Rethinking Islamic Reform

[Wrayun]

Video

[pukhtana]

Thanks Wrayun. Very cool.


Islam is fine, people need change.

[شمله ور خراساني]

reforming islam means, dissatisfaction with what allah has revealed to us as the religion. And people who seek reform want to satisfy their whims and desires.

[Wrayun]

reforming islam means, dissatisfaction with what allah has revealed to us as the religion. And people who seek reform want to satisfy their whims and desires.

Watch the video, both speakers are against such reform. They wish to get back to the true essence of the teachings without the political aspects of things. They want true scholars, not accountants like Osama, surgeons like Zawahari, small time imams like Aw-Laki, x-Jew converts like Abdullah, and others, giving fatwas to the ignorant masses.

Muhammad ibn Abdal Wahhab was also a reformer of Islam. So "reforming" has many connotations. His people folly was that they got involved with politics, and their teachings are now hijacked by the state of Saudi to further their agendas all over the Muslim world.

Just watch the video.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Watch the video, both speakers are against such reform. They wish to get back to the true essence of the teachings without the political aspects of things. They want true scholars, not accountants like Osama, surgeons like Zawahari, small time imams like Aw-Laki, x-Jew converts like Abdullah, and others, giving fatwas to the ignorant masses.

Muhammad ibn Abdal Wahhab was also a reformer of Islam. So "reforming" has many connotations. His people folly was that they got involved with politics, and their teachings are now hijacked by the state of Saudi to further their agendas all over the Muslim world.

Just watch the video.

I know the two regular clowns who promote reform. They are not the people who call people to quran and sunnah.

And Ibn Abdul Wahhab was not a reformer. He wanted to revive Islam in its most pure and original form without the philosophical heresy. The heresy represented by Tariq Ramadan and Hamza Yusuf.

[Wrayun]

I know the two regular clowns who promote reform. They are not the people who call people to quran and sunnah.

And Ibn Abdul Wahhab was not a reformer. He wanted to revive Islam in its most pure and original form without the philosophical heresy. The heresy represented by Tariq Ramadan and Hamza Yusuf.

And what is pure Islam? The interpretations of Ibn Abdul Wahhab, the hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim? What were all those men and scholars doing before Ibn Abdul Wahhab, they didn't see a need to revive Islam? There is little difference between "reviving" Islam and "reforming" Islam. He tried to reform Islam by "reviving" it.

You need philosophy, philosophy is natural, we are told even in the Quran to ponder on our existence. Did we create ourselves or did we come out of nothing? THAT IS PHILOSOPHY, that is in the Quran.

[Dust]

You need philosophy, philosophy is natural, we are told even in the Quran to ponder on our existence. Did we create ourselves or did we come out of nothing? THAT IS PHILOSOPHY, that is in the Quran.

This, I can associate with.

[شمله ور خراساني]

And what is pure Islam?

That which is in quran and sahih hadeeth. Islam based on the most authentic sources, and in accordance with the understanding of the early generation of Muslims. Not that of people who emerged 300 years after the death of prophet muhammad sal allahu alayi wasallam.

The interpretations of Ibn Abdul Wahhab

How many of his books have you read? What does constitute his interpretation? What did he say or imply that wasn't already established in the books?

, the hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim?

And all other authentic ahadeeth from the other books like Abu Dawood and Ibn Majah.

What were all those men and scholars doing before Ibn Abdul Wahhab,

Depends on who you are talking about.

they didn't see a need to revive Islam?

Ibn Abdul wahhab, as I said was not a solo artist as some people like to portray him. He was a midget on the shoulder of giants. He did not produce anything new. The challenge is upon the innovators to prove that Ibn Abdul Wahhab has produced anything new which was alien to Islam before him.

There is little difference between "reviving" Islam and "reforming" Islam. He tried to reform Islam by "reviving" it.

You are playing with words because you want to argue for the sake of argument.

You need philosophy,

I am a fervent consumer of greek philosophy. I love it. However, my religion is founded upon quran and sunnah. Not what Aristotle or Epicurus said.

philosophy is natural,

Not when it contradicts quran and sunnah.

we are told even in the Quran to ponder on our existence.

That doesn't mean we should reject clear quranic ayat and authentic ahadeeth and go dive into Aristotles meta-physics in order to create a new creed which is in total contrast to the beliefs as they were revealed to us by allah via his messenger sal allahu alayhi wassalam.

Did we create ourselves or did we come out of nothing?

The answer is in quran. http://www.pashtunforums.com/religio...reate-us-6920/

THAT IS PHILOSOPHY

It is philosophy. But when it contradicts Islam, its rubbish and need not to be used in order to corrupt the minds of muslims and tell them that Aristotle knew more about attributes of allah. ,

that is in the Quran.

give me one verse of the quran where it says that we should philosophize outside the boundaries of that which is revealed and contradict quranic ayat.

[Wrayun]

شمله ور خراساني;

That which is in quran and sahih hadeeth. Islam based on the most authentic sources, and in accordance with the understanding of the early generation of Muslims. Not that of people who emerged 300 years after the death of prophet muhammad sal allahu alayi wasallam.

And all other authentic ahadeeth from the other books like Abu Dawood and Ibn Majah.

Who decideds what is authentic, how do we know that what is considered authentic isn't perverted? Let me ask you this, are these men, who record and say these things, are they infallable? How are ahadeeths different than the sayings of John, Peter, and Luke?

Ibn Abdul wahhab, as I said was not a solo artist as some people like to portray him. He was a midget on the shoulder of giants. He did not produce anything new. The challenge is upon the innovators to prove that Ibn Abdul Wahhab has produced anything new which was alien to Islam before him.

The problem is with his followers and the way they do things. Their ways of "revival" are self-defeating because zealotry always ends up loosing. Their hypocrisy is also obvious when they enjoy many things which they make illegal or haram for others. For example interaction and friendship with Kaffris.

You are playing with words because you want to argue for the sake of argument.

Nope, his revival was a reform, at least of the Islam that was present in his time.

You are playing with words because you want to argue for the sake of argument.

Not when it contradicts quran and sunnah.

I am a fervent consumer of greek philosophy. I love it. However, my religion is founded upon quran and sunnah. Not what Aristotle or Epicurus said.

That doesn't mean we should reject clear quranic ayat and authentic ahadeeth and go dive into Aristotles meta-physics in order to create a new creed which is in total contrast to the beliefs as they were revealed to us by allah via his messenger sal allahu alayhi wassalam.

It is philosophy. But when it contradicts Islam, its rubbish and need not to be used in order to corrupt the minds of muslims and tell them that Aristotle knew more about attributes of allah. ,

give me one verse of the quran where it says that we should philosophize outside the boundaries of that which is revealed and contradict quranic ayat.

You accused Tariq Ramadan and Hamza Yusuf of philosphical heresy, which philosphical elements they make use of which are contradictory to the Quran?

[Maiwand]

Watch the video, both speakers are against such reform. They wish to get back to the true essence of the teachings without the political aspects of things. They want true scholars, not accountants like Osama, surgeons like Zawahari, small time imams like Aw-Laki, x-Jew converts like Abdullah, and others, giving fatwas to the ignorant masses.

Muhammad ibn Abdal Wahhab was also a reformer of Islam. So "reforming" has many connotations. His people folly was that they got involved with politics, and their teachings are now hijacked by the state of Saudi to further their agendas all over the Muslim world.

Just watch the video.

If you say that Islam is not political or has no political part, then you haven't understood the meaning of La illaha ilala, Mohamamd rasool Allah. You should study the real islam, from the Quran and Sunnah, then you won't talk like this. Because Islam is at its heart a revolutionary and political deen (way of life). A muslim has to first reject all the Tawagheet (idols, ideologies, systems, isms and schism) and then accept Allah (swt) as the sole lawgiver, God, sovereign, judge, etc.

[Wrayun]

If you say that Islam is not political or has no political part, then you haven't understood the meaning of La illaha ilala, Mohamamd rasool Allah. You should study the real islam, from the Quran and Sunnah, then you won't talk like this. Because Islam is at its heart a revolutionary and political deen (way of life). A muslim has to first reject all the Tawagheet (idols, ideologies, systems, isms and schism) and then accept Allah (swt) as the sole lawgiver, God, sovereign, judge, etc.

By political I meant in the context of todays affairs in the Muslim world. Almost all scholars are influenced by their governments. So instead of truly addressing some of these issues, they have to appease their present governments when it comes to Islamic/Muslim decrees.

As for true Islam, real Islam, authentic Islam etc. everyone claims their Islam is true. And just because someone says their is, doesn't make it so. And just because you don't agree with someone, doesn't make their Islam false or fake. So it is naive to suggest someone to learn "true" Islam. I can say the same to you: Maiwand, I don't agree with you, you need to learn "true" Islam (the Islam I subscribe too, otherwise it's fake).

In other words, it's best to present your case, your argument, without having to say learn "true" Islam. If you speak the truth, it will naturally stand out from falsehood.

[Maiwand]

By political I meant in the context of todays affairs in the Muslim world. Almost all scholars are influenced by their governments. So instead of truly addressing some of these issues, they have to appease their present governments when it comes to Islamic/Muslim decrees.

As for true Islam, real Islam, authentic Islam etc. everyone claims their Islam is true. And just because someone says their is, doesn't make it so. And just because you don't agree with someone, doesn't make their Islam false or fake. So it is naive to suggest someone to learn "true" Islam. I can say the same to you: Maiwand, I don't agree with you, you need to learn "true" Islam (the Islam I subscribe too, otherwise it's fake).

In other words, it's best to present your case, your argument, without having to say learn "true" Islam. If you speak the truth, it will naturally stand out from falsehood.

What I say is based on the Quran and the Sunnah, so it is the TRUTH. As a muslim you have to believe that, otherwise there is a problem with you belief or your understanding of the Quran and Sunnah.

And your point about the governments in the muslim world, we all know that those governments are not ruling with the laws of Allah (swt), so they are kaafir governments. If you want to reform those governments and their politics, you should reform their corruptcy and bring them back to Islam, you shouldn't reform Islam, because Islam doesn't need a reform, it's perfect. The people need reform, Islam doesn't need it.

[Badlun]

Islam is only a religion(faith+worship+morality)
Where is the political system of Islam? When and where it was implemented?

[Maiwand]

Islam is only a religion(faith+worship+morality)
Where is the political system of Islam? When and where it was implemented?

The political system was first implemented, when the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) established the first Islamic state in Medina after the Hijra from Mecca. After he died, the four Khaliefs established the institutions of the Islamic state. The institution of the Khalifate existed untill 1924, when the Ottoman Khalifate was removed by the western powers, in collaboration with jews, free masons, nationalists, secularists, disbelievers, munafiqs like Atta Turk,

[Saif ul Haq]

It's like watching dumb and dumber the movie, only problem in this one is we can't really decided who is dumb as both of them out do each other in absurdity

Let's not even waste our time going through each segments of the video, the title itself is sufficient enough to dissect

"Rethinking Islamic Reform"

What's rethinking? Rethinking means to reconsider, or the act of changing ones mind

Reform implies to rectify or to improve what's unsatisfactory

Now we combine all this, it would mean "Act of changing ones mind about Islaam and improving what's unsatisfactory"

Now doesn't this clearly expose these Munafiqeen and what they're actually trying to do to Islaam?

I ask Allaah sincerely to guide these individuals to Islaam and to destroy their inner hatred towards our perfect Deen