runner...too much liberal pretence.

[IamDZJ]

You make it sound like that 13 year old girl is 99% of the time some orphan.
Or the old man snatched her away from her family by force.

In afghanistan men sell their women for donkeys for a loaf of breath.

Yes, in the west it's about millions or hundreds of thousands of dollars...but for all you know that 13 year old chose to marry that old man to save her family...

This is just all hypothetical nonsense on your part.

13 year olds in the west are a different story...watch jerry springer or the murry show to get a sample of 13 year olds then you won't think 13 year olds are all innocent little lambs. Oh but an 18 year old that marries a man for his money has a corrupted soul? Who are you to judge? ...I think your problem is bollywood/hollywood/kite runner...too much liberal pretence.

i never said anything like that. if she is not an orphan or snatched then her parents or family should know better than pushing her in to a situation like that. that puts even more blame on them for being irresponsible and selfish. if the old men care enough for her family and want to have mercy on her then instead of marrying them to themselves, they should get her married to their sons, brothers of nephews.
once again, the 13 year old afghan girl does not have the same mentality as the 13 year old participants of jerry springer show you speak of. who am i to judge?? i am not supposed to judge an 18 year old girl marrying an 80 year old man for his money?? wasn't that your argument earlier?? didn't you bring hue hefner guy in to this conversation by talking about how ill mannered yet respected amongst westerners he was??
you wouldn't want to know my thoughts on what you think the root of my "problem" is here..

[Alchemist]

i never said anything like that. if she is not an orphan or snatched then her parents or family should know better than pushing her in to a situation like that. that puts even more blame on them for being irresponsible and selfish. if the old men care enough for her family and want to have mercy on her then instead of marrying them to themselves, they should get her married to their sons, brothers of nephews.
once again, the 13 year old afghan girl does not have the same mentality as the 13 year old participants of jerry springer show you speak of. who am i to judge?? i am not supposed to judge an 18 year old girl marrying an 80 year old man for his money?? wasn't that your argument earlier?? didn't you bring hue hefner guy in to this conversation by talking about how ill mannered yet respected amongst westerners he was??
you wouldn't want to know my thoughts on what you think the root of my "problem" is here..

The root of the problem is YOUR mentality.

When the issue was about Man-Boy love..."Oh! that's nasty! So unislamic of you to talk about that".
Flip it around to Girl-Man marriage ..."OH! Drop these old men in some unmarked grave!"

You only seem to get vociferous in a discussion when you can empathize with the subject, due to your egocentrism and superficial understanding of complex social issues.

Because in the later case you can relate to that little girl and think to your self: "Well if it was me at age 13? How horrible. Thank God I am independent!"

The playboy bunny that independently chooses to live in Hue's mansion like an ornament is the guilty one according to Sharia. Not the old man that marries the 13 year old. Note that in both scenarios the society at large accepts both lifestyles. My intention was to show you that your own ethics are questionable and contradictory since you presume to derive them from sharia but argue against sharia...

You don't seem to understand. I don't judge the 18 year old that marries the 80 year old man and the 50 year old man that marries the 13 year old girl. Because the key word here is: Marriage!
Marriage is a social institution that serves more than just one's innate carnal needs. Which is why it is a social function, you have a feast and announce the formation of new bonds ...so much so that even in churches the pastors asks "Does anyone here object to this holy union?" So you are the one condemning societies at large....for following their own ethics. Unlike the tradition of some from godless societies who take a long trip to thailand to spend time with prostituted children.

Like I said...we have to question our own assumptions. You seem to follow your feelings on what is right. Follow your gut feelings when it comes to your own personal affairs by all means...but we are having a philosophical discussion and if you are not able to *think* about it with a clear mind...don't waste any more of anyone else's time. In the end you are just humiliating your self when it appears that you are just speaking for the sake of speaking.

[IamDZJ]

The root of the problem is YOUR mentality.

When the issue was about Man-Boy love..."Oh! that's nasty! So unislamic of you to talk about that".
Flip it around to Girl-Man marriage ..."OH! Drop these old men in some unmarked grave!" you dropped your tiara..

You only seem to get vociferous in a discussion when you can empathize with the subject, due to your egocentrism and superficial understanding of complex social issues. yeah?? how else is it supposed to work if not by empathizing with the subject?? due to my egocentrism and superficial understanding of complex social situations...and where does your understanding of these complex social issues come from? and of what use is this understanding of yours if it doesn't even empathize with the subject?
Because in the later case you can relate to that little girl and think to your self: "Well if it was me at age 13? How horrible. Thank God I am independent!" shut up

The playboy bunny that independently chooses to live in Hue's mansion like an ornament is the guilty one according to Sharia. Not the old man that marries the 13 year old. i have a problem with this version of sharia you have created in your mind. if a society can't apply a law in the favor of one individual as efficiently as it does in the favor of the other then it's a faulty and useless formula to begin with...specially when that very same law is responsible for placing the less advantaged individual in that situation in the first place. if it can allow an old man to marry a young girl for the noblest reasons then why does it fail to protect the very same girl from being burned alive or abused in the hands of the man who is apparently abiding by the rules of sharia by marrying her? i refuse to accept that load of crap under the title of sharia because i think you are bull****ting. Note that in both scenarios the society at large accepts both lifestyles. doesn't mean we should continue accepting it. My intention was to show you that your own ethics are questionable and contradictory since you presume to derive them from sharia but argue against sharia... there is sharia and then the sharia that your type tends to come up with inside their heads for their own convenience.

You don't seem to understand. I don't judge the 18 year old that marries the 80 year old man and the 50 year old man that marries the 13 year old girl. Because the key word here is: Marriage! what about it? does it justify the ill treatment of another human being in the hands of a spouse or a woman marrying a man for his money only? because the magic word of marriage is the common bond between them?does it justify those two wrongs? marriage means nothing if it doesn't exist in the form and sense that the unification of two souls are meant to be joined for.
Marriage is a social institution that serves more than just one's innate carnal needs. Which is why it is a social function, you have a feast and announce the formation of new bonds ...so much so that even in churches the pastors asks "Does anyone here object to this holy union?" So you are the one condemning societies at large....for following their own ethics. Unlike the tradition of some from godless societies who take a long trip to thailand to spend time with prostituted children. who needs the trip to thailand when it's provided to you by your own community and perceived as a great deed towards humanity too...<========Like I said...we have to question our own {assumptions} You seem to follow your feelings on what is right. Follow your gut feelings when it comes to your own personal affairs by all means...but we are having a philosophical discussion and if you are not able to *think* about it with a clear mind...don't waste any more of anyone else's time. In the end you are just humiliating your self when it appears that you are just speaking for the sake of speaking.
my gut feelings tell me that you seem to be under the false impression of being bestowed some sort of a special talent by the God almighty at figuring out what people are feeling and thinking as well as having the right to speak on their behalf too while you are at it...
whether i speak because you think i speak for the sake of speaking or actually having something to speak about, the choice of speaking what i speak is for me to make, not you.
philosophical discussion my foot...

[Tjanaparh]

I wonder how can You hold such long discussions on that topic.
A sin simply is doing pain to somebody - either You make it willingly or not.
Sins have 3 roots - lust, greed and anger.

Accordingly to how much pain a person brings in the life of the other - his sin is more heavy...
More heavy hi sin, more heavy will be the consequences!

[Alchemist]

I wonder how can You hold such long discussions on that topic.
A sin simply is doing pain to somebody - either You make it willingly or not.
Sins have 3 roots - lust, greed and anger.

Accordingly to how much pain a person brings in the life of the other - his sin is more heavy...
More heavy hi sin, more heavy will be the consequences!

That is a pretty flimsy definition...

what about the punishment that society deals for sin's that don't cause any pain. And how you define pain? Is loss of property painful? Is consumption of alcohol painful?

Then even going by your own definition if the act is consensual between the two parties ...then there is no sin? Even if it is a 12 year old boy and an old man?

[Alchemist]

The root of the problem is YOUR mentality.

When the issue was about Man-Boy love..."Oh! that's nasty! So unislamic of you to talk about that".
Flip it around to Girl-Man marriage ..."OH! Drop these old men in some unmarked grave!" you dropped your tiara..

You only seem to get vociferous in a discussion when you can empathize with the subject, due to your egocentrism and superficial understanding of complex social issues. yeah?? how else is it supposed to work if not by empathizing with the subject?? due to my egocentrism and superficial understanding of complex social situations...and where does your understanding of these complex social issues come from? and of what use is this understanding of yours if it doesn't even empathize with the subject?
Because in the later case you can relate to that little girl and think to your self: "Well if it was me at age 13? How horrible. Thank God I am independent!" shut up

The playboy bunny that independently chooses to live in Hue's mansion like an ornament is the guilty one according to Sharia. Not the old man that marries the 13 year old. i have a problem with this version of sharia you have created in your mind. if a society can't apply a law in the favor of one individual as efficiently as it does in the favor of the other then it's a faulty and useless formula to begin with...specially when that very same law is responsible for placing the less advantaged individual in that situation in the first place. if it can allow an old man to marry a young girl for the noblest reasons then why does it fail to protect the very same girl from being burned alive or abused in the hands of the man who is apparently abiding by the rules of sharia by marrying her? i refuse to accept that load of crap under the title of sharia because i think you are bull****ting. Note that in both scenarios the society at large accepts both lifestyles. doesn't mean we should continue accepting it. My intention was to show you that your own ethics are questionable and contradictory since you presume to derive them from sharia but argue against sharia... there is sharia and then the sharia that your type tends to come up with inside their heads for their own convenience.

You don't seem to understand. I don't judge the 18 year old that marries the 80 year old man and the 50 year old man that marries the 13 year old girl. Because the key word here is: Marriage! what about it? does it justify the ill treatment of another human being in the hands of a spouse or a woman marrying a man for his money only? because the magic word of marriage is the common bond between them?does it justify those two wrongs? marriage means nothing if it doesn't exist in the form and sense that the unification of two souls are meant to be joined for.
Marriage is a social institution that serves more than just one's innate carnal needs. Which is why it is a social function, you have a feast and announce the formation of new bonds ...so much so that even in churches the pastors asks "Does anyone here object to this holy union?" So you are the one condemning societies at large....for following their own ethics. Unlike the tradition of some from godless societies who take a long trip to thailand to spend time with prostituted children. who needs the trip to thailand when it's provided to you by your own community and perceived as a great deed towards humanity too...<========Like I said...we have to question our own {assumptions} You seem to follow your feelings on what is right. Follow your gut feelings when it comes to your own personal affairs by all means...but we are having a philosophical discussion and if you are not able to *think* about it with a clear mind...don't waste any more of anyone else's time. In the end you are just humiliating your self when it appears that you are just speaking for the sake of speaking.
my gut feelings tell me that you seem to be under the false impression of being bestowed some sort of a special talent by the God almighty at figuring out what people are feeling and thinking as well as having the right to speak on their behalf too while you are at it...
whether i speak because you think i speak for the sake of speaking or actually having something to speak about, the choice of speaking what i speak is for me to make, not you.
philosophical discussion my foot...

Fallacious generalizations, appeal to ignorance, emotional please...

Now you are just projecting your own faults on to me. "The sharia in your own head"...we've gone from atheism to acid burned women in afghanistan. Domestic violence is a totally separate issue...drama queen.

"marriage means nothing if it doesn't exist in the form and sense that the unification of two souls are meant to be joined for." What does that even mean?

[IamDZJ]

it means you cant join two incompatible individuals together and then do whatever you want to do to them and then justify it by using the word marriage.
i am not the one who brought up the topic of child brides in to the question. it was you.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/religion-15/atheism-leads-pedophilia-24429/index12.html

if you are justifying this because you feel obliged to defending the prophet marrying aysha pbuh but lack the brain cells or guts to say so then i would like to remind you that every random 60 year old in afghanistan is not and can not stand up to the measures of the prophet mohammad salalah. it's simple as that. okay?

[Alchemist]

it means you cant join two incompatible individuals together and then do whatever you want to do to them and then justify it by using the word marriage.
i am not the one who brought up the topic of child brides in to the question. it was you.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/religion-15/atheism-leads-pedophilia-24429/index12.html

I just mentioned how sentimental you get about small girls marrying older men to show your hypocrisy toward's unknowns' article which discusses the rational of atheists for paedophilia, specifically boys.

The more you argue ...the more irrational and idiotic you get. And then you question how I break down social issues?

Who are you to say that compatibility is defined by age?
A male and a female are biologically compatible. If they are from the same community, then their mentalities are the same. This issue of "compatibility" is only your own western mind's conception of what marriage is. Compatibility is just an excuse in the west for boys and girls to go on multiple dates with multiple people.

The idiocy is in your assumption that I am that one marries people and then I toy with their lives...Who do you think I am? Mogambo? Take it easy on the hyperboles...

iif you are justifying this because you feel obliged to defending the prophet marrying aysha pbuh but lack the brain cells or guts to say so then i would like to remind you that every random 60 year old in afghanistan is not and can not stand up to the measures of the prophet mohammad salalah. it's simple as that. okay?

No true Scotsman fallacy.
You are implying that every old man that marries a younger girl is an evil bad man....except the messengers of Allah. That doesn't even make sense.

You seem to be suffering from cognitive dissonance. Deal with it your self. And stop arguing with me just to save face.