If God exists...

[Roshina]

Dust: Prove to me God exists.

Seen Nun Gaaf Ray*: Look at the universe around you, look at the fixed laws, look at the perfect balance. Do you really think all of this came into being randomly and on its own?

Dust: The problem here is one of perspective. You're looking at the universe from your perspective instead of looking at yourself from the universe's perspective. You say that there must be a God because He has placed the earth at such a distance from the sun that life can thrive but I say that the very reason life evolved on and adapted to this earth is due to the earth's distance from the sun and the present or 'favorable' conditions for life here. Life must be abundant in this massive universe. Look at the world around you. Look how islands are formed. I look at volcanic and coral islands and admire the music of nature while you will claim that it's just "random".

Just to add to this in some elementary terms:

Many of us argue that if God didn't exist, we humans wouldn't exist; we also argue that if God didn't exist, we wouldn't have the necessary elements absolutely essential for survival (e.g., water, oxygen, food). But can it not be that if life was really important and we really HAD to survive and live, we'd have OTHER means? Perhaps we wouldn't need oxygen, then, and need something else that'd enable us to exist and breathe and survive. No? Life would just be far more differently than that.

Of course, then we can say, "Well, yeah, even then, God would have been the sole provider and sustainer. You wouldn't be living unless He willed it so." One: We can't prove that; two: That's not the point. The point is that it (where does oxygen come from? Who provides our food? Who decided we NEED food and water to live?) is not a plausible argument for God's existence.

I believe the best argument the atheists have is: If God created the universe, who created God? Or how did God come into being? The theists don't have a good explanation for this, as their only answer is: "It's illogical to ask where God came from." How's that illogical? True, the chain HAS to break somewhere (that is, Z was created by Y was created by X was created by ...), but why're we deciding that it breaks right at the moment God comes up in the discussion? The universe cannot sustain itself, the universe can't be originated by itself -- but God can be? How and why? And how do we know this?

Ultimately, though, the reason many theists believe in God is that we NEED someone to rely on; we NEED hope, we NEED comfort, we NEED to know that something good will happen to us after all the hell we go through in life. And this is when the argument shifts to: Which deity to worship and praise? Which religion to follow and practice? How do you decide? Faith? . . . For quite a lot of us, yes.

[Wrayun]

while in another universe....

Brian: Woof! Woof!

Dust: Hey it's the Griffins family dog. Since you are here, what's your take?

Brian: Well Dust, the problem here is of perspective. The theists are looking at the universe from their perspective instead of looking at themselves from the universe's perspective. Theists can say that there must be a God because He has placed the earth at such a distance from the sun that life can thrive but I say that the very reason life evolved on and adapted to this earth is due to the earth's distance from the sun and the present or 'favorable' conditions for life here. Life must be abundant in this massive universe. Look at the world around you. Look how islands are formed. I look at volcanic and coral islands and admire the music of nature while you will claim that it's just "random". Woof!

Dust: Well first you need to prove that life has evolved on other planets before presenting that argument. If life is abundant then where is it? Surely such life would have existed before our planet came out of its biogenesis stage, and would have evolved way before ours. Where are they, playing hiding and seek under Martian icescapes? The theists believe this planet is special (a miracle like the big bang). You need to prove that it isn't for that argument to work. Your "must be" doesn't equate to fact. Theists never claimed that these things are random. If anything, those who don't believe in a God project the idea that all things are random, as in this very universe. You just failed to apply the logic of perspective to your own argument. What you might consider to be natures fine music could be as disturbing to another as one passing gas.

Brian: The theist thinks that since the universe has to have a creator, it's God. But we end up with the same problem again. Where did God come from? Woof!

Dust: What would you call any creator of the universe if not God? God is just a word that defines a set of characteristics. Same thing with the word Allah. Where did the universe come from?

Brian: If there is a single God who was not created, he has to have an origin. If the theist say the vast and magnificent universe has to have a creator, why doesn't the same rule apply for the vast and magnificent God? He is truly great, but He has to have an origin, which is something he has shied away from in his holy books and instead, has given incorrect scientific information. Woof!

Dust: Because the universe was created. We know that already, it's called the big bang (a theory, but one that most agree upon). We can go as far back as the very micro-sec when the universe was conceived. It went through stages of creation. It is a FACT that the universe is a CREATED THING. When it comes to God, no such evidence exist. Thus your argument fails when applied to a "God". God holy books are not scientific, nor could the early man understand any thing that could be defined as scientific. If you were to drop a manual describing how to build a microprocessor in the midst of the Amazon, do you really think that the natives will understand it or could benefit from it? If I was in God's place, I would communicate with them simple things (a guidance towards civility) that could lead them to a point where they might one day be able to create a microprocessor without me having to show them.

Brian: So a self-sufficient universe has to have a creator but a self-sufficient and lone creator does not need a creator? Where did the Creator come from? Woof!

Dust: The theist look at it this way: We exist, then God (a creator) must exist. Nothing begets nothing (that's science). You can rule out infinite regress because that doesn't solve anything. We have to come to a conclusion that something always had to have existed. It is the only possible explanation without going into an infinite circle. Thus, if something always existed, it doesn't require a creator.

Brian: So a self-originating and self-sufficient universe cannot exist but a self-sufficient and self-originating deity can exist? Woof!

Dust: The theists doesn't claim that God is self-originating. Even in self-origination creation is a required process (like the universe). The theist claim is that God just is, was, and will be. The universe wasn't, we know that, it will have an end too (big crunch or big rip). All created things must come to pass.

Brian: This is fruitless. Woof!

Dust: Then why even bother?

Brian: Whatever! Prostitution is wrong and immoral. Woof!

Quagmire: No it's not. Gigidy!





Disclaimer: All characters are fictional (especially the talking dog). Minor plagiarism involved, but you can live with it PF.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

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[Feroza_Banu]

lol @ Seen nun gaaf ray hahahah

It is a matter of faith. and just that. nothing else. to believe in an unseen, untouched, unheard (voice wise) entity is definitely pure faith. One can not prove God exists as you can not prove God doesn't exist. believing God doesn't exist is a form of belonging to certain faith as well..... i am sure aethiests would debate this but i have a firm belief that believing God doesn't exist is a belief in itself... so an aethiest also belief in something... that belief is not to believe in anything.

[Shayesta]

Have you guys ever seen a wind? Yes, a wind?

[Pakhtunzai]

What sorta wind

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

If God exists, how do you know your GOD is the right one? As you can see there is already a problem with all this.

God is the same. All religions initially believed in the same God. Over time there have been interpolations and extrapolations in ALL religions, even Islam. The only difference is that the Quran has not been tampered with, even if Islamic customs have. But what matters is the Quran, and it has NOT been tampered with.

[AgnosticPashtana]

God is the same. All religions initially believed in the same God. Over time there have been interpolations and extrapolations in ALL religions, even Islam. The only difference is that the Quran has not been tampered with, even if Islamic customs have. But what matters is the Quran, and it has NOT been tampered with.

How can God be the same when the Greeks believed in a God for wine? a God for fire? A God for water?

Is it the same God?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I don't think God exists at all. I think this is just a character created to control the population.

Please expand on this idea of yours. A one liner is not enough.

[AgnosticPashtana]

How can God be the same when the Greeks believed in a God for wine? a God for fire? A God for water?

Is it the same God?

.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Lo and Behold all agnostics and atheists..Ooooops! I meant kafirs (Seen Nun Gaaf Ray personified). You cannot prove the nonexistence of XYZ unless you prove the existence first :P
God certainly exists..but, but..only as a concept, belief, or a fairy tale.If God is an intelligent designer, I have serious dubitos on his intelligence since at least one perfectly designed religion would have been a better alternative rather than to confuset us with Ek lac choobis hazaar peghambar/Jesus/Moses/Raam/Zoroaster etc. (alluding to our Arabian Princess Jasmine's and welcome-back-dearest-brother-MWMN's claims perfect intelligence).
God is a non-explanation that needs explanation through "intelligent apes"-designed concepts/beliefs to make him Omniscient; a non-information that needs the information through scriptures/prophets and rituals to keep him Omnipresent;and a nonexistent power which needs countless earthquakes, crusades, sucide bombs, Noah's floods to prove his Omnipotence.

lol @unhiddentruth: I wonder what's good/bad with the "character" of Pakistan, Indonesia, and India, the "populations bombs" ready to explode anytime! Duzzzzzzz

Different times needed different messages, until man had evolved enough and was mature enough to be presented with a final and complete message. Prophets were/are/will be the reason why the idea and concept of God was corrected. Our psyche intrinsically will attribute an unknown phenomenon to something. As such, in the past, the idea of a "higher power" was credited with many unexplainable experiences. In due time, these "unexplainable experiences" were being explained because knowledge had started to evolve. With time, the idea of a God became more of a political matter. However, its concept was always pure in definition, so God kept sending prophets to correct, and re-calibrate, the pure the definition. That is one of the reasons why we have so many prophets.

Today, the concept of God is a "joke" among some "intellects," because they think that they know it all now. What they fail to realize is that we have barely touched <1/infinity of all the knowledge that exists.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

A very interesting summary of the debate, I must say, LZ. Very realistic as well -- we hear it all the time.

SO ... in the end, it all boils down to faith. And that's EXACTLY why we have no right to decide whether someone's worshiping an invisible deity we call God or a another deity represented by a calf or fire or the sun or the stars or the universe or nature or statues. It's all about faith ultimately. Who're we to decide what faith should be for others?

Almost everything in life requires faith. Respect is one thing (something which the Quran has taught us before the 20th century Human Rights idea fermented), however, the truth is something else.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Just to add to this in some elementary terms:

Many of us argue that if God didn't exist, we humans wouldn't exist; we also argue that if God didn't exist, we wouldn't have the necessary elements absolutely essential for survival (e.g., water, oxygen, food). But can it not be that if life was really important and we really HAD to survive and live, we'd have OTHER means? Perhaps we wouldn't need oxygen, then, and need something else that'd enable us to exist and breathe and survive. No? Life would just be far more differently than that.

Of course, then we can say, "Well, yeah, even then, God would have been the sole provider and sustainer. You wouldn't be living unless He willed it so." One: We can't prove that; two: That's not the point. The point is that it (where does oxygen come from? Who provides our food? Who decided we NEED food and water to live?) is not a plausible argument for God's existence.

I believe the best argument the atheists have is: If God created the universe, who created God? Or how did God come into being? The theists don't have a good explanation for this, as their only answer is: "It's illogical to ask where God came from." How's that illogical? True, the chain HAS to break somewhere (that is, Z was created by Y was created by X was created by ...), but why're we deciding that it breaks right at the moment God comes up in the discussion? The universe cannot sustain itself, the universe can't be originated by itself -- but God can be? How and why? And how do we know this?

Ultimately, though, the reason many theists believe in God is that we NEED someone to rely on; we NEED hope, we NEED comfort, we NEED to know that something good will happen to us after all the hell we go through in life. And this is when the argument shifts to: Which deity to worship and praise? Which religion to follow and practice? How do you decide? Faith? . . . For quite a lot of us, yes.

So, are you saying that in simple mathematics there is a chance for us to equate 5 plus 9 to 83? I think not. We are created with certain parameters and if those parameters are tempered with great problems would occur.

Who created God? The question is silly. Let us assume that God does not exist, then how is it possible for us to have intelligence, and have the ability to design. So, as per the Atheist's argument: Who designed the designer? In other words, who designed the human beings?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

How can God be the same when the Greeks believed in a God for wine? a God for fire? A God for water?

Is it the same God?

Prophets came to correct the idea of the "higher being." Read the Republic and you will understand how Socrates tried to correct the misconception of God.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Momin welcome back, you were missed.

Aside from your faith, what makes you realize God exists?

My dearest and beloved Swat, dera manana!

God exists because everything in the universe has direction, so it is impossible for man to be here without purpose and direction.