Islam as a religion or complete way of life

[Badlun]

same here............i think of islam as my way of life......

i printed out some of the major things that are considered a sin in islam and i look at it every day...and tell my self that i wont do any of the things on the list or at least wont try to do any of the things on the list..:D

It is also morality or ethics and I appreciate it.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Osho, you are saying that we should reject all verses of Qur'an that are commands of Allah to implement laws given by him.

If we would do that, then we would end up in a corrupt and vile system such as Pakistan & Afghanistan. People are Muslims, but they are governed by secular laws nobody really believes in or respects. And corruption will be prevalent.

THe reason why secularism works for non-Muslims in Europe is because they never had a Shari'ah, a divine law. Their laws were based on Roman and Greek laws.

THey have always re-invented new laws. They like their own laws and democracy is the state-religion. They believe in democracy. Evendough democracy have braught Hitler Musolini, war in Iraq etc, they still believe in it.

You want Muslims to reject their religion and copy-cat non-Muslims because you converted to the religion of non-Muslims. And now you argue that Islam never was a political system?

[Badlun]

Pakistan and Afghanistan are considered to be the best Muslim countries from islam point of view. Here Islam as a way of life is mostly practised. If you consider it as corrupt and vile then its a big paradox.

second can you tell me any ideal Islamic country in todays world or in the whole history of islam except upto Hazrat Umar?

West has sepaarted religion from politics , economy , culture, society etc and thats the secret of the development of the West. If muslims want to me materially prosperous and developed like the west then they must follow the way they got the development other wise there is no way out. Religion can develop you spiritually but not economically or materially.

Laws must be re invented , created and changed according to the circumstances. This is another flaw in extremist Muslim approach that they consider the 1400 years old injunctions( I dont call them laws as these are not systematic) permanent. they must know that the every thing permanent is this world is the CHANGE. This is the spirit of the reconstruction of the religious thought in Islam as proposed by Dr Iqbal.

I never said that I have converted to another religion. So please dont be this much short tempered. Just by reading few posts dont jump to the conclusions. Dont do the traditional way of Mullas to issue the fatwas of Kufr immediately.

I say that Islam was never a political system. If you think it was then prove it with evidence please.

[شمله ور خراساني]

West has sepaarted religion from politics , economy , culture, society etc and thats the secret of the development of the West. If muslims want to me materially prosperous and developed like the west then they must follow the way they got the development other wise there is no way out. Religion can develop you spiritually but not economically or materially.

Please visit the thread I opened for you where you can answer questions.

And please refrain from posting baseless stuff that are absolutely not true. At least have the courtesy of referring to academic literature from where you have gathered the gospel of your religion.

[Badlun]

Dont worry bro I ll be soon trying to reply to the questions you have raised. But I have also requested you that you may prove that Islam is a complete way of life an dspecially prove it that Islam has a complete political system and it was or is ever implemented?

And please note very clearly that I am not not preaching any religion here rather I am trying to separate religion from non religious and secular stuff. For me my religion is Islam which is confined to faith+worship and morality. And I never preached here Islamic faith, worship or morality as these are my private matters and I ll discuss it if required or asked by some one.

[شمله ور خراساني]

democracy and secularism is a religion. Many prominent sociologists have pointed out this phenomenon.

Whether you like it or not, you are here preaching a religion.

[Dinosaur Khan]

Islam never claimed to be complete code of life, this concept developed later.
In Quran there may not be material about mathematics, physics, chemistry blah blah but it encourages you to study, research & explore phenomenons i.e it does not spoon feed you, it encourages you to find it by urself. A ready-made book of chemistry or physics revealed on mohamad would have been never understood.

[Badlun]

As you are asking to give refrences to what I say, the same I request you too that where Democracy and secularism were declared as religions.

I so far dont give any reference because almost all my statments are based on suggestions and I dont try to oprove any thing. These are just my poersonal ideas and when I ll refer to some one else I ll definitely give the required reference.

[Abu Hurayrah]

Salam aleikom wruno aw khwayndo

Osho, I would like to comment on your posts if you don't mind. If you truly studied the Islamic sciences how come you do not know anything about the Shariah in the times of the companions of the prophet (pbuh), the Shariah and government of Umar ibn Khattab (ra) and the other Tabi'in ? Another example is the governance of Andalusia and the period when Islaam was not only a system the other nations looked up to, but also a believe which attracted billions of people. If you are suggesting that Islaam does not teach you any sciences, physics or mathematics, then you are wrong as well, because learning has two categories.

- Primary knowledge (obligatory sciences, which is Islaam, Aqeedah, Tawheed, Qur'aan, Ulum al Hadith etc.
- Secondary knowledge which includes all the other sciences like mathematics, physics, biology, etc.

And in a time when the mass of the Muslims have a lack of the secondary sciences, then it becomes fardhul ayn upon them to learn and educate themselves in those fields.

I hope you understood the points I made, my English is pretty bad.
Throughout your entire posts you generalized the issue of Islaam and the Muslims as a whole, while the Muslims are not representatives of Islaam, not the Afghans, nor the Arabs nor the Indonesians or the Pakistanis. Islaam is not based on felaan aw bestaan but on the Qur'aan and the Sunnah. ''Qaalallah and Qaala rasul'' Nothing more, nothing less.

The prove that Islaam is a complete system, not only a way of life, is the fact that the prophet (s.a.w) himself implemented the Shariah in Maccah and so did the Khulafa Ar Rashidin.

Allah swt, says in the Qur'aan al Majid the following.

'' wa mallam Yahkum bimaa anzalallaahu fa ulaa'ika humuzaalimun ''
transliteration is as follows: ''And if any fails to Judge by what Allah hath revealed, the are wrongdoers''

And in the other aya Allah says '' wa mallam Yahkum bimaa anzalallaahu fa ulaa'ika humul Kaafirun ''
''...those are the unbeleivers''

These ayaat you can read in Surah al Maidah.
And these are just two ayaat about this, there are much more ayaat which can be provided as prove. And prove they are.

The Qur'aan and Sunnah implements the Hadd punishments, yes. And cutting of the hand of a thief is ordered in the Qur'aan by Allah, not by an imaginary Mullah. But a person must have the proper knowledge about Islaam or at least know the pillars and fundamentals of Islaam. The saying that any thief will lose a hand in a Shariah law is a false statement. Only if the thief stole a big amount. You won't read this in the Qur'aan,
but you will read it in the narrations of the prophet peace and blessings be upon him, because he was the one who explained the last testament of our creator to us.

A statement is always falsified with.

- Qur'aan
- Sunnah
- Sunnah of the Sahaba
- Ijmaa'
- Qiyaas


And the Shariah is primarily based on these factors. And for a person to present himself as more knowledgeable than his/her creator is the real paradox here. The statement that Islaam was not a political system contradicts all five. And the statement is baatil. Islaam does not forbid you to live in this century nor to isolate yourself from the society.
Death penalty is not systematic? The majority of the earth inhabitants want the dead penalty, and the fact that the Taliban did not have a decent chair or guest room, does not mean that the death penalty in other parts of the world is a beautiful experience for the one who is sentenced. You should know better instead of generalizing and comparing the true Islaam with Muslims or their actions. The Qur'aan is for instance also a book of law, you can find the law for divorce, inheritance, Jihad, theft, Riba, murder, fornication, adultery and even moral laws. And the best of which the final messenger (pbuh) has thought us, because he was sent as a rahma upon the worlds, and he was also sent, to improve the manners and characters of the people. And your points about the battle of jamal, Siffin, Karballah, it is true that some Sahaba had their disputes with each other, but if you where to study the history of these battle, you would never dare to criticize the Amir ul Mu'minin of that era.

The prophet peace and blessings be upon him stated in a narration the following.

“The Caliphate of Prophecy will last thirty years; then Allah will give the rule of His Kingdom to whomever He wills.”

Narrated in (Sunan Abu Dawood)

And all the calamities which started after the assassination of Uthman ibn Affan (r.a) where predicted by the prophet (s.a.w). Does an uprising of war mongers and khawaarij invalidate a divinely revealed scripture and the Elaahi ahkaam? By Allah not in a single way. Those where important lessons which we where thought and as I said, the prophet warned the believers against. And the ending of those hypocrites who started causing fitnah between the believers is known to all of us. Thus, no the Shariah did not fail in a single way, and this is not even a valid argument. The fact that all the predictions of the prophet peace and blessings be upon him turned out to be true, determines that the prophet (pbuh) was not speaking from himself, but he was inspired by Allah the Almighty.

If Islam was to be followed just for 500 coming years, then surely, our prophet, the trustworthy and the truthful Muhammad s.a.w. would tell us, Allah would inform us, but no, Allah assured us death, and he assured us resurrection, and he never fails his promise.


As salam alaykom

[Badlun]

I dont mind if some friend comment on my post rather I welcome it fpr generating healthing discussion with the spirit of learning and sharing

Few years of the Prophet or upto the era of hazrat Umar and then few years more when Arab Muslims were ruling Spain first does not count much in the more than 1400 years of Islam. Second in all these governments only the religion of Islam was not applied but also the local Arab practices were too involved. The religion was kept limited to religious affairs and for day to day affairs other models and practices were adopted. Also at that time there was no the present day concept of democracy and such was not applicable.

Billions of people were attracted either by sword or by the religion as the people had no other option but to embrace Islam or they liked the religious beliefs, mode of worship or moral standards of the Arab Muslims of that time. At that time Arabs had the power and thats why their religion or social system and culture also had the dominance. But that was arab culture and society not the religion of Islam which was adopted by the conquered nations. And yes people like today were deceived by the slogan that Arab culture is equivalent to the religion and the people had to even adopt the language , dress and other social patterns of Arabs in the name of Islam.

I liked your division of Primary and secondary Sciences. This is what I discuss here. Separation of religion(Primary sciences as you call it) and non religious stuff( secondary) . this is exactly what I mean. Dont consider that for example Physics is also Islam. Islam is religion not science or politics or social sciences or natural sciences.

I agree that the religion of Islam may be learnt from Quran and Sunna but the religion. Please dont mix it with other spheres of life.

Islam as a system in books is one thing and Islam in practice is another thing. You may find some aspects of politics, economics, culture etc in books but practically you dont see it as the main purpose of Islam is being a religion to cater for the beliefs, worship and some personal morality of its believers not to make them poilticians, scientists, economists, poets, writers, technicians, doctors, engineers etc . All these belong to secular or non religious aspects of life.

Once these taliban and other terrorists and extremists understand this point, they wont kill innocent people for the implementation of the so called Sharia which has political, economic and cultural underpinnings, rather they will concentrate on the spiritual aspects as faith, worshipping and morality like other religions as christianity, budhism, etc which only and only attand to religious affairs of its believers and dont indulge in politics etc.

[Abu Hurayrah]

I dont mind if some friend comment on my post rather I welcome it fpr generating healthing discussion with the spirit of learning and sharing

I totally agree

Few years of the Prophet or up to the era of hazrat Umar and then few years more when Arab Muslims were ruling Spain first does not count much in the more than 1400 years of Islam. Second in all these governments only the religion of Islam was not applied but also the local Arab practices were too involved. The religion was kept limited to religious affairs and for day to day affairs other models and practices were adopted. Also at that time there was no the present day concept of democracy and such was not applicable.

I do not agree with these words and here is why.

- You compare Islaam to Democracy or whatever other ideology or system. That is wrong, since Islaam is the only religion (according to Islaam, the true religion) which gives answers to religious, moral, ethical, psychological and political problems. Islaam gives answers to the core questions in life for all the people who are born with the natural fitrah and Islaam is acceptable for every human or Jinn.

You should not start about Christianity, since the Old Testament and even the New Testament is full with laws, the law of Mozes for example and countless warnings not to corrupt or dismiss the Law of God.

(We off course believe that the bible is corrupted and it's a fact, but that's another discussion) The fact that the Christians do not follow their law, they neglect every aspect and understanding of their religion, and adopt the Democracy which you favor, we Muslims should also neglect the true understanding of our religion and neglect our Deen, and adopt Democracy as a divine or perfect system above the Shariah of Allah which he revealed trough his Anbiyaa (prophets)? No.


The fact that people do not have a good understanding of history, the Shariah and other sciences within does not mean that a system is wrong. Because that is what you are suggesting, let's imitate the Christians, they chose Democracy above the Shariah of Jezus and Mozes peace be upon them, why won't the Muslims? Is living by the truth a synonym for favoring man made laws above the law of Allah only because the Christians can do whatever they like and don't have beards and their women do not exaggerate in covering their 'Awrah?


Tell us the reason why Shariah is not also a political system, since I gave you in my previous post clear ayaat from the Qur'aan which proves it. If the Shariah was not implemented fully or for a long period, does that mean that the Shariah is not meant for politics? Do you see the contradiction here? If I have to make a comparison, then it's like telling someone, Communism is not meant to rule a country with because it failed as a system or was not accepted by the people. (even though I agree that communism isn't an ideology to rule a country or the world with)


You said that those governments (you mean in the era of the Prophet peace and blessing be upon him and Umar ibn Khattab (r.a) and the reign of Spain, in the first two, there is a consensus that the Shariah was fully applied, the fact that people had their cultural customs does not invalidate anything, because cultural customs which don't contradict the teachings of Islaam are accepted and there is nothing wrong with them. As for Andalusia, the unbelievers where obliged to pay a special tax called Jizyya which is prescribed in the Shariah, what do you call that?

The Muslims on the other hand, where obliged to pay the Zakaat. The religion was not limited for religious affairs, but the religion imposes a law on all other aspects of society, and that is how Shariah works. A person cannot just make up some laws and validate them. In Islaam, each ruler or Khalifah has advisors and Ulamaa (scholars). And the scholars are the heirs of prophets. If this idea sounds strange to you, or you don't accept it for any particular reason, it does not add up if you try to impose it on us telling us that Shariah is just for religion, and religion is a private thing you practice behind closed doors and the rest is Democracy. In this case, you misunderstood Islaam as a whole.

Billions of people were attracted either by sword or by the religion as the people had no other option but to embrace Islam or they liked the religious beliefs, mode of worship or moral standards of the Arab Muslims of that time. At that time Arabs had the power and thats why their religion or social system and culture also had the dominance. But that was arab culture and society not the religion of Islam which was adopted by the conquered nations. And yes people like today were deceived by the slogan that Arab culture is equivalent to the religion and the people had to even adopt the language , dress and other social patterns of Arabs in the name of Islam.

You have to be more careful here, billions of people where attracted (converted?) by the sword to islaam? The fact that the Muslims destroyed the armies of kings and emperors was the fact that they opposed Islaam. Islaam is in our minds the only system which is valid and the only religion that will prevail. The fact that the Muslim armies attacked other civilizations was because they wanted to bring Islaam there and also to free it's Muslim inhabitants from the humiliation which they where endured with. The Mujahidin did not kill non combatants and neither did they burn or destroy their houses or places of worship. They where even prohibited of chopping of a tree when they where in the Darul Harb. Allah subhana wa ta'ala tells us in the Qur'aan.

''Laa Ikra' fid din'' There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. (Al Baqarah 56)

I don't know why the Arab culture, the slogan or whatever the Arabs or the Turks did during their Khilafah should be a result of the Shariah which was in charge in the Khilaafah of the Rashidin or the prophet peace and blessing be upon him. Not a single widow in as far as Iraq had to be worried about a house, food or protection.

I liked your division of Primary and secondary Sciences. This is what I discuss here. Separation of religion(Primary sciences as you call it) and non religious stuff( secondary) . this is exactly what I mean. Dont consider that for example Physics is also Islam. Islam is religion not science or politics or social sciences or natural sciences.

Don't get me wrong, you portray my words totally wrong, because I never approved of the separation of the two sciences. In fact, the hukm of fardhul ayn which I told you is derived from the first science, and that is the science of Islaam. Because for a Muslim, to beleive that Islaam is the truth, be convinced of it, there is no need to separate anything, because they depend on each other. The reason why you brought this up is, you think that religion and politics should be separated, but again, that is what YOU think, and your, mine, or the thinking of any other individual is of no means because the evidence is stated in the Qur'aan and practiced by his prophets. These so called dogma's are instructed by the same people who deny the existence of Allah.

The reason why the Muslims failed to rule with the Shariah is because of a few reasons.


- War, tribulation of the Muslims and Muslim lands

- A lack of religious knowledge, due to secularists and democracy fans

- The wrong education of Islaam, being indulged in sects etc. And even mocking at the Islaam.


Why did the prophet peace be upon him succeeded in this and the Muslims today can't?

It is simple, the prophet (s.a.w.) educated his followers (Sahaba) in three manners.

1) Tarbiyyah (with the Qur'aan and Sunnah)

2) Tasfiyyah (purification of the true Aqeedah of Islaam from false ideologies)

3) Tazkiyyah (the process in which a person purifies himself/herself and his/her Islamic creed according to the Qur'aan and Sunnah).

And Allah informed us in the Qur'aan telling us:

''Innallaaha Laa Yughayyeru maa bi qawmin hattaa yughayyeru maa bi anfusihim''
transliteration: '' Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves.''

And from your words I understand as if there is a conflict between being an engineer or a writer and Islaam, but Islaam encourages us to learn about the world, about the nations, marry people from other places, and the first aya of the Qur'aan even began with ''read'' (Iqrah).

I agree that the religion of Islam may be learnt from Quran and Sunna but the religion. Please dont mix it with other spheres of life.

I think a person can NEVER do what you are suggesting, and it is not even logical. You claim that the secondary sciences which I talked about are the main purpose in life, and Islaam is something you can preach at your home with some candle light. That is simply not true. A person which is convinced of Islaam, can never accept this, because this is living for the dunya and dying as a Muslim ? In contrary to this, It is living with and by Islaam, and dying as a muslim, maybe as an engineer, doctor, mathematician, biloogist, teacher, writer or scolar etc. This should be the mentality of a muslim(a).

Accepting that Islaam is just a beleif and neglecting the facts and ahkaam, and orders of Allah and his prophet, is a pretty poor way of being a Muslim.

Islam as a system in books is one thing and Islam in practice is another thing. You may find some aspects of politics, economics, culture etc in books but practically you dont see it as the main purpose of Islam is being a religion to cater for the beliefs, worship and some personal morality of its believers not to make them politicians, scientists, economists, poets, writers, technicians, doctors, engineers etc . All these belong to secular or non religious aspects of life.

Nobody prohibited economy, science, poetry etc. And the fact that you and I did not experienced the Shariah, and that we saw a lot of faasiq Muslims in our lives, does not mean that we need to rewrite the Qur'aan or rewrite the Sunnah just to be able to tell the Kuffar , look at me, I am a Muslim but I refuse to acknowledge the Shariah as the ideal law.

Once these Taliban and other terrorists and extremists understand this point, they wont kill innocent people for the implementation of the so called Sharia which has political, economic and cultural underpinnings, rather they will concentrate on the spiritual aspects as faith, worshipping and morality like other religions as christianity, budhism, etc which only and only attand to religious affairs of its believers and dont indulge in politics etc.

The blood of the Muslims is already shed for quite a while, the people who prosecuted the Muslims are the example of people Allah told us about:

'' And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islâmic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever." (Surah Al baqarah).

They will never think good of you, until you adopt their morals and way of live. That's a simple conclusion.
And dear brother/sister, whatever I said is not personally to you, I just gave examples and what doors can be opened by such misleading idea's.

wsalam

[Abu Hurayrah]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxtVTdsaCTE

[Badlun]

I never compared Islam to Democracy etc. This is totally against what I think to compare Islam to democracy. My basic point is that Islam is religion and Democracy is a political system and both are two different things. For religions we have Islam , for politics we have democracy and for culture we have Pashtunwali.

Please show where Islam give us a complete system in politics, economics etc. Islam give us only few guidelines for politics , economics etc which have mainly moral underpinnings.

Old testament and new testament again have some moral principles but not political or economic systems.

Democracy is a better political system. I have never said that its either divine or perfect. Yes religion is divine. Shariah only guides you in beliefs, matters of worship and morality and few basic guidelines for other speheres of life from ethical point of view.

Christians have made christianity only a religion and you see how developed they are. We muslims must follow others in their good things.
Islam was never implemented as a complete political or economic system specially after hazrat Umar because its not meant beyond a religion. The whole progress of Islam is in the sector of religion not other fields. In spain it was a Muslim rule but it was not the rule of Islam. Jizya is a controversial issue and we can discuss it some where else.

If you consider the dictators of Umayyads and Abassids etc as your caliphs and heroes then it will be a big stigma on the face of Islam.They were just arab rulers and used Islam for the expansion of their empire. Yes the religious sufis and scholars attracted the people towards the religion not to the system of the heridetary dictators.

If you accept other cultures and sciences separately then we have no need to discuss further. This is the point which I want to explain it to you. Accept other cultures an dsciences and systems where they suit muslims. Yes a Muslim as a muslim by religion may not accept any thing against Islamic beliefs. modes of worship and morality.

What stages you mentioned of the Prophet education system are all spiritual or religious. He never trained people in politics, economics, sciences or technology. Muslism have problems in this world because they dont accept or implement the modern ideas of education and politics. For religious non compliance they will have spiritual problems or the punishment in the life after death.