Evolution and Pashtun nationalism...

[Roshina]

I am not here to tell the world what my credentials are or that "I have dedicated X years of my life to this or that" but lets just say that at the time when I was working for xerox parc you probably didn't know where to excrete.

That doesn't answer my question. You said there's a difference between reading texts and performing experiments. I asked if you do either at all. The last thing I want is for someone to tell me what all contributions they've (supposedly) made in this world.

And stop calling people little girls. That's a sign of a dumb, un-intelligent, and highly insecure person (for not having enough support for his argument in this case), and I'm sure you don't wanna portray yourself that way. Not to mention - your attitude and understanding of basic things like evolution make you appear and sound no older than a "little girl" either.

[akbarkhan]

That doesn't answer my question. You said there's a difference between reading texts and performing experiments. I asked if you do either at all.

I have already answered that question. PARC develops software components for biomedical use, working there means reading as well as experimenting!

[akbarkhan]

Akbar Khan wrora,

You worked for PARC????? That is amazing!! How long have you studied this subject our of curiosity?

Started working with algorithms as of 2003 but I have been involved in computing since 1995-6.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

So akbarkhan, if you're done misbehaving with gulalai, can you finally conclude what you're trying to say?

Is evolution false? Did it never happen? And is creationism, as explained by ancient texts and the Discovery Institute, correct?

[akbarkhan]

So akbarkhan, if you're done misbehaving with gulalai, can you finally conclude what you're trying to say?

Is evolution false? Did it never happen? And is creationism, as explained by ancient texts and the Discovery Institute, correct?

Zalmaye Khan,

There are those who argue for the sake of argument, then there are those who argue because they want to contribute. It is important to address these different personalities differently.

I conlude:

1. Regardless of our inclination towards evolution or creationism, we must not succumb to nationalism because it does not add up if we took a few steps back and looked at the bigger picture. Yes we are entitled to love our people but not at the expense of looking down upon others.

Remember, whether we are from Adam/Eve or a single evoluted organism - we are the same.

2. Evolution does happen to some extent, but not in the way the scientific community portrays it. There is a live radio debate between Stephen and Peter Atkins I highly recommend it.

In this thread I have not invoked the deity neither have I quoted scripture - please look at it from a purely scientific perspective. Lets suppose we evoluted from single cell organisms, what about the laws of physics then? Are they coincidental too? If so, how probable is it if we crunched numbers?

Read 1 book, you will be biased.
Read 2 books, you will get confused.
Read 3 books and make up your mind.

[akbarkhan]

Isn't it strange, when people offend our Prophet and our Deen it is ok but when someone calls someone a 'little girl' then they get warned by the moderators.

mashallah, what an achievement admin khan!

[Baygham]

Talk about science, not sentiments and emotions.

Mr science man, the study of emotions is science, I was trying to show you that love of ones culture is emotional, just like love of ones family, your love for the muslim faith.

This love is not based on evolutionary theory or genetic algorithms, it is based on early life exposure to loving experiences. Now I understand you may not have experienced such in relation to pashtoon culture and that is ok, in your case the love has been associated to the comforting realm of salafi islam. In that case, that is where you take shelter.
No need to desguise it as some triumph over science.

[Baygham]

I conlude:

1. Regardless of our inclination towards evolution or creationism, we must not succumb to nationalism because it does not add up if we took a few steps back and looked at the bigger picture. Yes we are entitled to love our people but not at the expense of looking down upon others.

Remember, whether we are from Adam/Eve or a single evoluted organism - we are the same. .

Are we to conclude that you see yourself as a Global citizen, you dont believe in boundaries, passports and such. In this global village, what do you see as the law that the citizens of this village share for a smooth society.

....
2. Evolution does happen to some extent, but not in the way the scientific community portrays it. There is a live radio debate between Stephen and Peter Atkins I highly recommend it.

In this thread I have not invoked the deity neither have I quoted scripture - please look at it from a purely scientific perspective. Lets suppose we evoluted from single cell organisms, what about the laws of physics then? Are they coincidental too? If so, how probable is it if we crunched numbers?

Read 1 book, you will be biased.
Read 2 books, you will get confused.
Read 3 books and make up your mind............

There are a lot of different views about the nitty gritty in Evolution. And it is not a done deal, scientist disagree, e.g. the original assumption that evolution happened in a linear fashion, is now changed to the idea of punctated evolution. Genomics, protienomics, algorithms in the genome etc are not exact sciences yet, they is a lot of shooting in the dark and these are signs of immaturity of the field not a prove of God.

[Baygham]

Isn't it strange, when people offend our Prophet and our Deen it is ok but when someone calls someone a 'little girl' then they get warned by the moderators.

mashallah, what an achievement admin khan!

you dont have a copyright to the islamic religion or its prophet. Both are being used to alter our lives, our choices, our happiness and our sadness. This gives us the rights to question them. We dont do it to hurt you, or to make a Jew in isreal happy. I being born in pakhtunkhwa to muslim parents have about as much right to this copyright as you. Now you use your share to embrace it or reject it is your right. I am least interested in what you do in life, my only interest is in what I am doing. Tommorow if you brought a cannon to my village and start shooting peaple with it and then demand that no body hate that cannon or you will kill them, well you show me the logic in that.

Now if you came with sweet stories of your grandmother, how she was a charming lady and distributed sweets in her memory (I know it is not allowed to distribute sweets in memory of dead in salafi islam, but just using it as an example) and someone calls her a bad name, then that someone is an idiot and deserves no respect. First you own that copyright and secondly you are doing no harm.

Salafi Islam is worse than a cannon 'toopa', it has killed many a pashtoons, it has dragged us back a few decades if not a century or two and you want me to treat it like your innocent sweet distributing grandmother.

[akbarkhan]

Salafi Islam is worse than a cannon 'toopa', it has killed many a pashtoons, it has dragged us back a few decades if not a century or two and you want me to treat it like your innocent sweet distributing grandmother.

I never have and never will advocate Salafi Islam, its pure assumption on your part!

You can draw cartoons, burn effigies or what ever else that gives shallow souls a buzz; I don't get offended.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Zalmaye Khan,

akbarkhan,

1. Regardless of our inclination towards evolution or creationism, we must not succumb to nationalism because it does not add up if we took a few steps back and looked at the bigger picture. Yes we are entitled to love our people but not at the expense of looking down upon others.

That's your opinion and as I started before, I differ with it. However, I see the solid reasoning you put behind your argument and it makes sense as to why you believe it to be true.

Remember, whether we are from Adam/Eve or a single evoluted organism - we are the same.

Yes, agreed.

2. Evolution does happen to some extent, but not in the way the scientific community portrays it. There is a live radio debate between Stephen and Peter Atkins I highly recommend it.

I'll search for the debate on Youtube. Given the fossil evidence, however, evolution has happened to a great extent on a very massive scale. Just take one animal - the whale - and you'll be fascinated to no end as you see the journey of millions of years.

Read 1 book, you will be biased.
Read 2 books, you will get confused.
Read 3 books and make up your mind.

akbarkhan, the problem I've had with this is that the authors rejecting evolution altogether do so on religious grounds. I haven't yet come across an established modern biologist, who is unaffiliated with any belief system that could make him biased, who would say that evolution is completely wrong.

[akbarkhan]

I'll search for the debate on Youtube. Given the fossil evidence, however, evolution has happened to a great extent on a very massive scale. Just take one animal - the whale - and you'll be fascinated to no end as you see the journey of millions of years.

It is not on youtube, its on another website. I will share the link with you when I am home.

akbarkhan, the problem I've had with this is that the authors rejecting evolution altogether do so on religious grounds.

True, but I am not rejecting it on religious grounds.

Lets suppose evolution was fact for animate beings, what about the laws of physics and maths? Have the laws that we know of today evoluted over time or are they static since the beginning of epoch? If they have evoluted then evolution takes into consideration the enviroment in which something evolutes, so the laws of outer space must be significantly different than on earth? If they are static then exactly what makes these universal laws, 'laws'?

I haven't yet come across an established modern biologist, who is unaffiliated with any belief system that could make him biased, who would say that evolution is completely wrong.

A sperm turning into human being within 9 months is evolution itself, but to state that evolution is the answer to all that is found beneath the heavens is nonsense.

I highly recommend a book called The Privilaged Planet, if you are not into books then watch the documentary.

[Baygham]

............................

Lets suppose evolution was fact for animate beings, what about the laws of physics and maths? Have the laws that we know of today evoluted over time or are they static since the beginning of epoch? If they have evoluted then evolution takes into consideration the enviroment in which something evolutes, so the laws of outer space must be significantly different than on earth? If they are static then exactly what makes these universal laws, 'laws'?



A sperm turning into human being within 9 months is evolution itself, but to state that evolution is the answer to all that is found beneath the heavens is nonsense.

I highly recommend a book called The Privilaged Planet, if you are not into books then watch the documentary.

.

we are not privy to absolute knowledge, the laws of physics have most certianly evolved, they may be what ever they are, but our understanding for sure is in evolution (meaning changing), Nobody takes newtonian physics as the benchmark anymore. Same is true of our understanding of the biological world. The lay term 'evolution' is very vast and means a lot of things and certianly is not the final word in understanding of biological sciences. Its like equating physics with newtonian laws of motion. The two are not the same. Evolution and biological sciences are not the same thing. Our understanding of biology and evolution will continue to change as long as human intelluct allows it to change.

I never have and never will advocate Salafi Islam, its pure assumption on your part!

You can draw cartoons, burn effigies or what ever else that gives shallow souls a buzz; I don't get offended.

I am not burning any effigies just saying Islam is not the only answer, never was and never will be. and i have as much a right to say that as you have to build 100million dollar phalic symbols in its name (referring to the new mosque in kabul funded by saudis). Would you allow me building a phallic symbol in kandahar for atheism or biology or physics, pashto anything.

Well, since you dogded a lot of what I said. Ok take the salafi out of my post above and then answer it. I will quote it again.

you dont have a copyright to the islamic religion or its prophet. Both are being used to alter our lives, our choices, our happiness and our sadness. This gives us the rights to question them. We dont do it to hurt you, or to make a Jew in isreal happy. I being born in pakhtunkhwa to muslim parents have about as much right to this copyright as you. Now you use your share to embrace it or reject it is your right. I am least interested in what you do in life, my only interest is in what I am doing. Tommorow if you brought a cannon to my village and start shooting peaple with it and then demand that no body hate that cannon or you will kill them, well you show me the logic in that.

Now if you came with sweet stories of your grandmother, how she was a charming lady and distributed sweets in her memory (I know it is not allowed to distribute sweets in memory of dead in salafi islam, but just using it as an example) and someone calls her a bad name, then that someone is an idiot and deserves no respect. First you own that copyright and secondly you are doing no harm.

Islam as envisioned by some is worse than a cannon 'toopa', it has killed many a pashtoons, it has dragged us back a few decades if not a century or two and you want me to treat it like your innocent sweet distributing grandmother.

While you at it, kindly answer some other posts addressed to you above as well, will be kind of you.

[akbarkhan]

Islam as envisioned by some is worse than a cannon 'toopa', it has killed many a pashtoons, it has dragged us back a few decades if not a century or two and you want me to treat it like your innocent sweet distributing grandmother.

I am more than happy to answer any question, but my posts are being moderated biasedly. Admin Khan has not addressed it so as much I like PF I will create an unbiased forum which in no way will be competing with this one but at least there atheist like yourself and Muslims like me can have open dialogue without any teenage girls getting emotional over chicken feed.

Now for the point you have put across.

I could turn the tables around and tell you how much some elements of Pashtunwali has contributed to our backwardness and misery. If Islam tell us to cut off the hands of a thief then what about Pashtunwali through which we sell our daughters for the highest bidder?

What about the revenge killings that start over a chicken and ends up for generations?

Islam has contributed alot to the world, but unfortunately I must confess that Muslims of the recent generations haven't.

brb, time for taraweh. will post the rest when I come back inshallah.

[Admin Khan]

Assalam-Alaikum.

Dear Akbar Khan,

according to my logs, the only edit I see in your post is from Qrratugai in which all she removed was the part in which you referred to her as a 'little girl'. I like to think we are educated and civilized people hence there should never be a need for such snark comments. But at the same time, you have the right to not show someone respect. I can never force you to respect me, Baygham, LZ or anybody. Respecting someone is your personal choice.

Yes I agree it was wrong of her to edit the "little girl" from your post[since that is all she edited]. We are humans and we certainly aren't perfect. Qrratugai isn't some evil person who is out to get you. I don't know your intention behind using the term "little girl" but I can certainly tell you how it appears, as a matter of fact, I am not even going to argue with you about all that since I think its redundant and pointless. But at the same time there is a certain level of respect that should be present when addressing someone. I can never picture myself debating with someone who addresses me the way you was addressing her and many others. Just because someone opposes your views does not mean you have to belittle them. Just because Gulalai attempted to refute your post does not mean you have to call her a little girl. With all due respect Yousefa, you referring to users as little girls is uncalled for. I can further elaborate on it if you want but as someone whom I respect, you have the right to even call me a little boy. Go right ahead, I will still embrace you as a brother. Its fine with me.

With that being said, I will speak to her about this and I apologize on her behalf, I really do. She will not edit the text referring to members as 'little girl' again from your posts. And do me a favor, please do not exagerrate the situation on hand. Its not like someone edited your post to portray a different message. Please try to understand the situation on hand. We have had hundreds of streamed debates in the past, everyone has received the right to voice their opinions. We have members who aren't shy when it comes to criticizing a certain article. I myself have been the subject of criticism in several threads. I myself have been insulted by one of your close buddies and I took with a grain of salt, I kept it moving because it was within the frameworks of our rules.

PF ever since its inception has been unbiased and we will always remain unbiased. If you want to create new Forums, go right ahead be my guest, I can even assist you in creating them.

Ka de khwa bada swalay ya, no za da zra sakha der bakshana darsa ghwarama. You should know me better than that by now.

Staso wror,

-Admin Khan