Ask an American, agnostic and atheist man pretty much anything

[ozymandias]

How am I dishonest if you are the one saying that the wars sanctioned by the UN are "justified" on "humanitarian" grounds?

I never stated anything that even implies "Afghans, Iraqis, Libyans, Yemenis all deserve to be bombed and attacked because the UN is protecting their human rights." yet you attribute that to me. That is dishonest, and it is not the only instance of you doing such a thing.

If you cannot be civil, and honest, I am going to refrain from talking to you. It serves no point. You go out of your way to be insulting, to deliberately lie and misrepresent what anyone you disagree with says, you post evidence to things, and then claim they indicate the exact opposite of what they state. Since I do not believe you are actually a rude, ignorant person, I am forced to conclude you are nothing more than a troll, and no further discussion is worthwhile. I sincerely hope that you made honest mistakes and are willing to be civil, adult, and intelligent going forward, so I will give you a chance to straighten out.

I feel that if you chose to have an honest conversation, it would be a very entertaining one for the both of us. As it is, you do not appear to want to have an honest conversation.

[Alchemist]

you didn't say it directly but that is what you implied...so spare me the theatrics.

[ozymandias]

you didn't say it directly but that is what you implied...so spare me the theatrics.

I implied no such thing, so spare me the lies.

[Alchemist]

did you not say that the UN is withholding the charter of rights?

And did you not say that they justified the war on Libya using the same declaration of rights?

[al-arab]

You are 68 years old? If so you should be even more aware of your constant fauls and for your government than any single young american!

This is no excuse.

"Already addressed this. Repeatedly. But I will point out once again, that the reason we came back was to clean up terrorist cells we believed were operating out of your country with the support of your government. This may have been wrong, but that is what was told to the American people as justification. As for leaving the same day the Soviets left, I have already pointed out that this is why there is a plan in place for withdrawal this time around, to avoid making that mistake again."

This is complete nonsens. We did not even have a government when you attacked Iraq but a dictatorship. The government you have created is a puppet government ruled by Shia's. Nothing else.

Sunni Iraqi Arabs will no exept the fake puppet government you have made in Iraq. So you withdrawel in December Insha'Allah will not help anything. Your role in Iraq is very clear for all. You have divided even some Sunnis among each other who has the same goal to kick you out of Iraq again.

No I am upset because you government help Arab dictators to power, sponsored the with money (several example of that) and when they do not suit you, you remove them. And afterwards you critize us for lack of so called democracy.

Wonder why? Might it have something to do with your behaviour in Iraq, the war you created, the killings, the hypocrisy, the divition between Muslims, your wanting to control Iraqi Oil etc.

You don't care about so called democracy or human rights as seen from Wikileaks. The only think you care about is power, control and money. Nothing else. Everything else you claim is lies to brainwash people to think that you are some kind of saviour and different human beings that other's and the only nation on the world that only act in the name of "humanity".

I am sorry but I have little sympathy for your views, the government YOUR people have shown and your lack of more precise replies.

[ozymandias]

did you not say that the UN is withholding the charter of rights?

Withholding? No. I said that the UN drafted and agreed to a definition of human rights. which was signed by many, if not all, member nations at the time, including Afghanistan, and Iran, among other Muslim countries.

And did you not say that they justified the war on Libya using the same declaration of rights?

You stated "The same UN which has sanctioned the war on Iraq and Afghanistan can "feel" the suffering of the people and come up with a "rational and logical and ethical" system to heal us?" to which I replied that the UN *DID* in fact use the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as part of the justification for going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan, which is true. One of the stated objectives of the UN was to allow all people in Iraq and Afghanistan the ability to exercise these rights, and this required removing an oppressive regime through military force.

This doesn't even mention the fact that there is a huge difference between my stating that the UN used Human Rights Violations to justify a military action, and your implication that I supported the attack of all people in Iraq, Afghan, Libya and Yemen.

You stated that I said "Afghans, Iraqis, Libyans, Yemenis all deserve to be bombed and attacked because the UN is protecting their human rights", which I clearly did not nor did I imply anything that a rational person could mistake for that. I stated nothing about civilians, nor did I even mention Libya, or Yemen, nor did I express universal support for the actions taken.

[ozymandias]

You are 68 years old? If so you should be even more aware of your constant fauls and for your government than any single young american!

I said I am not. I have been accused of being guilty for everything the US has done in the last 50 years, which would require I be 68 years old -- old enough to vote for the last 50 years.

It is not feasible to even *try* to hold me accountable for things before I was born, or before I could vote. I had no say.

This is no excuse.

"Already addressed this. Repeatedly. But I will point out once again, that the reason we came back was to clean up terrorist cells we believed were operating out of your country with the support of your government. This may have been wrong, but that is what was told to the American people as justification. As for leaving the same day the Soviets left, I have already pointed out that this is why there is a plan in place for withdrawal this time around, to avoid making that mistake again."

This is complete nonsens. We did not even have a government when you attacked Iraq but a dictatorship. The government you have created is a puppet government ruled by Shia's. Nothing else.

And those dictators were believed to support terrorists. Why does it matter if they were a dictator or a legitimate government? They still instigated the conflict.

Sunni Iraqi Arabs will no exept the fake puppet government you have made in Iraq. So you withdrawel in December Insha'Allah will not help anything. Your role in Iraq is very clear for all. You have divided even some Sunnis among each other who has the same goal to kick you out of Iraq again.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are saying.

No I am upset because you government help Arab dictators to power, sponsored the with money (several example of that) and when they do not suit you, you remove them. And afterwards you critize us for lack of so called democracy.

That may have been true in the past, but the efforts are to set up a democracy safe from dictators this time around.

Wonder why? Might it have something to do with your behaviour in Iraq, the war you created, the killings, the hypocrisy, the divition between Muslims, your wanting to control Iraqi Oil etc.

??

Wonder why what?

You don't care about so called democracy or human rights as seen from Wikileaks.

I have never been on Wikileaks, and you don't even know my real name.

The only think you care about is power, control and money. Nothing else. Everything else you claim is lies to brainwash people to think that you are some kind of saviour and different human beings that other's and the only nation on the world that only act in the name of "humanity".

You are welcome to disagree, but the facts are clear.

I am sorry but I have little sympathy for your views, the government YOUR people have shown and your lack of more precise replies.

What would you like me to be more precise on?

[Alchemist]

Withholding? No. I said that the UN drafted and agreed to a definition of human rights. which was signed by many, if not all, member nations at the time, including Afghanistan, and Iran, among other Muslim countries.



You stated "The same UN which has sanctioned the war on Iraq and Afghanistan can "feel" the suffering of the people and come up with a "rational and logical and ethical" system to heal us?" to which I replied that the UN *DID* in fact use the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as part of the justification for going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan, which is true. One of the stated objectives of the UN was to allow all people in Iraq and Afghanistan the ability to exercise these rights, and this required removing an oppressive regime through military force.

This doesn't even mention the fact that there is a huge difference between my stating that the UN used Human Rights Violations to justify a military action, and your implication that I supported the attack of all people in Iraq, Afghan, Libya and Yemen.

You stated that I said "Afghans, Iraqis, Libyans, Yemenis all deserve to be bombed and attacked because the UN is protecting their human rights", which I clearly did not nor did I imply anything that a rational person could mistake for that. I stated nothing about civilians, nor did I even mention Libya, or Yemen, nor did I express universal support for the actions taken.

You said it was "justified".

If you believe the war on Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya are justified on "Human Rights" grounds..then you are prejudiced and hypocritical.

We pointed out to you that the human charter of rights is a sham. If we tell you Islam is a religion of peace...then you smirk at us. But if the faults of your nation, your civilization are pointed out...you merely wash your hands and claim innocence for not being a party.

Why don't you man up and tell us who you actually support? What you stand for?
Are all "agnostic atheist americans" cynical cowards like your self?

[al-arab]

68 years or not you are old enough to vote.

"Were belived" which turned out to be a lie. Saddam was a tyran and not a Muslim despite his Sunni upbringing. His whole family were just like Al-Assad and Al-Gaddafi. You also supported those dictators in the past and help them in power when you removed the Kings in both country.

See, you don't even know about history. Read about conflict between Sunnis from 2006-2007. This is fortunately past but it was you who offered money in return of hatred on fellow Muslim Brothers because you lost control of Al-Anbar, Ramadi and Fallujah. You needed Iraqis to defeat Iraqis. You did never control the whole country at no point. Not even Baghdad. You did not solve any problems you only made the hate toward USA bigger. You know very well what you have created. Fake Iraqi government will fall very soon.

It is not obvious? You only attacked Iraq because of oil. You could have attacked Syria, Algeria and other countries who supported Al-Qaeda. But you did not because they had not such rich natural wealth as Iraq. A lot of Iraqis never liked you and still don't like and never will but Al-Qaeda was not strong in Iraq. Now it is. Thanks to you. You create your own problems and I have no pity for you if you country face teh consequences of that policy.

Just like 9/11.

I am not talking about YOU when I say you but you americans. You are to afraid to see your genocide on wikileads. You did not even see the video I posted of US troops killing civilians for FUN.

THE US army knew about this but did NOTHING. Only thanks to Wikileaks the world saw your TRUE face.

Your hypocrits only deserve hate with that policy and view as people.

Which facts are clear? Your genocide, torture, hypocrisy and wrong wars?

Your yes and no answers and pointless excuses and claims of being civilized, human defenders but doing all the opposite in Iraq, rest of Arab world, Afghanistan, supporting fascist governments in Uzbekistan, Africa etc. just because it suit your interest. The same with Mubarak before and Al-Assad before, Pakistan etc.

[ozymandias]

You said it was "justified".

No I did not. Please find a quote where I said that.

If you believe the war on Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya are justified on "Human Rights" grounds..then you are a prejudiced and hypocritical.

Not only is this incorrect, it is a non-issue, because I have never stated that I thought it was justified purely (or in part) on Human Rights issues.

You may be confused, as I *DID* say that the UN used human rights as part of their justification -- but that implies no support on my part.

We pointed out to you that the human charter of rights is a shame.

You are free to think that, and to even claim that, but you never proved that. You never even tried to prove that.

If we tell you Islam is a religion of peace...then you smirk at us.

No I don't. You are assuming something that is not true. I understand that a majority of Muslims are peaceful, decent human beings. There are some, even on this forum, that are not peaceful, but they are far from a majority.

But if the faults of your nation, your civilization are pointed out...you merely wash your hands and claim innocence for not being a party.

You accused me of supporting actions that occurred before I was even born. Of course I am innocent of those actions.

Why don't you man up and tell us who you actually support? What you stand for?

I support the UN Declaration of Human Rights. I support each and every person on this planet being allowed those rights. To that end, I support democracy, as that is the best way to ensure those rights. I support working towards peace. I support free speech. I support freedom of religion. I support minimizing needless death.

Anything specific you want my stance on?

Are all "agnostic atheist americans" cynical cowards like your self?

Technically, you are being the cynic here. I am not the one claiming the actions of everyone in the US is motivated by greed and selfishness. I have expressed repeatedly that I think many people are able to look beyond their one short sited self interest.

How am I a coward again? I am willing to but heads with you, and express my atheism in a predominately Muslim forum, and face the questions you have in an effort to bridge a communication gap here. I am willing to examine evidence and reject any belief I have if the evidence proves it wrong!

[ScimitarXEdge]

No, are you?

What's with all these unimportant, uninteresting questions?

It's just Graveyard's attempt to divert focus to redeem feeling humilated defeated and inferior

[Alchemist]

Are you high?

Because half the time your mixing your arguments with other people with mines!

Do you realize that?


Anyway...

Just answer this

Is the war on Afghanistan and Iraq and Libya justified?

[Alchemist]

It's just Graveyard's attempt to divert focus to redeem feeling humilated defeated and inferior

[ScimitarXEdge]

Alchemist, stop posting your bestiality porn, we know you feel down ebcause you can't mate with human women, you don't need to parade it around.

[ozymandias]

68 years or not you are old enough to vote.

I am now. Not 50 years ago. Not 40 years ago.

"Were belived" which turned out to be a lie.

And when that lie was uncovered, people revoked their support. EXACTLY AS THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE.

Saddam was a tyran and not a Muslim despite his Sunni upbringing. His whole family were just like Al-Assad and Al-Gaddafi. You also supported those dictators in the past and help them in power when you removed the Kings in both country.

I did no such thing. My country may have -- and I think it was wrong. We should have set up a democracy at that time.

See, you don't even know about history. Read about conflict between Sunnis from 2006-2007. This is fortunately past but it was you who offered money in return of hatred on fellow Muslim Brothers because you lost control of Al-Anbar, Ramadi and Fallujah. You needed Iraqis to defeat Iraqis. You did never control the whole country at no point. Not even Baghdad. You did not solve any problems you only made the hate toward USA bigger. You know very well what you have created. Fake Iraqi government will fall very soon.

Once again, once the facts came out, I did not support most of these actions.

It is not obvious? You only attacked Iraq because of oil.

False. If it was only for oil, the American public would not have allowed it. The American public was given evidence of human rights violations, and weapons of mass destruction, who were supposedly going to be used in a war of aggression by Iraq.

It was only far later than the evidence came out that this was not as true as we were once told.

You could have attacked Syria, Algeria and other countries who supported Al-Qaeda. But you did not because they had not such rich natural wealth as Iraq. A lot of Iraqis never liked you and still don't like and never will but Al-Qaeda was not strong in Iraq.

Good thing Al-Qaeda is not the only reason Iraq was attacked then, right? Otherwise this might be awkward.

Now it is. Thanks to you. You create your own problems and I have no pity for you if you country face teh consequences of that policy.

Just like 9/11.

Lots of innocent people died. I feel bad for every civilian that dies in a military conflict, or terrorist attack, no matter how justified the action. That is because I am a decent human being.

I am not talking about YOU when I say you but you americans. You are to afraid to see your genocide on wikileads. You did not even see the video I posted of US troops killing civilians for FUN.

You are right. I did not, and will not, have time to watch a 17 minute video, unless you tell me it contains something new, that I am not aware of already.

THE US army knew about this but did NOTHING. Only thanks to Wikileaks the world saw your TRUE face.

Your hypocrits only deserve hate with that policy and view as people.

Which facts are clear? Your genocide, torture, hypocrisy and wrong wars?

Your yes and no answers and pointless excuses and claims of being civilized, human defenders but doing all the opposite in Iraq, rest of Arab world, Afghanistan, supporting fascist governments in Uzbekistan, Africa etc. just because it suit your interest. The same with Mubarak before and Al-Assad before, Pakistan etc.

I'm sorry that you cannot see me as a person, or understand that I agree with you. The US has done some terrible things. I am not denying that.