Ask an American, agnostic and atheist man pretty much anything

[al-arab]

Ok but tell my why there were not more americans who said this is wrong. Saddam was a evil dictator but he did not harm you. You lied to you people and the world and attacked us, destroyed our country, have created conflict between our tribes, and have shown disrespect to other arabs as well.

I don't understand. You do the same in Afghanistan know.

Do you want to attack whole Middle East for oil? You government is corrupt and you divide us arab people. You government support arab dictators who are hated by their peoples (saudis, syrians etc.) but you support them because of only money. And you americans don't see this or ignore it.

Not every american is like your government but you people live in so called "democracy" and you have on your own chosen this tyrans. You people should have a bigger resposibility.

Why do you also don't punish your soldiers who have killed civilians. Wikileaks has proven this! See youtube!

This speaks for it self!

Collateral Murder - Wikileaks - Iraq - YouTube

12 million views!

[ozymandias]

Ok but tell my why there were not more americans who said this is wrong. Saddam was a evil dictator but he did not harm you.

No, but he did violate the rights of human beings. This alone is enough for any moral person to be involved.

That said, at the time of the most recent Iraqi invasion, the public was operating under the information that Saddam *did* harm us -- by supporting the terrorists that attacked us.

Many people said this was wrong, but I suspect that outside the US, the media displayed a bias on reporting.

You lied to you people and the world and attacked us,

Politicians may have. I have done no such thing. Please do not lump me in with them. You are being no different than the people that say that all Muslims are responsible for the attacks on 9-11. You are falsely assuming support for actions I do not agree with.

destroyed our country, have created conflict between our tribes, and have shown disrespect to other arabs as well.

Mistakes have been made, in an attempt to do good, I admit.

I don't understand. You do the same in Afghanistan know.

Actually, Afghanistan is simply still ongoing. You imply the actions in Afghanistan are a new occurrence started after Iraq, when the reality is that both actions were decided upon and started at the same time.

Do you want to attack whole Middle East for oil?

No. I do not. I am not sure of the secret motives of some politicians, but many Americans are against Blood for Oil.

You government is corrupt and you divide us arab people. You government support arab dictators who are hated by their peoples (saudis, syrians etc.) but you support them because of only money.

And many are working to fix that. No violation of human rights should be allowed, but you have to pick fights that are big enough to be worth fighting, small enough to win, and not harmful to your own efforts.

And you americans don't see this or ignore it.

And you are proof that the same can be said on many middle-easterners. You either do not see that these actions are not universally supported by Americans, or you choose to ignore it. I prefer to assume that your media and news sources are biased, and you are all good people at heart, at least for the most part.

Not every american is like your government but you people live in so called "democracy" and you have on your own chosen this tyrans. You people should have a bigger resposibility.

We do have a huge responsibility, and we are working every day to fix things.

Why do you also don't punish your soldiers who have killed civilians. Wikileaks has proven this! See youtube!

I cannot speak for the military, as I am not a member -- but the American public is asking the same questions, and is working to bring military criminals to justice.

This speaks for it self!

Collateral Murder - Wikileaks - Iraq - YouTube

12 million views!

First off, the number of views means nothing. Second off, I already stated I am not going to watch videos, and this is a perfect example of why -- you are trying to convince me of something you have not bothered to find out if I agree or disagree -- and I am not going to spend 20 minutes watching youtube videos. I have better uses of my time.

[al-arab]

I admit that and he was not real muslim although he claimed this. The Bath party were socialist they just claimed to support panarabism!

But what about Iran? What about Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States? What about Syria, Egypt, Yemen etc. Al dictators not liked by their people or us arabs at all whether in Morocco in West or Oman in east!

You are blind and claim to be pretectors of so called democracy and civil rights but you are the biggest criminals in the world. The worst is that you lie and claim to be good people but everyone know this is not true. You are just after money and power but this has ended for you!

They are YOUR politicians. It is YOUR people that have chosen them. Not anybody is. This is hypocrisy!

"Mistakes have been made" you say. How many mistakes have you made in the last 50 years? How many more mistakes can you do under false protext?

Working to fix that? How many, if any have been punished for their crimes against humanity in america? Crimes comitted in Iraq, Afghanistan etc. ?

I am not brainwashed or what you call it. Arabs are clever people (the oldest civilization) we can think self. Everyone can see that you are evil empiralist that are ruled by money and power, not honour, dignity or admit your wrong-doings!

Look, you will soon leave Afghanistan like you stopped support Afghan people in 1989 after Soviets. And you wan't care with the people and caos you have created and left!

I will be asame of most of your people and government chosen by your people!

[ozymandias]

I admit that and he was not real muslim although he claimed this. The Bath party were socialist they just claimed to support panarabism!

But what about Iran? What about Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States? What about Syria, Egypt, Yemen etc. Al dictators not liked by their people or us arabs at all whether in Morocco in West or Oman in east!

You are blind and claim to be pretectors of so called democracy and civil rights but you are the biggest criminals in the world. The worst is that you lie and claim to be good people but everyone know this is not true. You are just after money and power but this has ended for you!

They are YOUR politicians. It is YOUR people that have chosen them. Not anybody is. This is hypocrisy!

And you know what happens? They get voted out and replaced.

"Mistakes have been made" you say. How many mistakes have you made in the last 50 years? How many more mistakes can you do under false protext?

Me? More than I can count. But I always try to fix my mistakes.

Working to fix that? How many, if any have been punished for their crimes against humanity in america? Crimes comitted in Iraq, Afghanistan etc. ?

Many. I don't have exact statistics handy, but it's taken pretty seriously around here.

I am not brainwashed or what you call it.

I did not say brainwashed. What I said was that your news might not be unbiased, and you are not getting the full story, either deliberately, or because of time constraints.

It's either that you are not exposed to the news of anti-war protests, or you are lying about not knowing about them. I choose to assume you are not a dishonest person without evidence to back that up.

Arabs are clever people (the oldest civilization) we can think self. Everyone can see that you are evil empiralist that are ruled by money and power, not honour, dignity or admit your wrong-doings!

Something appears to have been lost in translation. You think that Saddam was not interested in money or power? Or the governments of any Islamic state? You seem to pretend that this is something novel about the US.

Look, you will soon leave Afghanistan like you stopped support Afghan people in 1989 after Soviets. And you wan't care with the people and caos you have created and left!

And this is another instance of you missing something on the news. The reason we have *NOT* left Afghanistan once we elected Obama, is precisely that. The military is attempting to have an organized, structured withdrawal to avoid creating chaos and further problems down the road. Not only that, but you just protested the fact that the troops are still there, and in the same breath bad mouthed them for how they are *NOT* planning on leaving.

I will be asame of most of your people and government chosen by your people!

I am not sure what this means.

There are plenty of problems with a representative democracy, but the problems are still much less severe than other forms of government. At least with democracy, there is an effort made for stability, continuity, preventing tyrants, and insuring everyone is able to exercise their basic rights. No other government can claim that.

[Afghanistan2010]

Your state is terrorizing the world since people know that there is america...

it started with the killing of the red indians ( who bravely resisted you)...

it continued til you got your independence with shedding the blood of people.

it continued and and , til today...and the wish of every one around the world is nothing more than a atom bomb or a earthquake or a tsunami strikes USA.

[ozymandias]

Your state is terrorizing the world since people know that there is america...

it started with the killing of the red indians ( who bravely resisted you)...

it continued til you got your independence with shedding the blood of people.

it continued and and , til today...and the wish of every one around the world is nothing more than a atom bomb or a earthquake or a tsunami strikes USA.

You are welcome to your opinions. Personally, I find them despicable. I would not wish nuclear annihilation on anyone.

[al-arab]

What voted out? You tell me you did not chose Bush and Clinton? All tyrants?

I was speaking about america not you but you are american right? So you have resposnbility also.

Many? Show me? Why do you persecate Wikileaks who reveal your war crimes? Who have been in trial for the killings of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan?

What do you think I am? Do you not thing that I can see American presh and all you americans can see? I see it also but I have experienced how you lie, manipulate, invade, exploit people. Always the same. Always the same mistakes. Always, I did not anything, not my responsibility, I don't control my government.

You know what? The difference between Saddam and other dictators is that you have helped them in power and they have not been chosen by own people. Unlike your governments. So please stop your hypocrisy if you want a serious debat.

You believe that? Your educate Afghans only because they have no other choice. Because of your caos. They prefer to fight their own people because of money. You can't change other people's mentality in 10 years? Their forfathers ancient mentality, customs, religion.

It took Europeans 1000 years to get democracy. For half of it they lived under communism 20 years ago. And you want to transform countries in Middle East and Afghanistan over 10 years only? Are you crazy?

You think Afghanistan will change when you leave in 2-3 years? You really belive that after all you did in the country? Divided people, created new conflicts? Afghanistans fake government can't even defend one self with american presence and you expect them to do it themselves in 3 years time?

And you wonder why we don't look positive on america and your people? Because of ignorant people like you who claim to "know" more than us.

[Toramana]

What voted out? You tell me you did not chose Bush and Clinton? All tyrants?

I was speaking about america not you but you are american right? So you have resposnbility also.

Many? Show me? Why do you persecate Wikileaks who reveal your war crimes? Who have been in trial for the killings of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan?

What do you think I am? Do you not thing that I can see American presh and all you americans can see? I see it also but I have experienced how you lie, manipulate, invade, exploit people. Always the same. Always the same mistakes. Always, I did not anything, not my responsibility, I don't control my government.

You know what? The difference between Saddam and other dictators is that you have helped them in power and they have not been chosen by own people. Unlike your governments. So please stop your hypocrisy if you want a serious debat.

You believe that? Your educate Afghans only because they have no other choice. Because of your caos. They prefer to fight their own people because of money. You can't change other people's mentality in 10 years? Their forfathers ancient mentality, customs, religion.

It took Europeans 1000 years to get democracy. For half of it they lived under communism 20 years ago. And you want to transform countries in Middle East and Afghanistan over 10 years only? Are you crazy?

You think Afghanistan will change when you leave in 2-3 years? You really belive that after all you did in the country? Divided people, created new conflicts? Afghanistans fake government can't even defend one self with american presence and you expect them to do it themselves in 3 years time?

And you wonder why we don't look positive on america and your people? Because of ignorant people like you who claim to "know" more than us.

Intellectual discsusions are beyond the comprehension of camel minds ...go enjoy your harem and bottle of whisky in your Arab shiekhdom....

Who the hell you are to comment on Afghanistan affair Mr Beduine?

[graveyardofempires]

do you like to avoid questions?

[Alchemist]

Not true at all. Morals can be defined without the need for an absolute reference point. My morals are defined off of not infringing upon the rights of others. All humans have the right to choose their own religion -- or lack of religion, and it is infringing upon their rights to impose upon them, through the threat of violence, a religion.

It's surprising to me that you need to have this explained to you this seems to be a fairly obvious fact.

Your absolute reference point is now "the charter of human rights"?

You keep contradicting your self.

Not really half as smart as you think you are.

Even though scientists and philosophers all believe that people are born with an innate sense of morality, you disagree with them. Then when one society defines it's set of morals and ethics, you disagree with them because they don't match against your society's.

Every society has the right to determine their own way of life. In the same vein, if in your society an individual chooses to consume intoxicating drinks and pills, then you grant them the right to kill cells of their bodies. Substitute cells for individuals, and body for society, and the argument is the same. Killing apostates is no different than giving life imprisonment for High Treason. You can argue whether living your whole life in prison is any more moral than being killed, but that is just petty. And you make petty arguments.

[ozymandias]

What voted out? You tell me you did not chose Bush and Clinton? All tyrants?

I was speaking about america not you but you are american right? So you have resposnbility also.

Many? Show me? Why do you persecate Wikileaks who reveal your war crimes? Who have been in trial for the killings of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Once again, I don't. I support them.

What do you think I am? Do you not thing that I can see American presh

What's this word mean?

and all you americans can see? I see it also but I have experienced how you lie, manipulate, invade, exploit people. Always the same. Always the same mistakes. Always, I did not anything, not my responsibility, I don't control my government.

Let's turn the tables. All Muslims are terrorists. All Muslims support the Taliban. All Muslims support suicide bombers.

See? I can stereotype, too.

You know what? The difference between Saddam and other dictators is that you have helped them in power and they have not been chosen by own people.

Almost no dictators are picked by their own people. Most seize power by force.

Unlike your governments. So please stop your hypocrisy if you want a serious debat.

Stop stereotyping and making assumptions about me and we can have an adult conversation.

You believe that? Your educate Afghans only because they have no other choice. Because of your caos. They prefer to fight their own people because of money. You can't change other people's mentality in 10 years? Their forfathers ancient mentality, customs, religion.

What are you even asking?

It took Europeans 1000 years to get democracy. For half of it they lived under communism 20 years ago. And you want to transform countries in Middle East and Afghanistan over 10 years only? Are you crazy?

You are the one upset that efforts are taking too long. Are you upset that it is taking too long, or going too fast? Pick one.

You think Afghanistan will change when you leave in 2-3 years?

Yes and no. I, and many Americans, hope that infrastructure will be in place, and a stable government of the people will be in place, so that we don't leave a power vacuum that invites criminals to seize power, or terrorist organizations from gaining strength.

You really belive that after all you did in the country? Divided people, created new conflicts? Afghanistans fake government can't even defend one self with american presence and you expect them to do it themselves in 3 years time?

What fake government?

And you wonder why we don't look positive on america and your people?

Once again, no. I, and many other Americans, do not.

Because of ignorant people like you who claim to "know" more than us.

Funny. You are the one claiming to know more than me, and ignoring what I actually say.

[ozymandias]

Your absolute reference point is now "the charter of human rights"?

No. There is no absolute reference point. Please try and understand what I actually say, rather than make up straw men.

You keep contradicting your self.

Only because you ignore what I actually write, and deliberately misconstrue what I say.

Not really half as smart as you think you are.

Even though scientists and philosophers all believe that people are born with an innate sense of morality,

They don't. Not even most of them.

you disagree with them. Then when one society defines it's set of morals and ethics, you disagree with them because they don't match against your society's.

Again, nope. I disagree because they are forcing their morals upon others. If everyone in the society chose to follow those morals *of free choice*, I have no problem with them. Since this is not the case, I have a problem with it.

That's my morality.

Every society has the right to determine their own way of life.

Every person has that right, as long as they do not infringe upon others.

In the same vein, if in your society an individual chooses to consume intoxicating drinks and pills, then you grant them the right to kill cells of their bodies. Substitute cells for individuals, and body for society, and the argument is the same.

Next time you have evidence of a fully conscious single cell, let me know.

Killing apostates is no different than giving life imprisonment for High Treason.

Actually, it is, for the most part. In most countries, if you don't like the country, you can leave, and become a citizen of another country -- and any actions against your former country would not be High Treason. If I would rather associate with the UK, I could leave the US, and could not possibly commit treason against it.

By the very definition of apostacy, this is not true. If a Muslim becomes atheist, you call him apostate and many call for his blood.

See the difference? It's as plain as night and day.

You can argue whether living your whole life in prison is any more moral than being killed, but that is just petty. And you make petty arguments.

I'll just ignore yet another personal attack instead of actual arguments on your part. That's all you have? Personal attacks and faulty comparisons?

[khushal]

And you know what happens? They get voted out and replaced.

While I agree with you that the average american citizen or earth citizen for that matter dont wish ill on its fellow man, the problem that al arab and people like him have with america is that amreica is slowly losing its original idea.

While people get voted in and out, the policy the bush administration was enforcing is being enforced by a different man from a different party. It does not really matter if people change, what matters is the change in policy.
the framers of amreica figured they could deconstruct the monarchy and recreate it with checks and balances by creating three branches of governmnet which they imported from the native americans. The Idea was to create a system where the private individual would be in a cooperative with the governmnet that would be of the people, by the people and for the people. At the same time this private individual would have the right and opportunity to rise up and create wealth according to his /her talent and the key is for the private individual to have this right and opportunity without becoming dictatorial.

Today we are witnessing the destruction of this system. The original idea was to prevent a plutacracy, but eventually the eltiists fugure a way out around the system to take it over and create tyranny. You can look back at many empires and see the same pattern. even Soviet Foreign minister Shevardnadze resigned and warned of dictatorship in the soviet union right before its collapse.

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-12-21/news/mn-6903_1_soviet-foreign-policy

If your familiar with pashtun history, khushal khan khattak who was a general in the Moghul army under Shaw Jahan fought against Shah Jahan's son Arengzeb and warned of dictatorship after he imprisoned his father.

Americas interference with other societies is linked to this plutacracy, and the criticism you are witnessing from people like al arab and others is not because they are misinformed but because they are informed(come on this is the information age) and should be expected because it is natural.

Al arabs criticism is not that much different than Thomas Jeffersons criticism of King George.

[R3SISTANC3]

Not true at all. Morals can be defined without the need for an absolute reference point. My morals are defined off of not infringing upon the rights of others. All humans have the right to choose their own religion -- or lack of religion, and it is infringing upon their rights to impose upon them, through the threat of violence, a religion.

It's surprising to me that you need to have this explained to you this seems to be a fairly obvious fact.

You are being intellectually dishonest here. The notion that humans have "rights", is a man made, which is not backed by any natural or scientific dictation.

It is surprising that you admit humans are born amoral, environment and society programs them with moral values, yet you go on to state that humans have certain universal "rights", which itself is a notion dictated by the environment/society you are born into. It is not something you are born with, it is something you are thought by your society.

An intellectually honest atheist would realize the futility of such man made notions and not preach them as absolute "facts".

[al-arab]

My problem with you Ozymandias is that you don't take any responsibility and just marginalize what you did. Don't you understand that you have done it over and over again in the last 50 years? Always the same mistakes? Do you wan't people to belive that you are not hypocrits? Or evil imperalists that only wan't Arab oil?

You supported Taliban in the 1980's togehter with Arab countries. You left the same day the Soviets left and did not care with Afghans. 10 years after you attack them.

You did nothing in Iraq when Saddam was killing the population from the Gulf War until the Iraq War. Why did you not attack other Arab dictatorships?

Why did you attack Libya and not Algeria/Tunisia/Egypt? Only because of oil. That is the truth.

I am talking about your government. Can you not understand the difference between so called democratic eletctions and dictators. I don't remember that you had a dictator in America? Dictators in Arab world were not chosen by their people that is the difference. You are FREE to chose. YOU chose your tyrants, not anyone else. And because of that you have a responsibility!

I am not upset about it taking a long time. We have had a ancient civilization for centuries (the oldest in the world) and we did fine. 50 years of dictatorship will not change that.

What my PROBLEM is, is that those dictators were SPONSORED by you, america. And after 50 years of dictatorship you now attack those same people you helped to power because they don't suit your interest anymore. What HYPOCRISY!

And now you just expect us to get democracy over a period of 5-10 years after you invaded us, divided us, destroyed our infrastructure, oil fields etc.

Why don't you attack North Korea? They were and are a bigger threat than all Arab countries? What are you waiting for? Ah, no oil.